25 Replies Latest reply on Jan 25, 2016 2:31 PM by Chuck- AllieCat Video

    Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug

    danfedida

      We film and edit live shows ranging from 1 hour to 3 hours in length, recorded on DVCAM and digitised to DV widescreen preset. Final edits are encoded to Mpeg 2 DVD.

      We are experiencing a bug across all 6 edit suites where a random frame from somewhere in a production is inserted further on in the
      timeline, causing a quick flash/strobe. This occurs only in the encoded file and is not visible in the original sequence. Encoding
      in Premiere, Encore or Media Encoder has the same results. Proof can be supplied if required.

      This is a SERIOUS problem, especially as we may not be able to spot it before shipping the final DVD (in large numbers)

      All systems are kept up to date with the latest updates but the bug has persisted since purchase.

       

      We are using Adobe CS5 Production Premium, Windows 7 64 with NVIDIA Quadro FX 3800

       

      Many thanks for any help that can be supplied.

        • 1. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          I don't recall anyone else experiencing this same behavior.  It's even more odd that you have it across 6 machines.  That suggests there is something about those 6 rigs, or something in the workflow, that in unique compared to the general Premiere Pro user.

           

          That can be difficult to track down, so instead I will suggest the use of a third party encoder.  The free HC Encoder is faster and will produce a better looking DVD than any method included with Adobe software.  You will also need Avisynth to use it, but in my view, the results are worth the effort.  And it will likely solve this problem as well.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
            danfedida Level 1

            Thanks Jim,

             

            I did wonder if it was a particular hardware set-up, but only 5 of 6 rigs are the same, the remaining 1 has also suffered this glitch at least once. The only piece of hardware they all share is an Quadro FX 3800 card - but i can't imagine that would be the cause.

             

            Will take a look at the HC Encoder, but a real CS5 selling point for me was the dynamic link to streamline the processes.

             

            Dan

            • 3. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
              Cavemandude Level 1

              I have the same problem with CS5 and CS5.5. Here is a link to it being discussed in the Adobe Encore forum:

               

              http://forums.adobe.com/message/3985079

               

              This is not an easy thing to spot which is probably why more are not reporting it. Let's face it, how many people sit there and check every single frame of the MPEG-2 transcode in Encore or watch the finished DVD for a single-frame flash? It's very is easy to miss.

               

              Randy

              • 4. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                how many people sit there and watch the finished DVD for a single-frame flash?

                 

                Well, I can say that any professional should be doing precisely that.  It's just a bad business model to not do quality control on the product before you let the client see it.

                • 5. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                  Cavemandude Level 1

                  I'm just finishing up a 3 1/2 hour film transfer job that is on 3 DVD's. I normally go Firewire out to my set top DVD recorder and have never had to watch every frame of the DVD to make sure that everything was ok. Same with videotape transfers. Were talking 100's of hours of footage here on a monthly basis. I do fast forward through the each DVD and check the chapter points but I would be out of business if I had to watch every film reel and videotape after it is transferred to DVD in real time to check for problems. Actually, since I edit all film transfers using Premiere every frame is checked during the editing process. I shouldn't have to do that again when making a DVD in Encore.

                   

                  So, as a result of this problem with random frames popping up using Encore, I now have to export a DV AVi file out of Premiere use a competitors $50 consumer video editing software just to do an MPEG-2 transcode then import that MPEG-2 file back into Encore and add about 70 chapter points manually instead of the chapters automatically importing in from a Premiere sequence. Not what I call an efficient workflow anymore.

                   

                  Randy

                  • 6. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                    NuVo_ Kid

                    My post is above but I couldn't help but notice that you said you also have the FX-3800 card, that makes me wonder if it might be the cause. I have done some testing since my post and determined the following:

                     

                    1. It shows up in the Timelines in PP and therefore it is NOT an encode problem. I thought it was an encode problem because I only caught it when using Encore. Turns out if go back to PP and play that section in the T/L, viola, there it is.

                     

                    2. When it does show up in the T/L the rogue frame is always the last frame from the last clip immediately preceeding the clip the rogue frame shows up in.

                     

                    3. The rogue frame inserts itself between correct frames and so simply removing the frame restores the video to its correct state. Not a feasible solution but works as an emergency fix.

                     

                    4. I asked Adobe if they were listening and they sent me a trouble report form, which I completed and filed - that is the last I have heard from them.

                     

                    Rick

                    • 7. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                      danfedida Level 1

                      The issue we have is slightly different to this. The flash frame does not

                      appear in the original source footage, nor the timeline. ONLY after an MPEG2

                      encode.

                       

                      I have spent countless hours with Adobe's "Video Experts" on the problem and

                      demonstrated the problem to them. Needless to say they are not experts. The

                      outcome of it all was simply that they are "aware of the problem" and to

                      look out for a fix in the next update (5.0.4)

                       

                      I have learned that I can avoid creating the rogue frame by simply exporting

                      straight from Premiere, completely bypassing any use of Dynamic Link,

                      including Media Encoder. Chapter points et al can still be retained via this

                      method.

                      • 8. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                        Cavemandude Level 1

                        Random frames are not in my Premiere CS5 timeline either only when transcoding using Encore. I can export the entire timeline as a DV AVI file with no random frames but once that same file is transcoded in Encore CS5 random frames appear.

                         

                        Can you explain how you are retaining chapter points exactly? Are you importing that file into another program besides Encore that can recognize the chapter points. From what I've read, CS5 Encore now only recognizes chapter points from Premiere sequences and not video files. I couldn't locate an "Embed Chapter Points" check box anywhere in Adobe Media Encoder when exporting from Premiere.

                         

                        I've tried exporting a DV AVI file from Premiere CS5 with a timeline that had chapter points but when I loaded it into Encore CS5 no chapter points show up.

                         

                        My PC uses an NVIDIA GTX 580 video card (1.5GB video RAM) with an i7-930, 12GB RAM.

                         

                        Randy

                        • 9. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                          danfedida Level 1

                          I can't say I've tried to export an avi with chapter points included. Maybe

                          look in the metadata panel in export settings?

                           

                          I encode using the MPEG2-DVD option and then export from within Premiere. It

                          gives greater flexibility than Encore does. For example, I don't think

                          Encore can do a 2 pass encode.

                           

                          This should also retain all your chapter points.

                           

                          Dan

                          • 10. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                            Cavemandude Level 1

                            I looked all over the metadata settings, couldn't find it.

                             

                            Encore can do a 2 pass encode, I've made my own custom presets from the default for that, and should have the same flexibility as it does in Premiere.

                             

                            Ok, I've exported using the MPEG-2 DVD option in Premiere also but have yet to find a way to retain the chapter points when that file is imported into Encore. Like I said, from what I've read is that Encore CS5 no longer allows chapter points to be brought in with video files, only Premiere sequences.

                             

                            Randy

                            • 11. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                              danfedida Level 1

                              If you're not seeing the chapter points when importing into Encore, the only

                              thing I can think of is the tick box in the metadata settings:

                               

                              'Export Master Speech Track and Sequence Markers' - is this option ticked?

                               

                              Dan

                              • 12. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                Cavemandude Level 1

                                Ya, I had that clicked already but I did get it to work by exporting an MPEG-2 file finally. I was using the MPEG-2 preset export setting which exports an .MPG file. When I switched the setting to MPEG-2 DVD which created an .M2V file and imported that into Encore the chapters showed up. Only problem was that video file didn't have the audio that was in the Premiere timeline. I assume with the MPEG-2 DVD setting you need to export the audio separately and then import that in also.

                                 

                                Randy

                                • 13. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                  danfedida Level 1

                                  Good stuff! Yeah as standard Premiere will export the audio separately.

                                  Usually as a WAV by default. You'll probably find it in the same location as

                                  the m2v. It will also need transcoding in encore.

                                   

                                  I set my audio to export as ac3. You get a better idea of final output size

                                  and doesn't need further transcoding.

                                   

                                  Dan

                                  • 14. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                    Cavemandude Level 1

                                    Yep, the associated WAV file was in the same folder. I'm still surprised that exporting a DV AVI file or .MPG with embedded audio from Premiere doesn't include the chapter points when importing it into Encore. For some reason I thought I was able to do that in earlier version of Encore.

                                     

                                    I guess I need to do some more testing for random frames using that method which no longer requires importing a sequence into Encore or transcoding in Encore.

                                     

                                    Now when you say you bypass Media Encoder when exporting from Premiere to avoid the random frame problem, doesn't Premiere basically use Media Encoder also just like Encore would to transcode and create these files?

                                     

                                    Randy

                                    • 15. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                      danfedida Level 1

                                      I think the bug lies somewhere in the Dynamic Link feature. In other words,

                                      whether it's Encore or Media Encoder it's using the DL feature to access the

                                      Premiere sequence. I guess when you encode within Premiere, hitting Export

                                      rather than Queue, it bypasses the Dynamic Link function and thus the bug.

                                       

                                      All just guess work of course. I just can't believe how little Adobe cares

                                      about such a crippling bug for one of their showcase features!

                                       

                                      Dan

                                      • 16. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                        dkitsov Level 2

                                        Unbeliavably I am having the same issue now 3 years later than the original poster. This is nuts.

                                        • 17. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                          Mark Mapes Adobe Employee

                                          From my reading of the full thread, there are at least two different flavors of this problem, distinguished chiefly by whether the rogue frames ever appear in Premiere or only in Encore's product. Which is true for you, dkitsov?

                                          Exactly what version of Premiere Pro? Encore?

                                          Does this happen with all of your clips? All of your sequences?

                                          If you encode the same sequence twice, do these glitch frames appear at exactly the same place?

                                          • 18. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                            dkitsov Level 2

                                            Transcoding from mxf dnxhd master.

                                            A certain frame from an ealrlier part of the footage is inserted into the same space later in the clip when mpeg 2 dvd preset transcoding. Transcoding to mpeg-2 dvd of this particular clip always results in the frame showing in the same place. This is regardles of cbr, vbr 1 pass or vbr 2 pass. Transcoding from the same master to any other format/codec has no issues.

                                            This frame, obviously, is not out of place in a master clip. this is on a project that is 1h:16min long

                                            • 19. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                              Mark Mapes Adobe Employee

                                              And the version?

                                              • 20. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                                dkitsov Level 2

                                                Running latest release of cc on windows 8.

                                                Additionally there is no difference if using ame or if trying to encode from a file in pre pro.

                                                • 21. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                                  Chuck- AllieCat Video Level 1

                                                  Frustrating!!!! I can find many people who have seen this issue, but no one has any answers!!!! including adobe.   

                                                  • 22. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                                    Chuck- AllieCat Video Level 1

                                                    I have had the Radom frames appear in the Encore MPEG2 transcodes of my latest 3 projects.  All imported Seqs from Premiere Pro CS5 via Adobe Dynamic Link.  I can Export from ppro to mpeg2 without the issue, but video quality is not as good for titles and video.  The PC is a 2 Zeon, 256GB RAM, 1TB SSD Program Disk, 3TB Video Source Disk, 2TB RAID0 Sctratch and processing disk.  Nvidia Quadro K4000 video

                                                     

                                                    Also have another PC not as powerful, but it does not have the issue

                                                     

                                                    Any new or helpful info would be great.

                                                    • 23. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                                      Chuck- AllieCat Video Level 1

                                                      Mark,   Is there any help for this issue? 

                                                       

                                                      Random single frames from another part of my video appear at different locations in my Encore MPEG2 transcodes.  The sequences were imported into Encore from Premiere Pro CS5 via Adobe Dynamic Link.

                                                       

                                                      The random frames do not appear in the original Premier Pro timeline, only in the Encore transcode and the burned DVDs.

                                                       

                                                      I have tried importing into Encore using Adobe Dynamic Link with both Mercury GPU acceleration turned on and Mercury Software only with the same results.

                                                       

                                                      I can export directly from Premiere Pro with the MPEG2 for DVD setting, but video and title quality suffers and Encore does not automatically adjust transcode to fit on the DVD.

                                                      There are many people on the Adobe forums that have had this issue on CS4 - CC, but no one seems to have found a resolution.

                                                       

                                                      I Also have another PC not as powerful (FX1800), but it does not have the issue.


                                                      System Config:
                                                      Windows 10 Pro
                                                      Dual Xeon E5-2637 v2 @ 3.50GHz
                                                      256GB RAM
                                                      Nvidia Quadro K4000 Graphics Card
                                                      1TB SSD Boot/Program Disk
                                                      4TB Video Source Disk
                                                      2TB RAID0 Sctratch and processing disk


                                                      Software:
                                                      Premiere Pro CS5
                                                      After Effect CS5.5
                                                      PhotoShop CS6 (Installed from Master Collection)
                                                      Media Encoder CS5
                                                      Media Encoder CS5.5
                                                      Media Encoder CS6

                                                       

                                                      Chuck

                                                      crmajor@comcast.net

                                                      • 24. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                                        Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        I have no solution, but I'll add my thoughts, and also hope Mark has some insight.

                                                         

                                                        First, Mark's comment from post 17: "From my reading of the full thread, there are at least two different flavors of this problem, distinguished chiefly by whether the rogue frames ever appear in Premiere or only in Encore's product."

                                                         

                                                        The full grid of possibilities includes hardware on/off, and in Encore, using "transcode now" with AME rather than the Sonic authorcore transcode engine.

                                                         

                                                        A number of tests can be done to try to isolate which flavor of the problem occurs. For example, exporting a lossless intermediate, and bringing that into Encore to transcode using the automatic setting, using AME or Encore.

                                                         

                                                        I agree that of the many threads with the rogue frame symptom, they do not reach solutions, and there appears to be no fix. I believe this is probably a symptom with multiple causes.

                                                         

                                                        Chuck, I don't recall whether you get the same result whether you use the Encore transcode or Encore using AME. But a) you appear not to have the problem on direct PR or AME export to mpeg2-dvd and b) you get the rogues on one machine and not another. Amazing.

                                                         

                                                        As to workarounds, many Encore users, and this includes a number who have tested many workflows for quality, avoid dynamic link. The advantage of automatic transcoding (really allowing Encore to calculate bitrate) can be done manually. There have been other problems with Encore dynamic link, so it became frowned on. It worked for me in the SD days, but with PR CC, there is no option anyway.

                                                        • 25. Re: Premiere MPEG2 encode frame swapping bug
                                                          Chuck- AllieCat Video Level 1

                                                          Stan, Thanks for the input…  I look forward to seeing if Mark has any further thoughts as well.

                                                           

                                                          I have done much testing, but reviewing an hour long reference clip each time can be daunting.

                                                           

                                                          The random frames only happen when PPRO sequences are imported into Encore via Dynamic Link. 

                                                           

                                                          They only appear in the encore transcodes, not in the ppro sequence or captured video. 

                                                           

                                                          I have tested with MPE GPU Acceleration Turned on and MPE set to Software Only with the sane results.

                                                           

                                                          Here is what I have tested.

                                                          • Encore – Import PPRO Seq via dynamic link – Transcoding done by Encore Build function – FAIL (Inserts Random Frames)

                                                           

                                                          • Encore – Import PPRO Seq via dynamic link - Transcoding done via “Transcode Now” function – FAIL (Inserts Random Frames)

                                                           

                                                          • PPRO Media Export via MPEG2-DVD via EXPORT function – Both Automatic and custom settings were GOOD (No random Frames)

                                                           

                                                          • PPRO Media Export via MPEG2-DVD – via Queue to AME function – Both Automatic and custom settings were GOOD (No random Frames)

                                                           

                                                          I have also uninstalled all Adobe Software (CS5 PPRO & CS6 Master Collection) and reinstalled just PPRO CS5 to eliminate any multi version confusion.

                                                          I have deleted and updated graphics drivers for the Quadro K4000

                                                           

                                                          At this point, the only thing left I can think of are issues with the Graphic Card, the fact I have 2-Xeon processors, or Windows 10.   I am out of ideas at this point.

                                                           

                                                          I can change my workflow (although I like using DL), I just hate having an expensive, powerful workstation that has issues.  Makes me wonder what else my pop up in the middle of a big project. 

                                                           

                                                          Thanks

                                                          Chuck