15 Replies Latest reply on May 19, 2011 9:35 AM by RFENG

    Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted

    RFENG Level 1

      I attempted to address a last minute request for a graduation shoot and ended up luckily with one AVCHD camera as opposed to an early SD model.  I placed the borrowed SD in the balcony only for stage shots to which I would fade when I had to switch shooting angles.  I had not attempeted to use many of the SD balcony shots but at mix time realized that I simply had to many holes with the video I shot with the AVCHD that had no vide while I was crossing beneath the stage to change angles. 



      The problem is the when using multi-cam I can't seem to find a format that doesn't destroy both video. I am not sure thers is really an answer here and I am pretty much stuck with abandoning the DV camera completely except for maybe the audio track.  Oddly, at least to me, when I did attempt a multi-cam sequence, the audio would not play and contained hash marks throughout the entire audio track.  I attempted to render the audio only but that did not remove teh hash marks which is telling me that they are mutually exclusively, one has a 32k bit rate while the other is a 48K bit rate--but I thought rendering the combined audio track might fix it.  Any suggestion on this and some reasonable work-around on the ridiculous situation regarding the two video formats would be most helpful. My gut tells me that the two video formats just can't be made to work but maybe someone has a work around whcih I would love to hear about.


      Much thanks indeed for any suggestions.

        • 1. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
          TradeWind Level 3

          First, sounds like you learned a pretty hard lesson. Two heads are always better than one. I've done some one-man-band jobs like this before and it never makes anyone happy. Sometimes it's because I took a last-minute job, or no one was available or I just wanted to be cheap. It just makes for poor video almost every time.


          Now about your multicam issue...what are the actual formats on each video....widescreen SD? 720 or 1080 HD? Frame rates? Interlace or progressive?


          Your BEST bet is to make a sequence that matches your SD settings (just drag-n-drop the SD video file to the new sequence icon in the project panel). Then add your HD clip(s) and scale to fit in the frame. The hash marks might be "missing audio" or it might be something else...post a screen grab to show exactly what you're talking about.


          As for mixing the audio, you can mix 48 and 32. The 48 has 1/3 more audio information so it will work well with the 32...going the other way isn't so good, but would still work. So that's not your problem.


          Sometimes audio and video can drift out of sync for various reasons. You can trying opening the clip in the source panel and looking at the audio waveform to see what's happening at the clip level.


          More info and screengrabs please

          • 2. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
            RFENG Level 1

            The native ACVHD footage was 60i 1920 X 1080, the SD was 720 X 480 interlaced directly onto DV tape.


            I think I understand what you are saying but I seem to be running into a problem adjusting all the AVCHD clips to the sequence format of 720 X 480 for the DV SD camera.  With both clips synced in the multi-cam sequence what I am attempting to do is manually size each AVCHD shot so that the center of the frame fits to the DV format. Again, I am using the effects panel to size, not position, the AVCHD clip so that it is rezized to retain the original image center.  Otherwise, the larger frame size of the AVCHD clip is no long centered on the subjects and this was the only way I knew to perform this action.


            Prehaps, you meant to resize all the AVCHD clips on where they were synced to the smaller DV frame before attempting to pick the shots in the multicam sequence.


            How then to do I fit all of the AVCHD clips to the DV format for multi-cam editing?  Is there a way to do this in the project panel by selecting them all or does it have to be done on the time line where both cam clips are together before opening the multi-cam window?


            Thanks Christian!

            • 3. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
              TradeWind Level 3

              No problem with the way you are setting up and scaling your HD clips in the SD sequence....so long as you are doing this in the SOURCE multicam sequence (where you sync both video clips). You will want to be sure that you DO NOT SELECT "Scale to Frame Size" on your HD clips. This may be on by default. If so, just right click and deselect it on each HD clip in your sequence. THEN is when you will resize your HD clips using the effects panel to get a center cut on your HD clips.


              Once you get to your final multicam sequence, you should not have to do any scaling (and you DO NOT WANT to do any scaling, either since it will look terrible if you do). In the final sequence, all you want to do is make your shot selections (and audio selections if you wish).


              So to clarify...


              1. Lay your clips down in an SD sequence (the "multicam source sequence") that matches your SD clip(s) on track 1 and track 2 for cameras 1 and 2, respectively

              2. Scale your HD clips (being sure that "Scale to Frame Size" is NOT already selected) for the center-cut on the SD sequence

              3. Drag and drop the multicam source sequence into a NEW sequence (we'll call it the "final multicam sequence")

              4. Right click the nested source multicam seqence and choose "Multicam > Enable"

              5. Open the Multicam window and start making your shot selections inside the final multicam sequence


              Still doesn't address your audio issues, but maybe this will help with that somehow.

              • 4. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                RFENG Level 1

                Much thanks Christian,


                The sizing with the effects panel is exactly how I did this in the nested multi-cam timeline.  The audio issue went away--not sure what caused it.


                I did have some rework due to edits that I had to make to the raw footage which got the two cam's out of sync.  The HD cam was the main reference as Video 1 but perhaps I need to revisit the workflow again for the next project so that if I edit anything, I should do it in the multi-cam timeline since both cams would be locked, if they were originally.  I did not use the sync markers as shown in the old CS3 tutorial (would like to see a new one on this subject) but instead used un-numbered markers from the time line to "line up" the tracks.  I am wondering if the sync markers would have been a better choice or would it really matter how it's done as along as sync is accomplished on the source sequence?


                Much thanks so much for your suggestion on sizing--that seems to be the best approach to resolving the conflicting source material.

                • 5. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                  TradeWind Level 3

                  The best sync method is timecode, so long as your timecode matches between cameras or is at least consistent. In other words, so long as you have FREE RUNNING time code, if you know how many frames/seconds/minutes the timecode is off by, you can still sync, then manually adjust one of your tracks left or right on the timeline.


                  Best way to fine-tune sync is using the track select tool and keeping all your clips from each camera on their own tracks together. Then using the track select tool, select the entire track and then move ALL clips together according to your waveform.


                  If your timecode drifts too much then you still probably want to approach it this way (which is more likely if you have a lot of starts and stops, or you have different time bases, or drop frame on one and not the other).


                  Alternatively, if you have a good visual cue like a FLASH going off in the frame of all cameras, then yes - you can mark that frame on each clip with a clip marker and then sync those clip markers. this is a fairly reliable and quick method as well.


                  Again, just remember in the future, FREE RUN timecode is best no matter when you're working with multiple cameras. I personally set my timecode on my cameras to 24 hour time...so if it's 1:46pm, use the timecode preset to make it read 13:46:00:00. If I can't physically sync the multiple cameras for whatever reason, then I visually program each camera together. Pretty guerilla but it works, and I'm never off more than a second or two at most when I bring the footage into the edit.


                  Also....always run good loud audio so you can use those waveforms for sync in post...I've had guys who killed their on-board camera mics before because we were running another set of audio recorders and didn't think we needed it. I guess they thought somehow it would save me storage space (which is not how that works...but oh well). Needless to say, sync took a little longer on those edits.

                  • 6. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                    RFENG Level 1

                    I wanted a board feed from the sound guys at this exercise but could not get it--the sound would have been so much better and could have easily synced that to one or both tracks from the cams.


                    I noticed that trying to slide the audio track on the time line is quirky at best.  There is no "nudging" or fine slip adjustment which is needed to precisely match the reference audio peaks.  That's something Adobe really needs to provide.  I have to zoom almost fully in on the time line to make the adjustment but even then it's a trial and error back and forth exercise.


                    Am I missing something here??


                    Thanks again--great help and so much appreciated!!

                    • 7. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                      For the syncing, it is likely that Snap is ON, and will cause the Clips to jump about, when they get near any junction. This ARTICLE might be useful.


                      Good luck, and it seems that Christian has gotten you "almost home."



                      • 8. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                        TradeWind Level 3

                        There are two options....frames (video) and samples (audio) for placing objects on the timeline.


                        If you are adjusting audio-only tracks, you may want to tick the option in the timeline panel (top right flyout menu on the timeline panel) for audio time units. You can make relatively micro adjustments by zooming all the way in on the sequence with this option on. Otherwise, you can only move sequence objects by a frame at a time.


                        As Bill mentioned, turning of snap could help (keyboard shortcut "s" will toggle on and off)


                        ALSO...you can select a clip on the timeline, and then type in the number of frames you want to move a clip by. If you select a clip, then use the number keypad to press "+" then enter "22" then you'll move your clip forward/ahead by that many frames (entering "-" and then "22" moves the clip backward by the same amount). Keep in mind, though...this is only on the number keypad (far right on your keyboard) and does not work the same way if you use the + or - keys at the top of your keyboard.


                        And if you forget to select the clip, it'll just move the CTI instead, and your clip won't move.

                        • 9. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                          RFENG Level 1

                          Yes indeed he has helped quite a lot as well as you have in the past.  Thanks again Bill for this tipI will look at the linkI need to fix this.  Thanks again!

                          • 10. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                            RFENG Level 1

                            Thanks a bunch Christian, that was most helpful!

                            • 11. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                              RFENG Level 1



                              I had to redo a good bit of the project after discovering the prime audio track should have been from camera 2 rather than 1.  I made audio track 2 as audio 1 but was that actually necessary?  As long as I turn off track 1 audio and turn on track 2, but PP shouldn't care what track I am using as long as I have the track I want for the audio to be designated as audio 1 for the multicam right? The problems is that I still have the audio on track 1 in the source sequence from cam 1 but that is not the audio I want to use so I turn off that track in that sequence.  If I do that, I then turn off the audio from track 2 that is now the reference for audio one in the multicam timeline, leaving me with no audio.  The only audio that is fed to the multicam timeline is the original audio from track 1 or cam 1 which is not what I want.  The mapping seems simple enough but for some reason it is not working. 


                              In the source sequence,  I see that V video is mapped to cam 1 and A1 audio 1 is indeed mapped to audio 2 track but there is no audio in the timeline when editing in the multicam window.  There is indeed audio on both track 1 and 2 but I must use track 2 audio not track 1.  If I turn on track 1 audio in the source sequence I get track 1 audio which I don't want but if I turn off track 1 I get nothing. 


                              Can you tell me what I might be doing incorrectly?

                              • 12. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                                RFENG Level 1

                                One additional question regarding re-sizing the cameras in multi-cam since I have to do this again after re-editing the  source sequence to correct gaps and missing media, is there any way to resize all the cam 1 HD clips at once or many at a time as opposed to  being forced to select each HD shot and resize in effects?


                                It seems that copying and pasting the effects don't work in CS5 as they did in CS4.  I use to simply click on a particular transition in the time line and paste it between two other clips by setting the CTI at the point and hitting control V.  I could not get this to work yesterday at any point. 


                                Thanks again!

                                • 13. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                                  TradeWind Level 3

                                  Generally, when setting up your multicam source, it makes sense to keep camera audio on the same track as the video (so Cam1 video on V1 and Cam1 audio on A1). This is just to keep you from going insane


                                  If you have multiple audio sources - like a Zoom H4n recorder, for example - they will go on their own audio track as well, BUT keep in mind that you'll need a corresponding BLANK video track IF you want to select this audio track in the destination multitrack sequence.


                                  In the multicam sequence, you can choose to have "video follow audio" (so when you select Cam1 (V1) it will also take audio from the corresponding audio track (A1). Or you can deselect that option and manually cut and choose your multitrack audio as you go along by selecting the audio clip (use the ALT modifier key) and then right click to select the multicam track.


                                  All that make sense to you?


                                  Now if you hide the audio or video tracks in the source sequence then they won't be available in the final/destination sequence. Not sure if that's related to your issues.

                                  • 14. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                                    TradeWind Level 3

                                    You should be able to set one clip and then copy+paste the Motion effect to all the other HD clips just by selecting them in the timeline. I have CS5 (not 5.5) and this is how it works for me. Just be sure you're actually SELECTING the motion effect, copying it, then SELECTING all the clips you want to apply it to in the timeline before you paste the effect.


                                    You could also create an effect preset if this is something you do a lot. Just name it "1080>480 Center Cut" so you can differentiate it (in case you ever wanted a 720>480 center cut, or better yet, a 4K>480 Center Cut!)

                                    • 15. Re: Multi-Cam Troubles--probably self inflicted
                                      RFENG Level 1

                                      Yes, this makes sense.  When I discovered that the audio associated with the HD video 1 was actually inferior to that being captured on the SD camera, (video 2 audio 2), (this was due to the fixed position of cam 2 in the balcony and it's proximity to the sound system in the auditorium) so initially, a lot of that track was not planned for use.  After discovering I had to use audio 2, I was unable to switch tracks in the multiple-cam sequence after the source sequence had been placed with audio 1 as prime.  Maybe there was something else at work here but I started over and thinking that would be the quickest solution. 


                                      I am still not completely sure that once the source sequence is synced and dropped into the multiple-cam sequence if audio 2 could be changed to the reference video track replacing audio 1.  It certainly would seem so but it was not working for me.  I had NO audio when I tried this.


                                      I think I am back to a finished multiple-cam sequence now and hope the resizing and dissolves do not cause playable issues with the final DVD format. I will use DL to Encore to make the final Video_TS folder for burning.


                                      I am still uncertain regarding the resizing task being copied the applied to all HD clips.  Shouldn't this work like copying any other effects? 


                                      I got the transition copy and pasting to work finally.  Not sure what prevented me from doing this yesterday but was clearly not working.  It could have been memory issues with the PC. 


                                      Thank a million for the great support and adding to my experience which I will use over and over in the future.