20 Replies Latest reply: Jun 15, 2011 9:54 AM by Peter Spier RSS

    Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds

    fiddleflute Community Member

      I would like to know if there is any way to prevent InDesign (CS2 in my case) from hyphenating one of a pair of words that are already hyphenated.


      In other words, I would like to automatically prevent situations such as high-tem-perature, where the tem-perature is broken at the end of the line following the already hyphenated word pair.

       

      Many thanks.

        • 1. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
          Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

          In CS2 - you would have to select each word manually and Apply a "No Break"

           

          http://indesignsecrets.com/keep-words-together-with-no-break.php

           

          In CS3 You could find and replace all using GREP find and replace


          Find

          (?<=-).\w+

           

          Change Forma to

           

          No Break

           

           

           

          In CS4 and Above you could add it into the Paragraph Style

           

          In your paragarph style make go to GREP STYLE

           

          Insert

           

          <character style = no break>

          (?<=-).\w+

           

           

           

          I'd consider upgrading if this is going to be a constant battle.

          • 2. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
            fiddleflute Community Member

            Thank you, but what I really want to do is prevent it happening in the first place.

             

            I can't be the only one - isn't this a standard typographical requirement?

             

            Thanks again.

            • 3. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
              [Jongware] CommunityMVP

              fiddleflute wrote:

               

              I can't be the only one - isn't this a standard typographical requirement?

               

              Sure, hyphenating long words is a standard typographical requirement. The fact that before or after a long word, another one follows, with or without a hyphen, doesn't really matter. You probably should read more.

               

              Honestly, there is nothing to worry about. InDesign does quite a lot of background calculations to come up with this breaking point; it certainly does not pick any breaking point at random. In other words, if InDesign designates this the best possible hyphenation point, that's a fact, and any manual fiddling can only make the spacing worse.

               

              (Whether or not it's a reading-friendly breaking point is something quite else. You'll have to wait until reader-friendliness can be calculated before submitting it as a request to Adobe's programmers.)

              • 4. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

                If there was an automatic way I  would have posted it.

                 

                You can manually tweak the Hyphenation settings in the Paragraph Style options.

                 

                But what those settings would be would be a trial and error process.

                • 5. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                  fiddleflute Community Member

                  > The fact that before or after a long word, another one follows, with or without a hyphen, doesn't really matter.

                   

                  Well it does to me and probably most other people who care about style.

                   

                  For example

                  http://www.northeastern.edu/guidelines/standards/editorial_styleguide/11.html#114

                  states:

                  • If a compound word already includes a hyphen, divide only at the existing            hyphen or do not divide at all.

                   

                  > You probably should read more.

                   

                  Other that what I have read in my 25 years of editing magazines, you mean?

                   

                  > if InDesign designates this the best possible hyphenation point, that's a fact, and any manual fiddling can only make the spacing worse.

                   

                  My mistake for thinking that I might know more than a computer program or the people that designed it.

                  And you, obviously.

                  • 6. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                    Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

                    Ok I dusted off my typography book to get a ruling on this

                     

                    Another common situation to be avoided is the double-hyphenated word. A word or compound word containing a hard hyphen may appear at the end of a line, to be broken and given a second, program-inserted hyphen. Making both sides of the hard hyphen nonbreaking text will force the program to break the expression at the hard hyphen. Double-hyphenation can also occur when you've added a nonbreaking hyphen to a text expression, forcing H&J program to find another place to break it. Again, specifying it as nonbreaking text will solve the problem.

                     

                    The Complete Manual of Typography - James Felici

                    (Published 2003 (circa InDesign CS/CS2))

                     

                     

                    Again, CS2 can only apply the No Break on a per word basis.

                     

                    CS3 can do a find change for this

                     

                    And CS4 and later editions can apply this into the Paragraph Style.

                     

                     

                    Hope that helps

                    • 7. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                      Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

                      another way you can do it is to add the words to the Dictionary and choose Hyphenate (is that in CS2?)

                       

                      Edit>Spelling Dictionary

                       

                      Insert

                      high-tempearature

                       

                      Click the Hyphenate button and it looks like this

                      high-~tem~~~per~~~a~~~ture

                       

                      Then remove the ~ from bewteen tem per a ture

                       

                       

                      And it will no longer hyphenate that word at those points for the word high-temperature

                      • 8. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                        fiddleflute Community Member

                        Another common situation to be avoided is the double-hyphenated word. A word or compound word containing a hard hyphen may appear at the end of a line, to be broken and given a second, program-inserted hyphen. Making both sides of the hard hyphen nonbreaking text will force the program to break the expression at the hard hyphen. Double-hyphenation can also occur when you've added a nonbreaking hyphen to a text expression, forcing H&J program to find another place to break it. Again, specifying it as nonbreaking text will solve the problem.

                         

                        The Complete Manual of Typography - James Felici

                        (Published 2003 (circa InDesign CS/CS2))

                         

                         

                        As I said - commonly accepted style.

                        I'm quite surprised that InDesign doesn't have prevention as an option.

                         

                         

                        > Again, CS2 can only apply the No Break on a per word basis.

                        > CS3 can do a find change for this

                        > And CS4 and later editions can apply this into the Paragraph Style.

                         

                        > Hope that helps

                         

                        Indeed. Thank you very much.

                        • 9. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                          Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                          A quick glance through Chicago Manual of Style doesn't seem to cover this, at least not as being a cardinal sin. Their usual advice, and I think t would be pertinent here, is that it would be best to rewrite the sentence to move the compound word so it doeesn't need to be broken except at the hard hyphen rather than jerrymandering the spacing.

                          • 10. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                            Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

                            Believe me, I wish there was plenty of other typographical controls in Indesign, but I fear they are being neglected for pop, buzz and sparkle rather than what's really needed, just my opinion.

                             

                            The computatational rules for H&Js are very complex and the order that they're applied is logical.

                             

                            I'm not sure what adding another "rule" to this would cause issues in terms of programming.

                             

                            Seems commonly accepted though to make the word "nonbreaking".

                             

                             

                            You can fill out a feature request here https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

                             

                             

                            But seen as you're on CS2 you'd need to upgrade to the latest version IF it gets implemented (don't hold your breath)

                             

                             

                            But as I say, you can already get around this problem by upgrading to CS5 and apply the GREP style as I described.

                            • 11. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                              [Jongware] CommunityMVP

                              fiddleflute wrote:

                              [..]

                              My mistake for thinking that I might know more than a computer program or the people that designed it.

                              And you, obviously.

                               

                              Most first-posters *are*, actually, totally oblivious of the problems associated with hyphenation. Typically, resulting in questions like "how can I prevent breaking this extremely long word and disregard the fact it obviously needs two lines" or "why is my French text all hyphenated wrong according to a proof-reader".

                               

                              As you may have surmised from the other posters, adding the seemingly simple option of "do not hyphenate words that contain a discretionary hyphen" (which, despite your 25-yrs of experience, *is* something else than a 'hyphenated word' ...) is not without its drawbacks. For every "high-temperature" you offer, I can give you a dozen "auditorily-presented", "typically-stressed", "interaction-dominant", and other long word-long word compounds that I *would* prefer hyphenated at a spacing-friendly position, rather than forcing a long word onto a single line.

                               

                              That said: I just tried Eugene's trick of adding this compound word to the User dictionary, and it seems it does work; but it would require you to manually add all of these compounds. Since your CS2 is getting very old real fast, you might want to think about upgrading; in CS4 and higher, I'd probably break out a GREP style and have No Break apply automatically to all compound words up to a certain length.

                              • 12. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                peter at knowhowpro Community Member

                                fiddleflute wrote:

                                 

                                I would like to know if there is any way to prevent InDesign (CS2 in my case) from hyphenating one of a pair of words that are already hyphenated.


                                In other words, I would like to automatically prevent situations such as high-tem-perature, where the tem-perature is broken at the end of the line following the already hyphenated word pair.

                                 

                                Many thanks.

                                Have you tried a non-breaking hyphen? Search Google for terms like "InDesign non-breaking hyphen" without quotes for details.

                                 

                                HTH

                                 

                                Regards,

                                 

                                Peter

                                _______________________

                                Peter Gold

                                KnowHow ProServices

                                • 13. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                  Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                  How does that help? The point isn't to prevent breaking at the hard hyphen (as far as I can tell), but to prevent ID form adding any OTHER hyphen to the word.

                                   

                                  @ the OP, you didn't really make clear if you want to prevent breaking the first word in the compound as well. Eugene's examples don't address that.

                                  • 14. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                    fiddleflute Community Member

                                    >@ the OP, you didn't really make clear if you want to prevent breaking the first word in the compound as well. Eugene's examples don't address that.

                                     

                                    Yes I want to do that as well.

                                    Instead of 'one of a pair of words' perhaps I should have written 'either one of a pair of words'. Or indeed trio.

                                     

                                    How would GREP solve that problem?

                                    • 15. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                      Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

                                      Would there be any way for a script to search the text for hyphenated words and them to the dictionary? Perhaps on a case-by-case basis?

                                      • 16. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                        Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                        fiddleflute wrote:

                                         

                                        How would GREP solve that problem?

                                        Essentially the same thing, with a lookahead for the hyphen, I think.

                                        • 17. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                          fiddleflute Community Member

                                          Could you give me the precise code required?

                                          • 18. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                            Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                            I believe it would be \w+-(?=\w) which is one or more word characters, followed by a hyphen and  a word character (I put the hyphen inside the lookahead to be sure it is able to break).

                                            • 19. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                              Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                              Sorry, the edit didn't take on the GREP it should be \w+(?=-\w)

                                               

                                              The hyphen goes after the + sign, NOT outside the parentheses.

                                              • 20. Re: Preventing additional hyphenation of hyphenated compounds
                                                Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                                Drat. That should be the hyphen goes after the = sign. I just can't type today.