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My Red Giant plug-ins work fine--no better, I'd say. There's nothing phenomenally different about the guts of Premiere that would drastically alter third-party plug-in performance.
From Todd Kopriva's blog: You do not need new versions of plug-ins for Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 « Premiere Pro work area
Thanks Colin, so how do you work with these plugins BTW? Rendering all the time you apply it or switch it off then on at export ...
Depends what it is. I don't use a lot of third-party plug-ins, to be honest. I use Trapcode Shine a fair bit, for example, and in most circumstances, that plays back in real-time with SD and occasionally with uncomplicated HD sequences. I've got the Digieffects Delirium plugs as well, and those sometimes are real-time, sometimes not. Red Giant MB Looks, on the other hand, destroys real-time playback, especially on HD stuff like DSLR footage. I just edit first, and apply effects last.
For what it's worth, I've rendered a sequence about six times since I got CS5 a year ago
I do a lot of weddings and web videos and the need for HD has become a paramount importance. I shoot in HDV and edit in Matrox sequence, and if I apply Magic Bullet Looks, or saphire genarts film looks there will be no real time playback. In most cases I have to render the sequence to get smooth playback in the Matrox sequence.
Yes, that's going to remain the case for the time being. I don't know if it's even possible for third-party plug-in authors to write their plug-ins so that they use GPU acceleration--I'm not aware of any currently. Admittedly, I've gotten a bit spoiled on what GPU acceleration can do: I frequently have sequences with 6-8 tracks of mixed material including graphics and uncompressed animated elements, along with a variety of effects. Amazingly, I can keep stacking stuff and get real-time playback, which is a terrific workflow enhancement. That can fall apart pretty quickly the second you use a non-accelerated (that is, third-party) effect into the mix. You're obviously aware of this, but I'm just wistfully dreaming of the day when we don't even have to deal with this "red bar, yellow bar, green bar" business
As it is, if you're doing anything with highly-compressed HD, like HDV, AVCHD, or DSLR, you'll want to invest in the most powerful CPU you can afford. Even though you can use accelerated effects on this footage and get real-time playback, this is significantly more taxing than doing the same with something like DVCPRO HD (my primary HD format). I can get much better performance on my overclocked i7-920 with DVCPRO HD than AVCHD or DSLR footage--I'm starting to work with more of that material, and I've noticed a drastic difference in the fluidity of the editing experience. Obviously, since this is the way forward, I'm already saving my dimes for something like an i7-980x or 990x, which is the max for my motherboard. That should make an improvement more so than a different GPU (though I'm already using a GTX 480).
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> I don't know if it's even possible for third-party plug-in authors to write their plug-ins so that they use GPU acceleration--I'm not aware of any currently.
Several third-party plug-ins use CUDA processing. GenArts Sapphire plug-ins and some of the Foundry's plug-ins come to mind.
But do they work with Adobe's implementation of CUDA, nee "hardware MPE?" That was the crux of what I was trying to say: that they would still be "red bar" effects in Premiere.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong: GenArts and Foundry plugs are waaaay out of my league )
Ah, I see your question.
No, I don't think that a third-party plug-in that uses CUDA has a way to signal to Premiere Pro that it "should" get a yellow bar. I'm not 100% sure of that, though. I'll ask our SDK guy.
Is the bar color the significant issue here though? The real question is are the plug-ins accelerated within Premiere Pro? Do they actually render faster with a CUDA card than without?
> Do they actually render faster with a CUDA card than without?
I've actually only tried these plug-ins in After Effects, but I can confirm that they do take advantage of the CUDA hardware. And that makes the point even more strongly, because After Effects itself doesn't use CUDA. A plug-in can be written to take advantage of the CPU, OpenGL on the GPU, CUDA on the GPU... whatever.
...but none of these third-party plug-ins leverage hardware MPE, so the full-quality, real-time playback that we'd expect from the accelerated plug-ins that ship with PPro isn't going to happen.
(I know I'm belaboring the point, but what with the immense amount of confusion surrounding CUDA, MPE, etc., it's worth making the clarification.)
That only adds to my confusion, Colin. My understanding is that hardware MPE and CUDA processing are essentially the same thing. So if the effect takes advantage of CUDA, it should run smoother in Premiere Pro if you have a CUDA card. (And if I understand Todd correctly, it will do so even if you have MPE in software only mode, simply because the effect itself uses CUDA, without needing the host software's permission to do so.)
My understanding is that hardware MPE and CUDA processing are essentially the same thing.
Mmhmm... no. Hardware MPE uses CUDA to do what it does. CUDA is an Nvidia "thing" (I don't know or care enough if it's a technology or platform or programming language or whatever) which Adobe uses to bring us the magic of hardware MPE. If I recall correctly, CUDA is basically an environment in which programming code can be written to use the GPU as a processor for certain things. In light of that, Adobe uses it to accelerate a lot of processes in Premiere Pro (not just effects), whereas other third-party manufacturers use CUDA to accelerate their plug-ins and effects. But just because something takes advantage of CUDA processing, that doesn't mean that it's also written to be accelerated by hardware MPE. At present, that's a specific subset of things that is sourced from Adobe only.
So if the effect takes advantage of CUDA, it should run smoother in Premiere Pro if you have a CUDA card. (And if I understand Todd correctly, it will do so even if you have MPE in software only mode, simply because the effect itself uses CUDA, without needing the host software's permission to do so.)
Unquestionably. Or, rather, assumably, that is the case. But that still doesn't mean that it's going to be accelerated by hardware MPE. That is limited to whatever is installed when you install Premiere; nothing third-party.
That's still confusing. What else does hardware MPE entail besides CUDA processing? As I understand it, they're fairly synonymous with each other.
What else does hardware MPE entail besides CUDA processing?
I think that's the advantage of hardware MPE versus software MPE. MPE in general is a number of enhancements to the Premiere Pro code, such as it being 64-bit; using a supported (or hacked) GPU lets you access some other things. Todd discusses those in CUDA, Mercury Playback Engine, and Adobe Premiere Pro (in reference to CS5) and in Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 improvements in CUDA processing and the Mercury Playback Engine. From the first link:
What is the Mercury Playback Engine, and what is CUDA?
Mercury Playback Engine is a name for a large number of performance improvements in Adobe Premiere Pro CS5. Those improvements include the following:
- 64-bit application
- multithreaded application
- processing of some things using CUDA
Everyone who has Premiere Pro CS5 has the first two of these. Only the third one depends on having a specific graphics card.
CUDA is a technology (architecture, programming language, etc.) for a certain kind of GPU processing. CUDA is an Nvidia technology, so only Nvidia cards provide it.
So, Nvidia provides CUDA, which Adobe uses to build hardware MPE. By transitive property, hardware MPE sort of is CUDA, but anything else using CUDA (e.g. third-party effects) are not hardware MPE. Therefore, any of those third-party effects--which may render faster thanks to their "CUDA-ness"--will still not be processed by Adobe's GPU acceleration aka hardware MPE.
I don't know. It sounds like you're dealing with semantics here. In the real world, third-party effects that are processed on the GPU will be sped up, whether you call it hardware MPE or something else. The end result is the same - faster processing. And that's all that really matters. Because if I understand correctly, there is nothing more that could be added by hardware MPE to speed things up even further. You'd just be calling it by a different name, is all.
It sounds like you're dealing with semantics here.
Not at all. It's the difference between using a GPU-accelerated effect in Premiere and a non-accelerated effect. Any effect specifically written to be GPU-accelerated by hardware MPE will playback in real-time with the appropriate hardware; any effect that is non-accelerated by hardware MPE might playback in real-time, but isn't guaranteed to. Perhaps it would make more sense to differentiate by calling them MPE-accelerated (built-in), GPU-accelerated (third-party), and non-accelerated (built-in and third-party). Third-party effects may be accelerated by CUDA (or whatever other protocol they might use), but they're not accelerated by hardware MPE. As the bit I quoted from Todd's post says, MPE is more than just CUDA and GPU.
It's a pretty simple test: throw an RGB Curves effect and maybe a few other MPE-accelerated effects on a clip, and play it back with GPU acceleration turned on in Premiere Pro. Now, throw a third-party purportedly GPU-accelerated effect on the stack, and play it back. Depending on the clip and system, things are probably going to degrade--maybe not to the point of playback being completely stunted, but it's out of the hardware MPE pipeline at that point.
There are quite a few differences between a third party effect using GPU acceleration on their own and an effect being included as part of the Mercury Playback Engine. As an example, a third party GPU effect must upload the frame to the GPU, compute, then read that frame back to main memory with several conversions in between. These steps are skipped for MPE GPU effects. There are also lots of scheduling differences that we can take advantage of with GPU acceleration to make everything run smoothly. None of this is currently exposed to third party effects, but that would obviously be desirable.
Thanks, Steve--was hoping you'd weigh in on this.
Being able to use some of the swanky third-party plug-ins that are available in real-time would be pretty awesome...
There are also lots of scheduling differences that we can take advantage of with GPU acceleration
Ah, now it's making more sense. Thanks.
there are 3 posts that i would like to synthesize and discuss all regarding 3rd party plugin effects
gpu accelerated (non MPE)
and gpu (MPE accelerated)...
and 3rd party plugins competing for 'clock cycles'
1,239 posts since
May 27, 2008
2) this post, itself..."Third party plugins in cs5"
3) another recent post (i can't locate it at the moment, but it seemed to be an aside comment not related to the main topic thread...
it dealt with the fact that GENARTS SAPPHIRE FOR CS5 had conflicts sharing the gpu with other gpu accelerated effects and the advice was TO TURN OFF GPU ACCELERATION (which sort of defeats the purpose of having a cuda card...)
1) is there a link to gpu cuda MPE accelerated effects?
2) do gpu cuda (NON MPE) (3rd party plugins) accelerated effects fight with each other for 'clock cycles'?
3) are there any 3rd party plugins that DO take advantage of not only CUDA, but also MPE? or is MPE strictly an ADOBE thing that only effects coming from ADOBE will take advantage of the MPE? (John's thread from 2010 never received a complete answer to my knowledge...)
i think this thread mentions 'semantics' but it isn't. there seem to be 3 types of effects for PPRO cs5:
1) effects (non cuda) (non MPE)
2) cuda effects (non MPE)
3) cuda effects (accelerated by MPE)
for the optimum work flow effects type #3 seems to be the best...
any thoughts, advice, clarification will be appreciated...
TRY before you BUY--that would be my advice. Most plug-ins are available as a trial.
I purchased DigiEffects Glow plug-in for PrPro CS 5.5 while on sale at Toolfarm and the performance
is markedly worse than the same plug-in in AE.
MBL2 and CII for CS5.5 have some issues, but Red Giant is working on them.
i have been trying for the last hour to find a list of
1) HARDWARE accelerated MPE effects within PPRO from ADOBE
2) a list of HARDWARE accelerated MPE effects from 3RD PARTY PLUGINS...
anyone have any links, please...
3) Does ADOBE allow for 3RD PARTY PLUGINS manufacturers to access MPE or do they only do CUDA 9non MPE)?
sorry to keep asking the same questions over...
2) a list of HARDWARE accelerated MPE effects from 3RD PARTY PLUGINS...
MPE is a feature of Adobe Premiere PRO CS5 + only.