1 2 Previous Next 55 Replies Latest reply on Nov 18, 2011 2:25 PM by nickdbomb

    Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards

    BJBBJB1 Level 1

      I assumed this has been discussed in the past, but my searches turned up empty.

       

      I have been running CS4 PPro for a while but am upgrading to PPro 5.5 and also want to move from ATI to NVIDIA to get the CUDA Mercury playback enhancement.

       

      I am glad I checked as I found out that only a very few consumer (non Quadro) cards are listed.

    • GeForce GTX 285 (Windows and Mac OS)
    • GeForce GTX 470 (Windows)
    • GeForce GTX 570 (Windows)
    • GeForce GTX 580 (Windows)
    •  

      I want to go with the consumer line as my PC is used for other things also, and is not a dedicated editing PC.

       

      So is it true that these are the only ones that work?  Or is it like a lot of PC areas where things work (like memory and motherboards) but not every one is tested....

       

      I saw a website where it said you had to hack a file or something in order to get other Cuda NVIDIA cards to work in the Mercury mode wtih Pr Pro even if they were equal or higher in power than these...

       

      Thanks for the help,

      BJBBJB1

        • 1. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
          GlueFactoryBJJ Level 1

          Take a look at this thread.  It should answer your question...

           

          http://forums.adobe.com/thread/840311?tstart=0

           

          Also, from what I've been reading here recently (been lurking as I'm also looking for a CUDA card to help with PPro), it appears that most of the current generation CUDA cards will work, so long as they are entered into the .txt file you will find reference to toward the end of the above thread.  It boils down to bang for buck and budget.  Well, that and system as you need to manage system bottlenecks that vary depending on task/configuration.

           

          Scott

          • 2. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
            BJBBJB1 Level 1

            Thanks for the link, that is the "hack" I read about.  However after spending $$ on a PC upgrade, then on the 5.5 software, it seems kind of chancy to roll the dice with a hack that might no longer work with a driver or adobe patch.

             

            On the other hand I have spent three days looking at the GTX 470 570 and 580 "tested" cards trying to figure out which specific model and brand does not sound like a jet engine.  I have been an ATI/AMD fan but am considering switching to get the Cuda support.  And my current ATI card is quiet but still provides good video...but no CUDA.  Seems like the GTX570 might be the quietest of the three and most reasonable. But still a lot more card than it seems like I need.

             

            Pretty frustrating process.  It sure seems like Adobe could have tested a larger slice of the consumer-line NVIDIA cards.

            They added all of one with the 5.5 upgrade so I am not holding my breathe that there will be many more in the next few months.  I mean if a GTX285 is on the list and works, horsepower wise there has to be other ones they could test!

             

            Anyway thanks!  Any other opinions welcome RE: specific cards.

            BJBBJB1

            • 3. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
              GlueFactoryBJJ Level 1

              I guess the question is whether or not you think that Adobe is likely to reduce the number of cards supported and/or hard code it into the program.  Personally, I think that CS6(+?) might fully support CUDA cards.

               

              FWIW, I just did the hack with my GTX 560 Ti card and it worked.  I'm running the PPBM right now.  Unfortunately, my AMD Opteron 165 based, DDR (no number) RAM based system has a LARGE number of bottlenecks that are killing performance, BUT it is much better with the 560 card than without!

               

              The previous card I had was an ATI Radeon X1950XTX.  However, I've given up on them after they didn't provide drivers for it for Win7.  Yeah, the Vista 64 drivers did work, but without support I have a pretty expensive anchor.  IMO, Nvidia, on the other hand, is much better than ATI in driver support.  So I'm going to stick with them for awhile.  Just my experience, though.  Hey, I've got a couple old 6600GT cards and Nvidia has 64-bit Win7 drivers available.  And that is an older card.  Anyway...

               

              The GTX 570 should provide more than sufficient power for the current iterations of Premiere.  ATI does provide an "equivalent" (OpenCL), but Adobe, for whatever reason, isn't supporting it.

               

              I hear you about Adobe supporting a larger number of CUDA cards.  I know CUDA programmers and they tell me that the code is not limited by cards.  You call the driver/card CUDA features and it works.  So I'm at a loss to understand that.  It just limits their customer satisfaction.  It isn't like they aren't big enough to do the testing.

               

              FWIW, the GTX 560 Ti appears to work well with CS5 and I would imagine would work well with CS5.5.

               

              Good luck with your adventures.  As I purchase additional hardware, I'll try to update here.

               

              Scott

              • 4. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                BJBBJB1 Level 1

                Thanks for the thoughtful answer and input.  I'll just have to decide what direction to go.  Those bigger cards are defnitely  noisier than what I am used to.   Perhaps the attitude is to get the CUDA card with the specs and noise-level I am comfortable with and use it with the hack for now.

                Thanks for the input on that one card.  Would be nice to have some more 3rd party input.

                 

                Thanks again,

                BJBBJB1

                • 5. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                  RFENG Level 1

                  I have a CUDA equipped Nvidia card that is alos not listed.  I have wondered about the cards, because they were originally developed for gamers--of whicih I am not but strangely was told by a few folks in the forum that the gaming horsepower had NO positive application to CS4 for any purpose.

                   

                  Now everyone is talking about CUDA and the benefits of the MPE.  That's really disappointing becuase I had in my hands two GTS 285 video cards (monsters indeed).  My motherboard is an Nvidia as well and fully support SLI (parallel processing from both cards, again primarily somethign the gamers need). This was about a year ago and Dell had agreed to allow me to keep them as a swap since they were unable to supply the much lower SLI cards, one of which was defective.  I sent them back based on the info and was provided a pair of GTS 240 but these cards fully support and are equipped for CUDA.

                   

                  I would surely like to know how this patch works and if anyone is working on a more updated list of compatible Nvidia cards.  If anyone knows if the 240 has been added to the CS5 list, I would sure like to know.  I assume that the MPE is standard in CS5 as well.

                   

                  If anyone has patched CS5 for the GTS 240, please advise.

                   

                  Thanks!!

                  • 6. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                    CUDA and MPE did not make an appearance until CS5, so CS4 cannot benefit.

                     

                    Also, two nVidia cards in SLI (used in 3D and gaming) will not be used by PrPro, and may even cause issues.

                     

                    Good luck,

                     

                    Hunt

                    • 8. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                      BJBBJB1 Level 1

                      Todd,

                       

                      Thanks for the link, Adobe's input on these issues and participation here is appreciated.

                       

                      I certainly understand about compatibility and testing.  I used to work with a software company in a different field that had about 1% of the headcount and resources Adobe has.  However when other hardware that affected the software came out, all hands were on deck to test the new hardware and come out with a patch or state the software does not work with the new hardware.

                       

                      It still boggles my mind with all of the resources at Adobe's disposal, they cannot stress test a card ASAP when it is announced. Or actually, as a partner, I am sure pre-release runs are made available so testing should really be done BEFORE the card is released.  I understand "lessons were learned" with Encore.  However, the current trickle of testing and validation may be an over-reaction.  And if a card is tested and it does NOT work, that should be stated also!  Currently we cannot tell if a card is not listed because:

                       

                      A) Testing is not complete (overtime would be appreciated) but is in-process with a conclusion coming.

                      -or-

                      B) It was tested and found not to be compatible.  At least then you would know you would NOT want to buy this card knowing full "blessed" testing and validation would never be forthcoming on this particular card.

                       

                      So list all the current CUDA cards.  State which ones were tested and are NOT compatible, and which ones are still in testing.  I do not believe that all the current cards that are not listed are still in testing....

                       

                      Anyway, just one opinion from someone that continues to spend the money to upgrade to new suite versions....

                       

                      BJBBJB1

                      • 9. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                        Taverino Level 2

                        I've been wondering why Adobe has to be in the position of testing each and every NVIDIA card. Isn't CUDA a mature enough standard that Adobe could simply state that MPE GPU acceleration requires a CUDA card with x amount of video RAM and CUDA drivers at release y or later? Does Adobe or anyone else test every motherboard/processor/BIOS combination? Has there been a single case reported here on the forums of an "unsupported" card with adequate RAM not compatible with MPE GPU acceleration? What does Adobe or NVIDIA know about CUDA that creates this confusing situation?  

                        • 10. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                          blazer003 Level 1

                          I will say this.  The reason that Adobe only supports the cards it does is not testing.  It's because the cards not listed are not 100% functional.  However, the only issue that I've run into is with very large stills (larger than 1920x1080.  We're talking 8 Megapixels +)  When trying to edit with these the computer gives me an error and says that my graphics card is not up to snuff.  Seems like they could make a work around for this though and be compatable with a lot more cards.  I still wonder if Adobe and Nvidia had an agreement that they'd only support higher end Nvidia cards to help Nvidia out, but maybe they just need the horsepower to work with stills.

                           

                          Anyway, other than this little hiccup, everything else I've found works great with my GTS 450.

                          • 11. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                            BJBBJB1 Level 1

                            Agreed.  That would make all the sense in the world.  And if an NVIDIA driver made one of the cards NOT support Mercury, then Adobe should patch their product to re-enable support.

                             

                            It is like a game software writer saying their game requires DirectX11, but we'll let you know what cards have been tested and approved to work with OUR game....and if you buy any other card, even if you can get it to work today, there is no guarantee a patch we push someday may make your unapproved card stop working.

                             

                            If the support of certain video cards so finicky, my guess is that the Adobe CUDA support might not be as rock solid as it should be.

                             

                            As to your comments on motherboards, etc., I can imaging the howls if a certain other software company did this with one of their software products...


                            BJBBJB1

                            • 12. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                              SteveHoeg Adobe Employee

                              In our past attempts at GPU acceleration, before CUDA, we tried the approach of supporting most available cards. This ended up causing a ton of problems and contributed greatly to Premiere being considered unstable. For CS5 we decided this was not good enough and made the decision to only focus on a restricted set of cards. We are only certifying cards that we have individually tested and optimized for. This takes a lot of time per card and we will never be able to support the entire range available if we are not willing to compromise on quality. CS5 & CS5.5 are significantly more stable and performant than previous releases only because we were willing to say 'no' to a lot of things.

                              • 13. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                RFENG Level 1

                                Thanks Steve, that was Apple began doing a long time ago which is why the statement one hears most often in a comparison to a PC "Mac's just crash like PC's"  yep there's a reason.  Having said that I still primarily use a PC because of the selections. 

                                 

                                Back to CUDA, what is the general feeling of the percentage in performance improvement, in rendering time, for HD rendering where CS5 supports the card?

                                 

                                Much thanks!!

                                • 14. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                  BJBBJB1 Level 1

                                  Steve,

                                   

                                  Thanks for the input and I certainly appreciate the attitude to get it right.  However when there are multiple cards with the pre-requisite number of cores and memory, I guess "focusing" on a smaller selection of cards is one thing.  Deciding not to test the other cards to see if they too would qualify is another. 

                                   

                                  I think the snafu before you were talking about was an inadequate implmentation and programming.  There was no intention to isolate tested cards at that time.  There are many software applications that have done this successfully so not sure whey it failed.  But Adobe went from that approach to one where like 2 or 3 current consumer (non-Quadro) cards are listed.  That's like swatting a bug with sledgehammer.

                                   

                                  The bottom line for the cards on the list that are still current (and not discontinued) they are very noise and power hungry units.  There are less power-hungry and noisy units (like the just announced and now-shipping GTX560 (noTi) ) that certainly have the horsepower of some of the older cards there. However we will have to wait and guess if Adobe finds the GTX560 "test worthy" or not.

                                   

                                  Or if what your answer truly means is that for CS5 and CS5.5 Adobe has decided to ONLY test the cards listed (that is those that were available at the time CS5.5 was programmed) and there will not be ANY more added to the list until CS6. Well then that is incredibly myopic and locks in your users to old technology until CS6 comes out.  And THEN every card everyonebought during the CS5/5.5 rollout will then be "verified" for CS6.  Is that really what is being said?

                                   

                                  As far as the Apple comment, Iabsolutely agree for the Apple version of the product.  However to play in the PC arena, it is different for every software manufacturer. I have seen software that utilize something unique on the AMD piece or the NVIDIA that list MANY cards for their implementation.  For example another NLE I use seems to have no problem testing for the PC market.  Actually I think Adobe should support both ATI and NVIDIA but that's another story....

                                   

                                  But anyone, thanks again for participating in the discussion.  Always appreciate input from the source here.

                                   

                                  BJBBJB1

                                  • 15. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                    Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                    > Or if what your answer truly means is that for CS5 and CS5.5 Adobe has decided to ONLY test the cards listed (that is those that were available at the time CS5.5 was programmed) and there will not be ANY more added to the list until CS6. Well then that is incredibly myopic and locks in your users to old technology until CS6 comes out.

                                     

                                     

                                    In the several months since CS5 was originally released, we have released three updates that expanded CUDA support---both adding new cards to the list of certified cards and expanding their capabilities.

                                     

                                    For details, see these articles:

                                    http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2010/09/premiere-pro-cs5-5-0-2-update.html

                                    http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2010/12/premiere-pro-cs5-5-0-3-update.html

                                     

                                    That's in addition to adding support for other hardware, like RED Rocket cards.

                                     

                                    So, I think that you can take this consistent evidence from past behavior that we have no intention of being "incredibly myopic and [locking our] users into old technology..."

                                     

                                    We're going as fast as we can while still ensuring that we deliver the most stable and reliable software that we can. As a member of the After Effects team---who have tried (and failed) to support "every" OpenGL card---I stand behind the Premiere Pro team's decision to be more conservative with CUDA cards. No one benefits when an overly optimistic assumption that "well, if this card works, then this one must, too" turns out to be false---as it inevitably will.

                                     

                                    If there's a specific card that you want us to develop and test for, let us know with a feature request.

                                    • 16. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                      In our past attempts at GPU acceleration

                                       

                                      I've been using Premiere since before it went Pro, so I think you'll understand when I say "Huh?"  When the hell did GPU acceleration happen before CUDA?

                                      • 17. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                                        have tried (and failed) to support "every" OpenGL card

                                         

                                        Just out of curiosity, exactly why did those cards fail?  Was it a different reason for every card?  Was it a driver version issue?  Was it a hardware issue?  Was it an AE programming issue?

                                         

                                        Like others, I too am of the mindset that if you develop software to work with certain standards, then it should work on any hardware that meets or exceeds those standards.  I assume you guys don't test every available CPU that meets minimum specs, do you?  You just assume any CPU that meets those minimums will work. And as far as I know, they do.  Why is this any different?

                                        • 18. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                          Taverino Level 2

                                          I appreciate evrything that Adobe has done to improve performance and stability, but the response here from Adobe implies a lack of faith on their part of the robustness and maturity of CUDA as a standard they can count on. I assume they have good reasons for this position but I repeat the question I posed upthread: Have there been any reports of an "unsupported" GPU with adequate RAM having problems with MPE?

                                           

                                          I also found interesting Steve's comment:

                                           

                                          We are only certifying cards that we have individually tested and optimized for.

                                           

                                          So does this mean that there might be different branches in the MPE code based on the GPU? If so, then it seems Adobe has had to engineer around what I would say are inadequacies in the CUDA interface for apps like MPE and that may be the basis for their cautious approach. Regardless, I am loving the speed and stability of CS5.5. If I had to, I would gladly limit my selection to only certified GPU's.  

                                          • 19. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                            BJBBJB1 Level 1

                                            Todd,

                                             

                                            Thanks for your perspective and willingness to participate. 

                                             

                                            I checked those links and I did see one non-Quadro card adding via one of the patches, the GTX470 that was released in March 2010 (perhaps I missed some others). I will leave others to define what type of outlook that is for most users.  However, it appears Adobe is internally very firm and proud of their current process and progress which is great.  I would just suggest that they also listen to their customers as reflected on the blog and forum.  Certainly the RED support and Quadro additions were welcomed by corporate/professional users.

                                             

                                            Why am I focused on non-Quadro cards?  Because Adobe markets this program to all users, not just corporate & professional users.  And I think consumers or amateurs with multi-use or mutli-NLE machines mostly use non-Quadro cards.  I've been using Adobe and ATI/AMD for years and am just upgrading to 5.5 and making the switch to NVIDIA.  I did not even know the Cuda support was only for certain cards only until I saw the little asterisk ....certainly the buzz about the CUDA support did not make that real clear until you got to the fine print.

                                             

                                            I also think testing could still be done in advance of a card's release, and when a card comes out, Adobe, states right away whether it was tested and approved or not.  Just my opinion.

                                             

                                            Hope to see lots more cards added to 5.5.  Thanks again!

                                             

                                            BJBBJB1

                                            • 20. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                              shooternz Level 6
                                              Hope to see lots more cards added to 5.5.  Thanks again!

                                               

                                              You only need one.

                                              • 21. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                GlueFactoryBJJ Level 1

                                                JSS1138 wrote:

                                                 

                                                have tried (and failed) to support "every" OpenGL card

                                                 

                                                Just out of curiosity, exactly why did those cards fail?  Was it a different reason for every card?  Was it a driver version issue?  Was it a hardware issue?  Was it an AE programming issue?

                                                 

                                                Like others, I too am of the mindset that if you develop software to work with certain standards, then it should work on any hardware that meets or exceeds those standards.  I assume you guys don't test every available CPU that meets minimum specs, do you?  You just assume any CPU that meets those minimums will work. And as far as I know, they do.  Why is this any different?

                                                IMO, these are "apples and oranges" issues.  AE's use of OpenGL, as I understand it, is quite a bit more complex than using a GPU for playback/encoding.  OpenGL is an "open" standard that has gone through many iterations and is left up to the manufacturer to implement and "certify" compliance (not the GPU maker).  Because of this, with AE trying to use this standard, something that didn't really get fully "baked" until game makers jumped on board.

                                                 

                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opengl

                                                 

                                                While it sounded good on paper, the reality was much more fragmented until the bugs surrounding implementation and functionality were resolved.

                                                 

                                                On the other hand, CUDA is a "closed" standard, created, directed, and supported by a hardware manufacturer.  Nvidia, for whatever competitive reasons, apparently learned from the problems with the OpenGL (and other standards) implementation/adoption issues and appears to have created a standard that was pretty well baked from the start.  Also, since they are driving its development/adoption, they ahve been able to maintain a level of control/compliance that just wasn't possible for OpenGL.

                                                 

                                                The point I'm trying to make is that, just like Intel/AMD CPUs, the drivers simplify software implementations and CUDA compliance is managed and required/verified before a manufacturer can release a "CUDA" product.  Because of this, implemtation of function calls have far fewer possible points of failure.

                                                 

                                                IF Adobe has experience that is different than this, then they should say so.  Based on the successful implementation of "the hack" by so many people, I would guess that Adobe is being overly cautious, perhaps at the behest of manufacturers of "Quadro" hardware, to justify that hardware's rediculously high prices compared to "GeForce" cards with, apparently, similar performance.  Hey, who doesn't like a good "conspiracy theory", especially when one appears to fit the circumstances.

                                                 

                                                One other point, based on personal experience.  Nvidia drivers have always been more stable than ATI.  Having repeatedly tried ATI cards over the years, I have had nothing but various compatibility/stability problems from them.  When they work, the can be faster, at a particular price point, than "equivalent" Nvidia hardware.  However, with Nvidia, I load the drivers and "it just works".  Don't get me wrong, Nvidia has released some buggy drivers in the past, but my experience, they have, in general, been much more stable.  I'm not a gamer who requires the nth degree in performance.  I need a system that works and one that I can work with.  Nvidia has provided that for me over the years in a way that ATI hasn't.

                                                 

                                                Back to the topic, I think that Adobe really needs to consider opening up support for ALL CUDA cards that support the required minimum and then maintain a list of chipsets/manufacturers whose cards/drivers are causing problems.  Frankly, it would provide a competitive advantage they need versus AVID, Sony, and Apple that they need by showing they are focused on leveraging hardware in an intelligent way.

                                                 

                                                Perhaps ATI's OpenCL will allow them to provide the same functionality with ATI cards.  Then again, perhaps the reason they haven't supported it yet is because they are running into the same "baking" issues with ATI that I have over the years.

                                                 

                                                Anyway, all I can say is that I took a "leap of faith" with my ASUS GTX 560 Ti card and it has been working flawlessly on my Win Server 2008 R2 machine, no less.  Yeah, I realize that none of this is "supported", but the fact is that it is working perfectly.  And the motherboard is OLD (AMD Athlon dual core Opteron 165 with 4GB RAM).

                                                 

                                                Scott

                                                • 22. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                  You only need one.

                                                   

                                                  Yes, but the point here is for the "one" we select, for whatever reason, to be officially supported.

                                                  • 23. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                    Perhaps ATI's OpenCL

                                                     

                                                    As a point of interest, OpenCL is not an ATI technology.  ATI's proprietary version of CUDA is called Stream Processing.  OpenCL is a non-proprietary standard that both ATI/AMD and nVidia cards can use.

                                                     

                                                    But I'd agree that Adobe should move away from the proprietary solutions and move towards an open standard that allows more cards to work.

                                                    • 24. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                      GlueFactoryBJJ Level 1

                                                      Yep, my bad.  What I get for posting on too little sleep.  I have OpenCL linked in my mind with ATI products because it seemed they were (at least at one time) pushing compatibility with it harder than Nvidia. Perhaps I'm just misremembering it.  The article below is a good read, if anyone is interested in this kind of stuff...

                                                       

                                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opencl

                                                       

                                                      Anyway, regardless of the name, a point I should have made clear is that an "open standard" is not necessarily better.  Just open to all.  Nvidia's CUDA is a great example of a good closed standard (OK, that may be a bit of an oxymoron).  A programmer I really respect (used to program assembler like other people program in C) is a registered CUDA developer.  According to him, CUDA is very well implemented and smokingly fast if programmed correctly.  In practice it appears you program to the driver/function intefaces and ignore the underlying hardware.  The drivers take care of the hardware utilization issues.

                                                       

                                                      As a disclaimer, I haven't been a programmer for over 15 years, so I'm out of date with this stuff, so take this for what you're paying for it...  

                                                       

                                                      But Jim, I think we can both agree that Adobe has been galacial in supporting additional graphics cards in the CUDA family.  Probably unnecessarily so.  UNLESS they have experiences we don't (quite possible, but reported successes with "the hack" would seem to indicate otherwise).  I hope they change their policy.  MANY Premiere and Photoshop users would be greatly thankful.  Hmmm, adding it to AE would be nice also. 

                                                       

                                                      There are also many ATI customers who would like stream/OpenCL support in future versions.  OK, in the CURRENT versions... 

                                                       

                                                      Scott

                                                      • 25. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                        SteveHoeg Adobe Employee

                                                        We have been watching the development of OpenCL with interest and are eagerly awaiting the drivers and toolset to reach the level of maturity we rely on with CUDA.

                                                        • 26. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                          Nice to know.  Thanks for the update, Steve.

                                                          • 27. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                            shooternz Level 6

                                                            You only need one.

                                                             

                                                            Yes, but the point here is for the "one" we select, for whatever reason, to be officially supported.

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            So how hard is it to choose one from the reasonable selection of "officially supported" cards already available?

                                                             

                                                            You would buy a new car with far less choices of engines.

                                                            • 28. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                              BJBBJB1 Level 1

                                                              shooternz wrote:

                                                               

                                                              You only need one.

                                                               

                                                              Yes, but the point here is for the "one" we select, for whatever reason, to be officially supported.

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              So how hard is it to choose one from the reasonable selection of "officially supported" cards already available?

                                                               

                                                              You would buy a new car with far less choices of engines.

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              You only need one?  Yes, Adobe could have listed just one card and then for custom-built boxes that only run Pr Pro they would be all set.

                                                               

                                                              It may not be "hard" to choose from a seemingly long list.  But as noted, 90% are Quadro cards and some are a generation (or two) old. And in comparison to the universe of CUDA cards and even higher-end CUDA cards which I am sure Adobe wants to run on, it is NOT that complete or big of a list and certainly not current.

                                                               

                                                              And the car analogy just does not work for me. The expectation there is of a limited choice from all competitors and they never change throughout the life of a car.  We are talking about the PC hardware and software world here.  The expectation here is if a standard is supported that all products meeting that standard are supported (both current and for the reasonable future) by all competitors in that space.

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              BJBBJB1

                                                              • 29. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                shooternz Level 6

                                                                Well I guess you will have to sit around and wait until the "ideal" card evolves that meets your paradigm of what things should be.

                                                                 

                                                                Meantime you may miss out on the wonderful "editing experience" the current crop of cards provides.

                                                                 

                                                                Depends a bit if you are into "editing"  or creating a system of the highest performance spec.  ( "racing NLE's)

                                                                • 30. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                  BJBBJB1 Level 1

                                                                  This has been a mostly positive and informative thread and intend to keep it that way.

                                                                  "Racing NLE's" or building the fastest system would be easy, just drop $600 or $700 or even more for some Quadros and let 'er rip.  That clearly is not the point.

                                                                   

                                                                  If you want the best performance for your dollar, want to buy a current card, and have a mixed-use machine, it is not that easy given the current situation.

                                                                   

                                                                  Enjoy your editing as I do mine using mostly PrPro.

                                                                   

                                                                  The paradigm shift here would be for Adobe to move towards expanding the card selection.

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  BJBBJB1

                                                                  • 31. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                    jabloomf1230 Level 1

                                                                    BJBBJB1 wrote:

                                                                    ...

                                                                    The paradigm shift here would be for Adobe to move towards expanding the card selection.

                                                                     

                                                                    Todd Kopriva really gave you the answer. Pretty much any recent nVidia card that supports CUDA will work with the MPE. Adobe can't possibly test every flavor of nVidia consumer video card, so they just "support" a short list of cards that they have tested.

                                                                     

                                                                    And I am not sure (maybe others here are) exactly why Quadro cards support additional aspects of PPro CS5.5 It's not the video driver (because most consumer cards  will run just fine with a Quadro driver). And it's not just the amount of video RAM on the card, because I have a GTX 580 with 3 GB and that doesn't appear to support Quadro "behavior" with PPro CS5.5. I also have a PC with a Quadro FX4800 with 1.5 GB and that does meet the PPro Quadro specs.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                      reasonable selection of "officially supported" cards

                                                                       

                                                                      Reasonable?!  There's a total of three desktop cards on the official list that you can still buy and aren't overpriced (read: Quadro).  And two of those are still on the very pricey side of the equation.  That leaves one reasonable choice - the 470.

                                                                       

                                                                      That's not a very big list.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                        shooternz Level 6

                                                                        Reasonable?!  There's a total of three desktop cards on the official list that you can still buy and aren't overpriced (read: Quadro).  And two of those are still on the very pricey side of the equation.  That leaves one reasonable choice - the 470.

                                                                         

                                                                        That's not a very big list.

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        Obviously if you factor in what you consider "over priced", you shorten the list.

                                                                         

                                                                        All the pros I know are using QUADRO cards.. Cost doesnt seem to worry them because the gains out weigh the cost.

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        • 34. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                          TradeWind Level 3

                                                                          If it was Facebook here, I would "Like" every single post from shooternz.

                                                                           

                                                                          Someone in this thread indicated a desire for Adobe to support a broader range of cards partially in consideration of multi-use machines (we'll just read that as "gaming" since there are few other purposes for specific selection of a graphics card).

                                                                           

                                                                          I just have to say that sounds strange to me...you want Adobe to make not only considerations for the proper set of hardware/software specifications when deciding to support a video card on their NLE, but also to think "now how would this handle a gaming session"....? I'll just leave that alone because I don't have anything nice to say.

                                                                           

                                                                          As for "reasonable" pricing...that's highly (read: "HIGHLY") subjective. To me, a $300 card that accelerates my editing workflow substantially is "reasonable" or even "cheap" or "affordable." Even a $1,000 card would be "reasonable" if it provided a substantially better benefit for my workflow. If I'm just an occasional editor, or just an amateur enthusiast, then dropping $300 on a card when I have no specific deadlines would be hard to justify. Dropping $1,000 for one might be completely unjustifiable.

                                                                           

                                                                          I'm not one of those who claims that you MUST be a full-time professional video producer if you want to use Premiere Pro. In fact, it is probably one of the most scalable NLEs you can buy (maybe Vegas compares favorably as well, but certainly not FCP or Avid MC). But if you want to harness all of PPro's capabilities at the highest ends of NLE work, then don't you think you should expect to spend a little bit more money for a better system (which, for Premiere Pro, also might include a little more investment in the GPU)? And if you're not doing this for a living, then yes, it would be harder to justify all that money.

                                                                           

                                                                          I knew it...really, I KNEW it...as soon as I read the first post here from Todd Kopriva outlining the Mercury Playback Engine and the short list of supported cards that would be listed when CS5 shipped....well, I just knew the complaints wouldn't be far behind the overwhelming early praise.

                                                                           

                                                                          "Premiere Pro CS5 will utilize my GPU to further accelerate my workflow! Brilliant! Amazing! Fantastic! Will it work with my ATI card, or my GTX 8800 card? Well dang, then this is useless overpriced crap that up with I shall not put."

                                                                           

                                                                          $300 hardware. That's what gets you in the door with a VIP badge for an amazing NLE experience. You want more layers of real-time editing? Double-down for a Quadro card. Only occasionally do 15 layers of video? Save your money for beer-thirty.

                                                                           

                                                                          I've dropped 10's of thousands of $$$ the last few years slowly moving everything I have to high definition. I would never do that if I wasn't earning a living from it - and enough of a living to justify the upfront costs. If I had a day job as a bank teller, then these costs would be "unreasonable" but for a professional video producer, it is "affordable" for me (since I know full well that this same gear would have gone well over the $100,000 mark just a few years ago).

                                                                           

                                                                          C'mon people...Adobe has made a committment to these cards, they work well, and they are worth it if you are a full-time video producer. Everyone else out there is playing catch up to Adobe on this front. Let's stop complaining about what else we COULD have and start enjoying what we have right now. Feature requests are fine, but let's not make it out as though Adobe is turning their nose up at us or failing to expend the proper resources to give us the best editing experience possible.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                            enough of a living to justify the upfront costs.

                                                                             

                                                                            And there's the key to the complaints.  Not all of us live in a market where the full value of the work we do is properly appreciated and adequately compensated for.

                                                                            • 36. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                              Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                              Let's stop complaining about what else we COULD have and start enjoying what we have right now.

                                                                               

                                                                              I don't think we should ever stop doing both. Else progress stagnates.

                                                                              • 37. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                                TradeWind Level 3

                                                                                I don't think we should ever stop doing both

                                                                                 

                                                                                Would be nice if there were some people actually doing both. People, as we are, tend more to provocation than praise.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Not all of us live in a market where the full value of the work we do is properly appreciated and adequately compensated for.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Unfortunately those two issues aren't necessarily related. For instance, I do a couple of non-profit gigs where the work is not adequately compensated (because they don't have the budget or aren't able to spend the money at the normal "for-profit" rate). They do, however, appreciate the effort and express it adequately.

                                                                                 

                                                                                And as we head to the lounge, I'd encourage you to MAKE your market worth more than it is. As Jeff Bellune will agree, the areas far east of Atlanta are not bustling video production marketplaces, but I do just fine (and I like where I live)

                                                                                 

                                                                                Sometimes I have to drive to get to the work, and other times I create the market in my own hometown. I have offered two products - home inventory videos (for insurance proof) and legacy videos - for which I had detected zero demand prior to my business making them available here. But as I spread the word that I'm offering these two services, people call and book. That's life in the middle-of-nowhere. In some ways, it is an advantage, because I can charge more than in larger areas because there are fewer options if you want to get a video produced locally. Still, I'd assume people living in the city (New York, Atlanta, L.A.) would have greater opportunities overall, and greater competition.

                                                                                 

                                                                                And that competitive push, as you alluded, is what drives progress.

                                                                                • 38. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                                  shooternz Level 6
                                                                                  And there's the key to the complaints.  Not all of us live in a market where the full value of the work we do is properly appreciated and adequately compensated for.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Thats something that needs to be addressed by individuals.  Art is a hard graft.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  The "toys and tools"  we have available are very reasonably priced in a professional or high end facility.  The cost of them may be more difficult to justify in lesser facilties or at amateur / consumer levels.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  One thing is certain...there are tools and toys for everyone and one needs to cut their own cloth accordingly.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I feel Adobe has done an awesome job of making this work for most.

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Mercury playback engine and NVIDIA cards
                                                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                                    Art is a hard graft.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Craig,

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Not sure if that is a typo, or an astute observation on the act of selling "art?" If the latter, then you get...

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Hunt

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