34 Replies Latest reply on Jun 7, 2011 1:32 PM by John Hawkinson

    Pink icons for InDesign 5.5

    Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

      Having just upgraded to InDesign 5.5, I now find that all my InDesign documents have pink icons as opposed to the traditional purple icons. Is this the new look for InDesign or a bug. It's not important but it is annoying me somewhat.

       

      Screen shot 2011-06-05 at 4.11.23 PM.png

        • 1. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
          John Hawkinson Level 5

          This is the new look for CS5.5 document icons.

          • 2. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

            You must be on a Mac where every file takes on the current version icon. On Windows only the 5.5 icons are the new look.

             

            Bob

            • 3. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
              Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

              Thank you both for ending thoughts that perhaps it was a bug. The question remains WHY? What was wrong with having a purple icon that blended beautifully with the others from CS? WHY the loud, rather insipid pink? Who makes these decisions and why?

              • 4. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                Why the obsession? Every version of InDesign has its own application icons.

                 

                The most important part is that they be easily identifiable. As I said earlier this only works on Windows but it's quite effective in knowing what version of InDesign created the file.

                 

                Bob

                • 5. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                  Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

                  It's not an obsession Bob, it's a fair question. If there was a focus group that identified that the original purple icon wasn't easily identifiable so lets choose a colour that lacerates the eyeballs of the user, then it's an inspired choice. Yes, I do use a Mac.

                  • 6. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                    John Hawkinson Level 5

                    Bob Levine wrote:

                    You must be on a Mac where every file takes on the current version icon. On Windows only the 5.5 icons are the new look.

                    This is a bug.

                     

                    I'm not sure whose bug it is, Adobe's or Apple's. But it a bug and it is legitimate to be annoyed about it: CS5 documents should suddenly become CS5.5 documents from the perspective of the Finder. It is not only aesthetically displeasing, but functionally annoying, and using 3rd party tools like Soxy really doesn't make it any less annoying. The OS should be handling ths stuff

                    properly.

                     

                    I do agree that the CS5.5 icons are...more visually noisy than CS5's, and make me feel kind of "on edge." Not the color scheme I would have chosen.

                    Just to be clear, we're comparing:

                    ID70_Document_Icon-2 (dragged).png ID_Document_Icon-2 (dragged).png

                    • 7. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                      Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

                      Thanks for your thoughts John but I'm not holding my breath on this one.

                      • 8. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                        John Hawkinson Level 5

                        Whoops:

                        CS5 documents should suddenly become CS5.5 documents from the perspective of the Finder.

                        should not.

                        • 9. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          Nicholas Petropoulos wrote:

                           

                          If there was a focus group that identified that the original purple icon wasn't easily identifiable so lets choose a colour that lacerates the eyeballs of the user, then it's an inspired choice. Yes, I do use a Mac.

                          Ah, you must be a fairly new ID user. These solid-color icons were introduced only in CS3. Prior to that they were butterfly themed and very easy to differentiate. Illustrator used flowers in the the first bundles, and Photoshop had feathers, and both of those had other icons befor the creative suite bundles were invented and the silly and confusing CS numbering system was adopted.

                           

                          Aside from not being terribly attractive in some people's opinions, and not being handled correctly by Apple, the CS5 and CS5.5 icons are simply inverses of the same color scheme. It seems a reasonable way to show the generation relationship, from an engineer's point of view, and think of how little money needed to be spent to update the interface.

                          • 10. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                            A bug? Seriously?

                             

                            You must be kidding! Do you know what a bug is?

                             

                            This is an operating system limitation on the Mac. Pure and simple.

                             

                            Every single version of InDesign, and this is actually the ninth one, has a different document icon. On Windows you can see them, on the Mac you can't. I wrote this up with Soxy was released originally.

                             

                            http://indesignsecrets.com/utility-opens-indd-files-in-the-correct-version-of-indesign-in- osx.php

                             

                            Bob

                            • 11. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              Why don't we compromise ad call it a "feature."

                              • 12. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                John Hawkinson Level 5

                                Bob wrote:

                                A bug? Seriously?

                                 

                                You must be kidding! Do you know what a bug is?

                                Very much so.

                                 

                                I suspect, though, maybe you don't understand how file types work under MacOS?

                                 

                                Every file has a 4-byte type code, a 4-byte creator code, and also a file extension. All of these get used together to determine the application that owns the file and its icon.

                                 

                                Applications export this information via their Info.plist file.

                                You can see this by rightclicking on the app and chosing "Show Package Contents":

                                 

                                showpackage2.png

                                 

                                Then, navigate to Contents/Info.plist, and open it in the Property List Editor (you may need to have the Developer Tools installed to get the property list editor). You'll see that the file types are defined for each version of InDesign's documents, as well as a generic document type:

                                 

                                info4.png

                                 

                                Assuming that an InDesign document has the IDd7 file type, it should be assigned the icons in ID70_Document_Icons.icns, which are the correct CS5 icons, even though the file in the CS5.5 app bundle.

                                 

                                But if it doens't have the right type, then the Finder will fallback to the file extension. ("CFBundleTypeExtensions"), which would give it the CS5.5 icon.

                                 

                                So why does that fallback happen? Well, I don't know. The machine I'm sitting in front of seems to no longer be displaying the problem, but on a different machine, I managed to find a CS5 file that looks like CS5.5. Here's what I see:

                                 

                                $ /Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo file.indd 
                                file: "/path/to/file.indd"
                                type: "\0\0\0\0"
                                creator: "\0\0\0\0"
                                attributes: avbstclinmedz
                                created: 05/31/2011 19:11:48
                                modified: 05/31/2011 19:11:49
                                $
                                

                                 

                                That is, the creator and type are all nulls. This is presuambly why the file falls back to the 5.5 icon, based on the file extension. How does it get to be nulls? I don't know. It should be IDd7.

                                 

                                Bob, your writeup is rather lacking in technical detail. Do you know what a bug is?

                                • 13. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                  It's been this way since day 1, John.

                                   

                                  Why all of a sudden it's an earthshaking problem, I don't know.

                                   

                                  Bob

                                  • 14. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                    John Hawkinson Level 5

                                    Earthshaking no, bug yes. Just because you've learned to live with it doesn't make it annoying.


                                    • 15. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                      BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                      Have it your way.

                                      • 16. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                        Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

                                        Are you guys for real?

                                         

                                        We determined from the onset that it wasn't a bug. My issue was not the changing of icon design. In fact, I like change, although I did very much like the illustrative icons of years gone by if I was perfectly honest. My only issue is that the colour PINK is an horrendous assault on the senses. It's hideous, ghastly and makes the internal files of my folders look as cheap as they do on PCs.

                                         

                                        Incidentally Peter, I've used inDesign since it's inception. In fact, I was introduced to it as PageMaker (although I dumped it for Quark)

                                        • 17. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                                          No, we're just figments of you're imagination. But there are two different things going on here, let's not mix them.

                                           

                                          At the onset, when I said, "This is the new look for CS5.5 document icons," that was a reference to how CS5.5 documents appear after installing CS5.5. Bright pink.

                                           

                                          But installation of CS5.5 is not supposed to cause existing documents (CS5, CS3, etc.) to change their icon appearance. From purple to pink. But it clearly does. This is a bug.

                                           

                                          Do you disagree?

                                          • 18. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                            Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

                                            John...

                                             

                                            I know that my old old illustrator 8.0 and below files have their very own icons but the other Adobe icons have updated to whatever the new look icons is.
                                            Older inDesign files on my Mac DO NOT have butterfly icons. I'm certain of that.

                                             

                                            Therefore, I have to say that no, this isn't a bug.

                                            • 19. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                              John Hawkinson Level 5
                                              Older inDesign files on my Mac DO NOT have butterfly icons. I'm certain of that.

                                              What does your certainty have to do with it? Older InDesign files on your Mac do not have butterfly icons. They should.

                                              Consult the Info.plist files -- thye should all point to butterfly icons, e.g. ID30_Document_Icons.icns.

                                               

                                              Therefore, I have to say that no, this isn't a bug.

                                              Again, why does the absence of butterfly icons mean there is no bug? Quite the reverse, it means that there is.

                                              Unless there's a good reason for the files to not have been properly tagged as InDn/IDd3.

                                               

                                              Or maybe we should get all deeply philosophic...

                                              • 20. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

                                                Thanks for listening John but you're heading into geek territory.

                                                 

                                                Time for me to sign off.

                                                • 21. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                  Never left it. We'll miss you.

                                                  • 22. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                    You're wrong, John. Every new version of ID (and every other application I can think of) causes the file icon to change to the newest look. It's not a bug, it's an operating system limitation.

                                                     

                                                    Windows handles this much better.

                                                     

                                                    Bob

                                                    • 23. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                      OK, Bob, just for you, let's exit Geek Territory and enter Logic Territory.

                                                       

                                                      You're wrong, John. Every new version of ID (and every other application I can think of) causes the file icon to change to the newest look. It's not a bug, it's an operating system limitation.

                                                      Argument by assertion with no proof makes me wrong? That is not how it works.

                                                      Support your assertion with clear statements and reasonings, and the world will beat a path to your door.

                                                      Make unsupported assertions that turn out to be wrong, and people will mock you.

                                                      Make unsupported assertions with that turn out to be right, and you get lucky :-).

                                                       

                                                      Back to Geek Territory:

                                                       

                                                      You might be able to argue that this is a deliberate decision on Adobe's part to change the icon, but it's certainly not an operating system limitation.

                                                      Go back and look at the Info.plist I have above. Notice that CS5 references ID70_Document_Icons.icns. Open up the file, you'll find this icon:

                                                      http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/2-3721186-71149/ID70_Document_Icon-2+%28dragged%29.png

                                                      Now, you're going to tell me that they just include this icon in the CS5 .app bundle for the fun of it, because it is not intended to be used?

                                                       

                                                      Here's another example. Let's create two files and mark them as InDesign files, one as a CS file and one as a CS5 file:

                                                       

                                                      http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/71254/bob1.png

                                                       

                                                      (Ignore the first SetFIle, that was the wrong code).

                                                      There you get the butterfly for InDesign CS.

                                                       

                                                      Notice we don't see the problem? It's because it is related to the .INDD extension. Let's rename them to f1.indd and f2.indd.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/71258/bob2.png

                                                      There we go, we see the bug. Why does it happen?

                                                       

                                                      Almost certainly it's because the Info.plist for InDesign declares that INDD is associated with the CS5 icon and not with the other version types, and Apple's Launch Services gives preference to the extension over the creator/type information. Whose bug is this? Not sure, but I assume it's Adobe's, since Apple gets to define this API. Though the Launch Services API documentation is silent on whether CFBundleOSTypes should have precedence over CFBundleTypeExtensions.

                                                       

                                                      We could fix it by removing INDD from the the CS5 icons, but that wouldn't be such a great plan. We could try associating INDD with all the other icons, that's probably reasonable... Unforttunately because Info.Plist files for InCopy and InDesign all do this, and this machine has 3 versions of each installed, I don't really feel like doing it. There is probably some magic incantation involving lsregister to make it work, but I'm not really enthused.

                                                       

                                                      Anyhow, Bob, you're wrong. It's a longstanding bug. Every new version of InDesign has shown it, because no one has fixed it. [See how silly that sounds?]

                                                       

                                                      Edit: images came up broken when I first posted. Hopefully fixed now.

                                                      • 24. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                        Nicholas Petropoulos Level 1

                                                        You know what is interesting thought, the ID 5.5 icon in the dock is purple, not pink.

                                                        Maybe, just maybe, the self confessed geek is right. It is a bug.

                                                        • 25. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                          Hmm. Well, interesting observation, but the app icon is not really related to the above.

                                                           

                                                          It is definitely true that the purple CS5.5 app icon is somewhat inconsistent with the pink CS5.5 document icons.

                                                          But this doesn't speak to the question of whether the purple documents going away is a bug or feature or "limitation." (What's the difference between a bug and a limitation though? Maybe Bob and I are in violent agreement?)

                                                           

                                                          I think this just means someone made a bad design choice... (or maybe the guy whose job it was to design the icon didn't finish in time for the ship deadline?)

                                                          • 26. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                            Nini Tjader Level 4

                                                            @Nicholas - Just for the order of things: InDesign had nothing to do with PageMaker. It was a totally new application that did not build on PageMaker and was developed from scratch, NOT building on PagMaker.

                                                            • 27. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                              Nini Tjader Level 4

                                                              @john It is not a bug. It is as the OS considers it. At least on the Mac the OS always consider the documents of a certain application to belong to the latest and newest application and associates it with the newest version. There is nothing you can do about that. Doubleclicking on a documetn will also always open it in the newest version and convert it. If you want it to open in an older version (totally possible to have several versions installed, at least on the Mac) you hvae to manually drag it onto said version of the application, or if it is already open, it will open in that one if it was created by that one. There are some plugins that can associate with older versions but I doubt it will change the visual look of documents icons and/or the OS considering them to belong to a certain version.

                                                              • 28. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                                Nini Tjader Level 4

                                                                @nicholas No it is NOT a bug. It IS an OS limitation. And the dockicon or application icon has nothing to do with the color of the document icon. Those are separate things.

                                                                • 29. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                                  Nini, I think perhaps you are not aware that InDesign assigns a different Type to each different document version. CS5 files are IDd7, CS5.5 files are IDd2, CS files are IDd3, etc. Thus conventional wisdom about how MacOS behaves when an application that uses the a single type for all documents does not apply to InDesign.

                                                                   

                                                                  InDesign has lots to do with Pagemaker. It was rewritten from scratch in parallel with Pagemaker 6.5, but many of the developers who worked on Pagemaker worked on InDesign. And to this day, many of the internals of InDesign pay homage to Pagemaker. For instance, the translatable string class in InDesign is a PMString. I wonder what PM stands for?

                                                                   

                                                                  p.s.: did we really need 3 seperate posts?

                                                                  • 30. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                                    Nini Tjader Level 4

                                                                    I know InDesign itself keeps track of which version is which. That does however not mean that the OS can differ between differnt versions. At least on the Mac the OS always associates with the latest version no matter what the application lkeeps track of internally.

                                                                     

                                                                    And ID was not rewritten from scratch.... It was developed from scratch as the code in PM was too old to build on. Or so the Adobe guys who know the history have always said.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                                      Nini Tjader wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      I know InDesign itself keeps track of which version is which. That does however not mean that the OS can differ between differnt versions. At least on the Mac the OS always associates with the latest version no matter what the application lkeeps track of internally.

                                                                      The OS can absolutely differentiate between versions. They have different type codes.

                                                                      Inspect with /Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo. Or just look:

                                                                       

                                                                      If you think this fails to demonstrate that the OS knows the difference, then you'll have to provide a much more compelling justification.

                                                                       

                                                                      We are not discussing information buried inside the InDesign file, such as is used by InDesign when reading the file.

                                                                      We are discussing the HFS metadata file type that is stored with every MacOS file on an HFS (or HFS+) filesystem.

                                                                       

                                                                      It seems like maybe you didn't read the thread above with care?

                                                                      • 32. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                                        BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                        There was a conscious decision (one I disagree with, BTW) to leave the application icon unchanged but to create a new file icon.

                                                                         

                                                                        Bob

                                                                        • 33. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                                          SuperMacGuy Level 2

                                                                          John you have a half a point, but not a full point. For all intents and working purposes, the OS does not really care what version of an app created a document. As stated by others, any new document gets saved with the newest application's icon.

                                                                          I feel your command line tool is sort of a trickery because, as you surely well know, classic file types and creator codes are being abandoned in favor of the UTI. So no person could make a document in their normal workflow and set the icon like you've shown. All files are supposed to have extensions these days, and they are there by default, though can be hidden to make users feel less like we're working with DOS. The file extension overrides any other data and the OS applies the icon to files as it sees fit.

                                                                           

                                                                          Here's an experiment for you to try:

                                                                          Start up ID CS5. Double click your CS5 doc and see what application opens it. Now double click your CS3 document and tell us what application opens it. I'd bet $20 it opens in CS5 and does not kick start CS3 to launch.

                                                                           

                                                                          So, you might be technically correct, but it's a hollow victory in this conversation. You really need to be ******** at Apple. This is not an Adobe bug.

                                                                           

                                                                          Chris

                                                                          • 34. Re: Pink icons for InDesign 5.5
                                                                            John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                                            Chris, please note I was very careful to specify that I did not know whether it was Apple's bug or Adobe's bug.

                                                                             

                                                                            The purpose of the "trickery" is that it is not by intention that Adobe does not display the older icons, and that they do indeed make an attempt to display them, and they do ship the icons.

                                                                             

                                                                            You can easily make a document that has the icon like I've shown by saving the document in CS3 and not setting the extension to .INDD. E.g. "cs3doc.nft" (no-file-type).

                                                                             

                                                                            UTIs are an interesting case. Adobe hasn't defined any UTIs for InDesign files (much to my dismay when I wrote a Spotlight importer for INDD files).

                                                                             

                                                                            I would like to think that UTIs (Uniform Type Identifiers, for those of you not in the know, like com.adobe.photoshop-image) will solve this problaem reasonably, assuming Adobe assigns one UTI to each InDesign version. It would seem logical that they would do so, since they have assigned different document types, but one never knows. As far as I can tell no Adobe CS apps export UTIs. At least none in Design Standard...

                                                                             

                                                                            I'm hesitant to say the non-use of UTIs by Adobe is a "bug," but I do think this behavior is a bug, and using UTIs would fix it. :-)