24 Replies Latest reply on Jun 13, 2011 3:55 PM by Joel Cherney

    using a font with diacriticals - How?

    YomBuddy

      I make extensive use of a font called URW Palladio Pali, which is for writing in the Pali language. It includes letters with diacriticals, such as a line over an "A", making it a long vowel. You may be familiar with this from Latin. More familiar is the Spanish palatal "n", written with a tilde (~) over it.

       

      In Windows, I would use the Alt key plus four numbers to get a long A: Alt+0225. I have tried this using the Command, Option, and Control key, and none of them work.

       

      How do I get my Pali diacriticals?

        • 1. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
          Grant H Level 4

          what font u using? some fonts dont have them... anyway open the glyph panel and search for it there.  (window/type and tables/ Glyphs.)

           

          G

           

          what font u using?

          Edit um yes... I see...

           

          G

          • 2. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
            Harbs. Level 6

            You need to enable the correct keyboard.

             

            Alternately, you can insert the correct glyph using the glyph panel in InDesign, or the OS Character Palette.

             

            If you want functionality similar to Windows on Mac. open your "Language and Text" preference pane and enable  the Unicode Hex input keyboard. That lets you insert glyphs using option + unicode value...

             

            Harbs

            • 3. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
              John Hawkinson Level 5
              It includes letters with diacriticals, such as a line over an "A", making it a long vowel. You may be familiar with this from Latin.

              Just fyi, this is a macron.

              • 4. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                Grant H Level 4
                Just fyi, this is a macron.

                i've forgotten most if not all diaeresis... or at least the names of...

                 

                Macron: have to take your word... lol!

                 

                G

                • 5. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                  Harbs. Level 6

                  A quick google search came up with this:

                  http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3911

                   

                  There's quite a bit of info there on which keyboard layouts have the diactritics you need -- and how to create your own...

                   

                  HTH,

                  Harbs

                  • 6. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                    John Hawkinson Level 5

                    Grant, I was speaking to the original poster (YomBuddy), who had referred to it.

                    Please note that a "diaeresis" is not a generic term for any diacritical, but rather refers to a specific one, two points over the second of two  consecutive vowels, also termed an umlaut.

                     

                    Thanks!

                    • 7. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                      Grant H Level 4

                      yeah I know you were refering to th OP... just commented on your ability to remeber those name... (i hated that part in colledge although was not covered THAT comprehensivly.... thank god)

                       

                      G

                       

                      edit: getting late... spelling !!!

                      • 8. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                        macinbytes Level 4

                        All these comments about diacriticals really are making me want to throw out some puns, even though I know there could be some grave consequences and my family would surely breve my parting.

                        • 9. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                          YomBuddy Level 1

                          Hello again, John -  Yes, it is a macron, and there are several diacriticals in Pali that are not in Latin fonts ( http://www.sanskritweb.net/fonts/papali.pdf ).

                           

                          I neglected to mention that my previous work with this font was done in Pagemaker 7.0 under Windows. The suggestions offered so far imply that the simple use of Alt + xxxx is not possible in InDesign. Is that so?

                           

                          I have already installed the Pali font, and now that my Save function works, I want to get to work editing. The terminology of the suggestions offered -- one of which may turn out to be the solution -- is not yet in my vocabulary. I am beginning to long for the "good old days" with PageMaker!

                          • 10. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                            YomBuddy Level 1

                            Harbs - I am familiar with the variety of Pali fonts available, and the URW Pali (used by the Pali Text Society) is my font of choice. It would be a very big job to redo all my work in a new font.

                            • 11. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                              YomBuddy Level 1

                              Herbs - I saw this after the previous post. Sounds like the ticket. I will try it.d

                              • 12. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                YomBuddy Level 1

                                Harbs - OK, I opened the Language & Text pane in System Preferences and went through the 4 tabs. I saw nothing about enabling Unicode. ?

                                • 13. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                  Harbs. Level 6

                                  I wasn't referring to the fonts in that thread. I was referring to the keyboard layouts. That's two different things...

                                   

                                  Good luck!

                                  Harbs

                                  • 14. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                    Harbs. Level 6

                                    You want this input method:

                                    2011-06-13_2213.png

                                    Also, in the thread I referenced above, the was a suggestion that the US Extended keyboard (three items above) could help too...

                                     

                                    Harbs

                                    • 15. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                      Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      I am beginning to long for the "good old days" with PageMaker!

                                       

                                      It would be a very big job to redo all my work in a new font.

                                       

                                       

                                      I'm sure. Depending on how long you want your efforts to last, you may want to think about doing that work.

                                       

                                      A big part of my job is taking old PageMaker publications in old fonts and bringing 'em into the 21st century. I installed and looked at the URW Pali fonts, and saw that the way you're working is going to trap your documents in the 20th century. You may be okay with this - maybe you are only working for print, and you're completely okay with your documents not being in step with contemporary standards, and you don't care if your work dies with you (or you're willing to cede the work of bringing your documents up-to-date to someone else).

                                       

                                      Check it out: if I open up InDesign's Glyphs menu (Type -> Glyphs) and mouse over the S-with-dot-below, the little popup informs me that the letter is encoded as "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH GRAVE." This means that your font of choice is out of step with Unicode, which is the basic standard for font encoding that was developed during the 90s. It means that, should twenty years pass and the URW Palladio font disappear from the Internet, your work would require conversion to Unicode standards for anyone to be able to use it. It makes it very hard to revise or repurpose the text in such documents.

                                       

                                      You may not care - in which case you can safely ignore my admonition that you should think hard about tackling that "very big job." I do that "very big job" all the time, when I write a script to convert text set in a noncompliant old font that worked fine in PageMaker for Lao or Amharic or Dari or Tamil or Croatian or what-have-you, into a new font and new encoding that is based on standards and will be accessible for the foreseeable future. It doesn't mean that I have to re-typeset the entire body of work; to the contrary, it means I get to haul PageMaker documents into the twenty-first century, with a minimum of fuss, and perhaps a bit of text reflow here and there.

                                       

                                      More than anything else, it means that when I make a PDF of a how-to-use-your-state-sponsored-benefts document for a refugee population, and my client puts it up for download, it's searchable. It means that, should I need to update a document, I don't have to find a translator or typesetter who is capable of working in a particular old-fashioned font. And, most importantly, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow and my brains wind up scattered across the roadway (actually, my coworkers frown on my use of that particular hypothetical proposition and insist that I substitute "if I get abducted by aliens tomorrow"), it means that someone else can continue my work without having to have obscure expertise in foreign-language typesetting hacks and workarounds of the early 90s.

                                       

                                      Just think about it.

                                      • 16. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                        Harbs. Level 6

                                        Oh!

                                         

                                        I didn't realize we are dealing with archaic custom encoding. Yech!!!

                                         

                                        I totally agree with Joel's sentiments. If at all possible, use unicode compliant fonts now before you regret it later...

                                         

                                        Harbs

                                        • 17. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                          Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          Harbs. wrote:

                                           

                                          Oh!

                                           

                                          I didn't realize we are dealing with archaic custom encoding. Yech!!!

                                           

                                          I totally agree with Joel's sentiments. If at all possible, use unicode compliant fonts now before you regret it later...

                                           

                                          Harbs

                                           

                                          Most of the people I know working in the area of transliteration of Sanskrit/Pali/etc. aren't motivated by "you'll regret it later" arguments... I generally have much better luck with something more like this: "it's like you're printing on paper that is not acid-free and your work will disintegrate after a decade or two."

                                          • 18. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                            John Hawkinson Level 5

                                            Maybe, Joel, you could tell them how easy it was to do the right thing? How easy is it, anyhow?

                                            • 19. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                              [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                              If I needed Pali accents on a regular base, I'd add them to Peter Kahrel's Compose script:

                                              Easy Diacritics and Other Tough Glyphs

                                               

                                              Note to the OP: alas, this script will not work for you, since it is based upon proper Unicode encoded fonts.

                                              • 20. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                                Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Given the OP's preference for the old PageMaker way, probable lack of  Javascript chops, etc. I didn't go into a whole lot of detail about how  it works - I was more interested in making the "why" part of the  argument than the "how" part. It's easy, after the fourth go-round or so. The first time out was more-or-less hellish, even though I knew a bit about scripting languages and automation and such. It was worth it, though, because I knew I'd need to do it over and over again.

                                                 

                                                I have a script (written some years back) which converts folders full of InDesign documents based on font name and Unicode value. So, when it finds text set in URW Palladio M it converts the whole thing to a properly encoded font (say, something ugly and free with good coverage like Gentium) and looks for the Unicode values glyph-by-glyph, and if it encounters an incorrectly-mapped glyph (say, 00C8 for S-w-dot-below) it remaps it to the correct Unicode value (1E62).

                                                 

                                                There are a few challenges, the first time you need to set up a conversion like this:

                                                 

                                                1) Finding a font that has both all of the glyph coverage needed, and composes in more-or-less the same way

                                                2) Making a chart of all of the incorrect mappings in the old font

                                                3) Keying that chart into the script

                                                4) Reviewing the entire pile of documents post-conversion looking for reflow

                                                 

                                                Another method, which preserves the layout without the need for review, looks like this:

                                                 

                                                1) Rebuild the font with correct encodings

                                                2) Give the new font a new name (URW Palladio M Unicode)

                                                3) Use Find Font in InDesign to swap out the old with the new

                                                 

                                                Neither one is really easy for the average Joe, but both are easier for me than consigning vast amounts of translation and typesetting work to the Dustbin of History. I've used both methods with great success - except that one time where the type foundry threatened to come after me with lawyers. Can't use Method 2 without a license that permits font editing, but since the actual Pali-transcription font under discussion seems to be a legitimate, ah, "remix" of the original, I bet that the license permits editing.

                                                 

                                                Oh wait, someone's already done the font rebuild work... but he'll only give it to his "friends".

                                                 

                                                That entire page makes me sad. What a mess.

                                                • 21. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                                  YomBuddy Level 1

                                                  Joel - I don't see my work as being "for the ages," but if there is some way that I can transliterate from the font I have to a font that works easily in InDesign without retyping everything, I'm all ears (er .. make that "eyes").

                                                  • 22. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                                    John Hawkinson Level 5
                                                    Can't use Method 2 without a license that permits font editing, but since the actual Pali-transcription font under discussion seems to be a legitimate, ah, "remix" of the original, I bet that the license permits editing.

                                                    Well, that may be what the font distributors tell you, but the actual law is less clear. Consult a lawyer if it matters to you, but I think you would have an extremely good case. There is extremely little case law on shrinkwrap licenses, and I don't see that claim holding much water.

                                                     

                                                    It would be a horse of a different color were you to distribute a modified font, of course. And anything other than a one-time ephemeral modification might be different, of course.

                                                     

                                                    And I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on the Internet and this is not legal advice.

                                                    • 23. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                                      YomBuddy Level 1

                                                      This makes my head spin, Joel! I am not a programmer or even an amateur "techie," just a Louisiana Buddhist writing up things for locals interested in learning about Theravada Buddhism, and trying to do a good job of it.

                                                       

                                                      Apparently you do this for a living. Do you offer your services on the Internet?

                                                      • 24. Re: using a font with diacriticals - How?
                                                        Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Sorry for the head-spinning, I couldn't help myself.

                                                         

                                                        I have two quick responses:

                                                         

                                                        1) Well, if you don't think that you'll need to put your work into PDFs indexable by Google, or into eBooks right away, or etc.... you can sleep on this problem for a year or three, and we can figure out an interim duct-tape-and-bailing-wire way for you to key your glyphs into ID.

                                                         

                                                        2) Yeah, I'm the DTP wonk in the translation department a help-refugees-establish-lives-in-the-US nonprofit, so yes, I do this for a living. Which, speaking of living, I'm going to be pretty busy doing that for a bit, hence the delay in my response. I can give you my biz-contact information via private message if you really want to approach me as a Professional Odd Font Wrangler, or if you're in no huge rush then I'll happily continue posting to this thread. It really does look like it's possible, both legally and technically, to edit the font, and an edited font + a conversion script should set you up with easy typesetting of transliterated texts in ID without worrying about massive reflow. However, my home state just changed up its health-care provisions for refugees, so I may not even have time to read my favorite forum for a while, much less post about fonts.