9 Replies Latest reply on May 10, 2011 8:12 AM by Colin Brougham

    Premiere CS5 Rendering questions

    ScottieB1

      I have a few questions that have been bugging me for a while - no idea why I waited until now to pose them here...

       

      Anyway, why is it that when using a format that is already compressed, say h264, mpg2, mpg1 what have you (yes, I get all kinds of awful sources from certain clients) premiere uses the default render settings of i-frame mpeg? Why not the default? For eample, if someone wants to make some simple trim edits to an mp4 file, why can't I just make the cuts, click the "use sequence settings" button in the eport dialog, and then get an mp4 that matches the original, and which was NOT re-rendered on every frame, but gives me a full-quality (or equal to the original) mp4? If I use Quicktime Pro 7 for example, I can make trim edits without re-encoding every frame, even if I do get an mov wrapper. Same for Final Cut - it has the "re-encode every frame" check box (though I am aware it doesn't handle all the formats Premiere does).

       

      Is this a pipe dream?

       

      Also, why when I have a timeline with many audio tracks, but all except 1 are turned off, does Media Encoder take several minutes to prepare all of th audio files it doesn't need to render? For example, I was doing a reel where we were auditioning music tracks - I gave each song its own track in the timeline. There were maybe 8 tracks, but when I went to render all but 1 of them was off. But when I hit the render button, Media Encoder took a few minutes while it processed EVERY SINGLE audio track - even the ones that aren't active.

       

      Maybe I'm missing something but I feel like Media Encoder and Premiere should be smarter...

       

      Hope this doesn't come off as hating - I have moved 90% of my editing to Premiere from Final Cut, so I'm a happy camper overall :-)

       

      Thanks for any insight,

      ScottieB

        • 1. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
          Colin Brougham Level 6

          Anyway, why is it that when using a format that is already compressed, say h264, mpg2, mpg1 what have you (yes, I get all kinds of awful sources from certain clients) premiere uses the default render settings of i-frame mpeg? Why not the default? For eample, if someone wants to make some simple trim edits to an mp4 file, why can't I just make the cuts, click the "use sequence settings" button in the eport dialog, and then get an mp4 that matches the original, and which was NOT re-rendered on every frame, but gives me a full-quality (or equal to the original) mp4? If I use Quicktime Pro 7 for example, I can make trim edits without re-encoding every frame, even if I do get an mov wrapper. Same for Final Cut - it has the "re-encode every frame" check box (though I am aware it doesn't handle all the formats Premiere does).

           

          Is this a pipe dream?

           

          Yep. Premiere re-encodes every frame, at least with interframe formats like H.264 and MPEG-2. "Match Sequence Settings" is a pretty worthless option; it will always use MPEG-2 I-frame. You'll have to look into third-party apps for "smart encoding" of interframe formats.

           

          Also, why when I have a timeline with many audio tracks, but all except 1 are turned off, does Media Encoder take several minutes to prepare all of th audio files it doesn't need to render? For example, I was doing a reel where we were auditioning music tracks - I gave each song its own track in the timeline. There were maybe 8 tracks, but when I went to render all but 1 of them was off. But when I hit the render button, Media Encoder took a few minutes while it processed EVERY SINGLE audio track - even the ones that aren't active.

           

          Annoying, indeed. Basically, AME queuing results in a copy of your sequence being made, and for whatever reason, the audio goes along. I'd suggest just making as many duplicates of your sequence as you need, with one audio/music track in each. It will queue up much faster. Feature request for a change: Adobe Feature Request/Bug Report Form

          • 2. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
            ScottieB1 Level 1

            Thanks for the quick reply, Colin. Any suggestions about such editors that can edit those formats? I know a few but could always use to know about more - those formats can be quite finicky and don't always work the way they did last time!

             

            Someday my constant complaints to clients about source formats will be heard... right??? (Don't worry, I won't hold my breath!)

            • 3. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
              Colin Brougham Level 6
              Any suggestions about such editors that can edit those formats?

               

              Well, I guess my Socratic response would be, "Why do you want to do that?" Very infrequently do I find that I, personally, need to go back to the very same format that I was editing. Most acquisition formats don't work so well as delivery/transmission formats, so by necessity you're going through some sort of transcode/re-encode.

               

              For the ocassions where I need to break up a clip like this, I use MPEG StreamClip (for H.264) and I've got an old version of TMPGEnc MPEG Editor that works fine for MPEG-2. I have no experience with it, but Mainconcept makes a codec plug-in pack to enable "smart rendering" in Premiere: Codec Suite: MainConcept. It ain't cheap

              • 4. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
                ScottieB1 Level 1

                Haha Colin... as I tried to insinuate earlier, I don't WANT to have a need for this, but I often do. I do a lot of work for an ad agency and they are constantly having to do things like trim slates off of commercials, or just cut the demo out. They SHOULD learn how to request the proper materials from the post house, but they don't. So with the file already hugely compressed, I try to avoid more compression when possible.

                 

                I use Streamclip all the time, and it works most of the time, but it is reliant on Quicktime, and the particular flavor of MPG2 they often get doesn't work with quicktime (even with the MPEG2 playback component) - and thus it doesn't work with Streamclip. When necessary I can always convert or use premiere and recompress (or any other number of ways), but me being the thorough video geek I am (and a stickler for quality) -- I am always looking for better ways. :-)

                 

                Thanks for the info!

                • 5. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
                  Colin Brougham Level 6

                  Alright, I'm pickin' up what you're droppin' I'd be totally lying if I said I neeeeever had to do anything like that

                   

                  Yeah, MPEG Streamclip--despite it's name--isn't the best for MPEG-2 because of it's reliance on QuickTime's wretched implementation of an MPEG-2 decoder. I've had fairly good luck with the one I mentioned, TMPGEnc MPEG Editor 3. I use an older version (might even be v.1), and for what I need to do with it, it's perfect. There are some freeware ones out there, but I inevitably come back to this. If you do any amount of MPEG-2 hackery, I'd recommend it for the small price.

                   

                  That said, if you actually have to work with this stuff, e.g. edit it, there's really no point in trimming it or converting it. You're not going to get any better results by pre-converting it and then editing it in Premiere; for the most part, the damage has already been done. If I'm mixing MPEG-2 or H.264 stuff (and the occasional FLV garbage one of my clients sends me... grumble) with other footage, I just chuck it in a project and go to town. That's kind of the beauty of Premiere's handling of this kind of stuff...

                   

                  Out of curiousity, what is usual way you get the MPEG-2 material? DVD?

                  • 6. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
                    ScottieB1 Level 1

                    Oh most definitely - if I have to do any actual editing (as opposed to a 'trim' - my own uses of the terminology) I'll use premiere and LOVE the way CS5 deals with multi-formats (though mixing PAL and NTSC is still not great fun when they are looking for high quality). Worst case I'll convert everything to ProRes first (like if the people I'm working for don't have Premiere).

                     

                    I've heard of that TMPGEnc program before back in the day (like 2001 maybe - when I was first learning about DVDs) but never pulled the trigger on it. Maybe I can convince the client that we need it. Hehe...

                     

                    The mpegs come from multiple places. The agency has a Telestream clipmail that they still use to make MPEGs sometimes (on the rare occasion that they get a digibeta master). These days, though, it is more common for them to come right from the online distribution company they use. This place houses all the spots and also handles sending them to the networks. They also double as an archive, and so they make the MPG2 from the master they get from the post houses (usually IMX50 or TGA sequence). The mpgs are 12mbit, 4:2:0 color space, and do NOT work in quicktime. This is their own 'internal' format that they use for presentations and whatnot. The best answer I've gotten as to why they still use mpg2 is "legacy" - which I imagine means they have had that clipmail box forever and just continue to use what they know. When possible I request the masters, but usually that isn't possible.

                    • 7. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      They SHOULD learn how to request the proper materials from the post house, but they don't.

                       

                      One solution would be for you to become their new full service production company.  That way, if anything ever needs changing, you have all the camera originals.  (Plus, it probably pays better.)

                      • 8. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
                        ScottieB1 Level 1

                        JSS1138 wrote:

                         

                        They SHOULD learn how to request the proper materials from the post house, but they don't.

                         

                        One solution would be for you to become their new full service production company.  That way, if anything ever needs changing, you have all the camera originals.  (Plus, it probably pays better.)

                         

                        Heh... believe me, that is NOT what I want. I've been in there enough hours to know that 1. The only thing that keeps me sane is that I don't have to go there every day. and 2. Even if I did work there, none of my advice would be heeded. This much I already know. Besides, it's a big agency - simply not how it works. For one thing, they don't have, and never plan to have a single production company. They bid and bid and $$ is prime concern. SO many reasons why that's not a good plan in this instance.

                        • 9. Re: Premiere CS5 Rendering questions
                          Colin Brougham Level 6

                          Scott (or Scottie, whichever you prefer ),

                           

                          If you have a short sample of the bizarro MPEG files you get, I'd be happy to test it out and see if it opens up in the MPEG editor. Again, it's an older version, but I would assume (knowing what that means) that if it works there, it would work in the newer version. I'm not sure of the limitations of the TMPG trial. Shoot me a PM if you'd like me try it out.

                           

                          The problem with editing MPEG source is that you either get some atrocious consumer-centric application or some ridiculously over-priced enterprise class application that is just way too far out of reach for common folk. That's a big reason that I've been pretty happy with TMPG...