20 Replies Latest reply on May 4, 2011 11:39 AM by FelixUnderwood

    PCI-Express Solid State Drive

    Jim_Simon Level 9

      Hmmm.  This is a new idea.  And with 600 MB/s reads!

       

      http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=30118

        • 1. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          Forget it Jim, it is another big hype and very untrue.

           

          Even the 1.2 TB version only achieves 19 MB/s random write on 4 K blocks in the best case and 18 MB/s in the worst case. Any conventional disk will leave this in the dust. For instance a € 38 Samsung F3 1 TB will perform these writes way faster and do not cost a whopping € 5,299 for the VeloDrive 1.2 TB.

           

          SSD's are not ready for prime time yet and the Sandforce controllers on this drive are outdated and underspecced.

           

          Marketing departments claim read and write speeds of around 1,000 MB/s using utterly wrong measurements and can not be trusted. In writing this drive can not even keep up with a FW or USB external with figures around 18 or 19 MB/s for uncompressible data, like video.

           

          Read the info carefully and the only conclusion is: WAAYYY too slow for editing purposes.

           

          For around 1 TB of space, I rather spend € 38 than € 5,299 for an underperforming SSD, that only empties my wallet and gives me mistaken bragging rights.

          • 2. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
            Jim_Simon Level 9
            19 MB/s random write on 4 K blocks

             

            Who cares?  A 4K file would barely contain the "A" in a title reading "A Harm Millaard Production".  Video reads/writes are faaaaar bigger, and sequential rather than random.  And when you look at those numbers, it's impressive.  I'm curious why you think those numbers are misleading, though.  The AS-SSD measurement software seems legit enough.

             

            Now as to the price of the thing being worth it, you may have a point.  But I haven't seeny any pricing yet, myself.

            • 3. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
              RjL190365 Level 4

              Jim,

               

              Though I don't always agree with Harm, I agree wholly in this particular case. Every single one of the Sandforce-based drives regardless of capacity deliver much, much slower performance in the real world than their benchmarked results would have implied. And I'm not criticizing that particular SSD per se; this applies to all of the Sandforce-based drives regardless of brand. Worse, OCZ's reputation has been less than good of late.

               

              Even with very large files, the Sandforce-based SSDs' write speed is no faster than the average 5900RPM "green" hard drive. And that "green" drive can write at speeds of at least 85 MB/s.

              • 4. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                Jim_Simon Level 9

                "The OCZ Vertex 2 Pro is the fastest single-controller MLC SSD I’ve ever tested, and it’s not even running final firmware."

                 

                http://www.anandtech.com/show/2899

                • 5. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                  Jim_Simon Level 9

                  "The SandForce-powered OCZ Vertex 2 Pro outpaced Intel's server-bound,  single-level-cell X25-E in many of AnandTech's benchmarks, including  synthetic sequential read, sequential write, and random read tests."

                   

                  http://techreport.com/discussions.x/18227

                  • 6. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                    Jim_Simon Level 9

                    I don't know, guys.  I'm seeing some positive reviews of Sandforce based hardware, from sources I generally consider reputable.

                    • 7. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                      RjL190365 Level 4

                      Jim,

                       

                      Those results are just that- benchmarked. Try running REAL-WORLD apps on one of the Sandforce-based drives, and you know what I mean.

                      • 8. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                        Jim_Simon Level 9

                        OK.

                         

                        "We know that many of you are not going to take your new SSD home and start running random benchmarks like the ones we used. Chances are you rely on sites like this one to do that for you, but once in your rig you will instantly notice the change. Quick boot ups, fast application loading, and silence are just a few advantages. A heavy load really needs to be applied to actually get the Agility 2 to break a sweat."

                         

                        http://www.pro-clockers.com/storage/1550-ocz-agility-2-sandforce-based-60gb-solid-state-dr ive.html

                        • 9. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                          Jim_Simon Level 9

                          "Works great on Mac Pro. Super fast.  I used this as a drive to work from for Audio recording for my Mac Pro late 2009 model in my studio. It works flawlessly."

                           

                          "Very fast drive and easy to install with ASUS mother board."

                           

                          "Outstanding performance."

                           

                          " I installed this in a sluggish laptop with an AMD dual core processor  2gb. It's really fast now. No tweeking yet. Amazing difference."

                           

                          http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227531

                          • 10. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                            Jim_Simon Level 9

                            I don't know.  The new card coming out still looks interesting.  I mean, it may not have the same impact on mankind as the wheel, but the idea of putting the SSD chips in a PCI-E card to get around the SATA speed limits is curious at least, no?

                            • 11. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                              FelixUnderwood Level 2

                              Jim,

                              I'm stunned at how some people on this forum seem to resist (even hate, it seems) certain advancements in technology, because of cost alone. They won't say ANYTHING good about it. It's just a terrible product because it costs too much to them so they never mention any benefits to help you draw your own conclusion as to whether it's right for your application and budget. Yet some of these same people will urge you to buy a large RAID array with an expensive RAID controller when a simple double RAID configuration, working off the moboard's RAID controllers suffices fine for most of the modern file formats I imagine most of us are editing with. If you buy a high-performance sports car, are you going to be happy with cheap tires on it? Well, if you're never pushing it to its high-performance levels, then I guess it would be a waste of money to buy high-performance tires. But if you're pushing your editing rig to it's limits, and I know I am, then performance is a sum of all the parts. Why have a weak link in the chain if you can afford not to? ($500 is chump change for the piece of mind alone that I get having one less mechanical part in my machine, not to mention blocking airflow, producing heat, noise, more power consumption, less reliability than an SSD.) I don't recommend buying an SSD for anything but a system drive at this point but I use mine to store AE & PPro project files as well. It's also the best drive to have your Windows Page File stored on because it's so darned fast. In fact, I'm about to upgrade to OCZ's new Vertex 3 series. I can't imagine building a new computer without having an SSD (again, not yet for media), especially a high-performance editing rig that I'm making my living on. I had an old uncle once who refused to give up DOS for YEARS. He swore by it, until he begrudgingly migrated to Win XP (thank Goodness he didn't migrate to Millenium or he'd probably have gone back to DOS!) Oh, and one more unbiased resource for you: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/vertex-3-sandforce-ssd,2869.html

                              • 12. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                Harm Millaard Level 7

                                Felix,

                                 

                                Your choice of the Vertex-3 is much better and can be used nicely for the boot disk, because it uses a newer generation Sandforce controller, which allows random write speeds around 224 MB/s in contrast to the VeloDrive. The other contrast is the capacitors used. Data intergrity on the Vertex 3 is less than on the VeloDrive, because of the use of supercapcitors on the latter, offsetting the advantage in speed of the Vertex 3.

                                 

                                PCIe SSD's may become interesting at the moment new controllers appear that can bypass the SATA midlayer and only use a PCIe NAND controller with trim support.

                                • 13. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                  FelixUnderwood Level 2

                                  Harm, you just reminded me of one very important disclaimer that I left out in my previous post: An SSD, and nothing less than a SATA III SSD at that, is THE LAST upgrade one should make, IN MY OPINION. Spend the money on beefing up everything else first: Processor, 16-24 gigs of RAM, GPU, etc. I'm just saying that if you're a power user with enough work to justify it, and you've maxed out your build, I think an SSD is worth its cost if you're looking for the next performance step. I'm not saying it makes sense for everyone, it's just that I come to its defense when people say it's not worth it at all. And I'm also not panning massive RAID arrays with expensive RAID controllers. It depends on your typical workflow. I just like giving balanced opinions to help the person asking for the advice make up their own mind and not to unequivocally proclaim a technology good or bad based on my individual wants and needs.

                                  • 14. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                    Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Here is a good example for a completely SSD system with the Project drive being your OCZ PCIe SSD.  It is a dual CPU EVGA SR2 motherboard and it is in 125th place on the PPBM5 results page.

                                     

                                    PCIe-SSD.jpg

                                     

                                    With only a Median category for the Disk I/O it is definitely not worth a second thought

                                    • 15. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                      JEShort01 Level 4

                                      Felix,

                                       

                                      I agree completely with your SSD assessment, and after various benchmarking have elected to use SSDs for OS, programs, and win7 cache, but not for anything else.

                                       

                                      Bill,

                                       

                                      While SSDs are slower than hard drives for the rigors of Premiere CS5, and very expensive per GB, they are not totally pathetic either.

                                       

                                      A recorded run that I made on my i7-860 box using 100% SSDs (in RAID 0) resulted in a 199 second net score, which would be tied for 30th place on today's PPBM5 leader board, and was only 4 seconds behind my best time for that motherboard/CPU combo.

                                       

                                      Times for the all SSD setup (Total = 199; Disk I/O =76, MPEG2 = 38, BR = 80, and TL render = 5) were not quite as fast as using a larger hard drive RAID 5 setup (Total = 195; Disk I/O = 75, MPEG2 = 37, BR = 78, and TL render = 5), however there is only 4 second difference. Additional hardware and CPU OC settings for both of these runs are the same as the posted JES1 on PPBM5.

                                       

                                      Laptop users with unlimited budgets take note; 3-spindle laptops with 3xSSDs (large ones) in RAID0 could kick some tail!!!

                                       

                                      And desktop PC users relax, SSDs are not faster for CS5 and they are way more expensive! Treat yourself if must have a SSD for your OS and programs, but don't waste your time or money chasing SSDs for Premiere CS5.

                                       

                                      Jim

                                      • 16. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                                        Jim,

                                         

                                        Due to measurement errors in the PPBM benchmark, because we can only use the accuracy of Windows file data, which are limited to one second accuracy, I do not consider a one second difference meaningfull. It might mean the difference between xx.49 (rounded to xx) and xx.51 (rounded to xx + 1). Your results show that there is no discernible difference between SSD's and conventional hard disks in performance, just like Bill's earlier example.

                                         

                                        BTW, that is why Bill and I during testing often use runs of 10 or more tests to average out these measurement differences, but we feel that is a bit much to ask from other users.

                                         

                                        The point is - and that is one of my pet topics, BFTB (Bang-for-the-buck) - that SSD's are way too expensive and too under-performing. Do not misunderstand me, SSD's are nice, fast, quiet, cool, energy efficient, compact, and pretty reliable, but BFTB-wise, they are still a disaster. I may embrace them in the future when the price comes down and the performance goes up, but IMHO they are not there yet.

                                        • 17. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                          JEShort01 Level 4

                                          Harm Millaard wrote:

                                           

                                          Jim,

                                           

                                          Due to measurement errors in the PPBM benchmark, because we can only use the accuracy of Windows file data, which are limited to one second accuracy, I do not consider a one second difference meaningfull. It might mean the difference between xx.49 (rounded to xx) and xx.51 (rounded to xx + 1). Your results show that there is no discernible difference between SSD's and conventional hard disks in performance, just like Bill's earlier example.

                                           

                                          BTW, that is why Bill and I during testing often use runs of 10 or more tests to average out these measurement differences, but we feel that is a bit much to ask from other users.

                                           

                                          The point is - and that is one of my pet topics, BFTB (Bang-for-the-buck) - that SSD's are way too expensive and too under-performing. Do not misunderstand me, SSD's are nice, fast, quiet, cool, energy efficient, compact, and pretty reliable, but BFTB-wise, they are still a disaster. I may embrace them in the future when the price comes down and the performance goes up, but IMHO they are not there yet.

                                           

                                          Harm,

                                           

                                          Bill had just mentioned a PPBM5 score of 301 seconds using all SSDs and I mentioned that I had a run that was 199 seconds, also using all SSDs. Statistics aside, this is a big difference and one that I thought was worth mentioning.

                                           

                                          Regarding SSDs for CS5, I agree with you with the exception being a high-dollar laptop, where they could have a place (same as I just posted above).

                                           

                                          Regards,

                                           

                                          Jim

                                          • 18. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                            Considering the version of Adobe for that test with the SR2 and the specs, I would not put to much stock in that one.

                                             

                                            Anandtech is probably the best review site around and their data is 99%+ rock solid. If they tested it and reported results then they are accurate.

                                             

                                            SSD's like any other hardware have their place. They greatly increase laptop performance. They enhance compositing programs that do allot of temp file caching such as Fusion. They also make editing in layer based compositing programs such as AE far more user friendly on larger projects due to the speed of working with so many layers and loading those projects. They also give you ideal performance when you link through the Windows variable cache directory such as exporting out of Premiere through Media Encoder. The current prices of SSD drives is actually pretty good for the current performance when compared to other drives such as 10K drives. Now with the advent of the Blackmagic SSD recorders, the use of the drives in this market will increase significantly. I would not use a performance test that evaluates one aspect of the workflow for media content creation and use that for all others. There is a reason the animation/3D market is moving away from large arrays over to SSD drives.

                                             

                                            Eric

                                            ADK

                                            • 19. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                              RacerX2oo3 Level 1

                                              We've been working with several of the Fusion IO Extreme cards (The extreme versions support RAID support between multiple cards although I haven't used them this way).  I been extremely impressed with the performance.  The price tag on the other hand is extremely high, but you can't beat the simplicity.

                                               

                                              Sean

                                              • 20. Re: PCI-Express Solid State Drive
                                                FelixUnderwood Level 2

                                                I was awaiting a reply from Eric, who has among the best, unbiased advice of anyone anywhere when it comes to computer hardware as evidenced by his balanced response above. As I've been saying all along, it's not just about media I/O disc speed...