14 Replies Latest reply on Jun 19, 2011 11:34 PM by MarcinMWM

    AE 5.5 3D animation not smooth

    MarcinMWM Level 1

      Recently I tried to create some composition using AE and Premiere, last I have been working with those several years ago. So I downloaded the trial of both, and prepared a sequence in Premiere with some imported compositions from AE.

       

      The compositions contains simple camera movement inside a cubic panorama. But when the composition is exported either directly through AE (make movie), or through Premiere the output is not smooth in playback.

       

      Till now I have been trying to use different output formats, even to not compressed one, different frame rates, and output settings  but still I can not get a smooth movement.

       

      The most irritating part is that the ripping is noticeable only when played on computers, when I lunched the same movie on a LCD Samsung TV (b650) it was perfectly smooth. Also when watching frame by frame there are no noticeable jumps in the movement.
      Also the movement itself is not fast, and the preview form AE also looks smooth.

       

      Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

        • 1. Re: AE 5.5 3D animation not smooth
          Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

          Your monitor has an odd refresh rate or you have a problem with hardware overlay/ accelarated playback in whatever player you are using, meaning you should check your graphgics card settings. And also keep in mind that in particular "smooth" playback in Premiere is dependent on working within the standard broadcast and film resolutions so specific hardware acceleration options can even kick in...

           

          Mylenium

          • 2. Re: AE 5.5 3D animation not smooth
            MarcinMWM Level 1

            The created video has been played on several different hardware, with several different player/codec combinations. I don't assume that 10 or so diferent PC's have odd resolutions or otherwise problems playback problems as the created material is the only one that has problems plyaing on them.

            • 3. Re: AE 5.5 3D animation not smooth
              Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

              But you're not really telling us what you are doing... No offense, just saying that something doesn't work is no productive way to resolve such issues. You simply could be overcranking your data rates or still have some weird issues with CoDecs, so unless you provide more info about your render and output settings, comp size and what hardware you are actually running, I'm afraid this is not going anywhere.

               

              Mylenium

              • 4. Re: AE 5.5 3D animation not smooth
                MarcinMWM Level 1

                The composition is set to HVD/HDTV 720 25 (also tested 29.97) (I will skip the premiere sequence settings as generating the composition dirctly from AE gives the same ripping output).

                 

                Reneded on default  "Best settings" (only tried to modify the opengl renderer) using loossles/h.264 output module (both with default .6Mbit and modified 20Mbit bitrate)

                also tested composition set to default PAL D1/DV and output to default AVI DV PAL 48khz

                 

                 

                Rendered with those settings on

                Windows 7 x64 pro /amd 840 4x3.2Ghz 4GB of mem with ATI radeon HD 5450/1GB with caltalyst 11.5

                 

                Also tried on

                Windows 7 x64 pro 2xIntel Xeon E5430 @2.6Ghz LGA771 16GB of ram and Nvidia 9800GT/1GB with 268.58 drivers

                Windows 7 x64 pro i7-860 8GB of ram and nvidia 9600GT/1GB with 268.58 drivers

                Windows 7 x64 pro i7-860 8GB of ram and AMD Radeon HD 4850/1GB with catalyst 11.5 drivers

                 

                I think that those pc's are well capable for both creating and playing the conntent.

                 

                As mentioned I was trying to output the created video on several different players and pc configurations, and as mentioned for now only the player build in the Samsung B650 LCD TV gave me a smooth playback expiriance and therefore assume that this is a playback/codec issue.

                 

                Could you recomend a player/codec combination that is tested and generaly gives a good output?

                • 5. Re: AE 5.5 3D animation not smooth
                  Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                  You should have no problems playing WMV at the data rates you used in plain old Windows Media Player. I can do so on a 5 year old workstation with a Quadro FX1100.... So that very much brings us back to my original point: You may still need to adjust your driver settings or have a generic graphics hardware acceleration problem on these systems. This could even include such trivial things as hooking up monitors via bad cabling/ using converters and VGA ports still. if that is not it, you may wish to check your footage interpretation and render settings again, meaning framerates and field settings in particular. If the stutter is "baked into" the files, that would be pretty the only way to explain it. The only other stuttering could come from time-remapping without interpolation, but you didn't mention any of that. You could possibly provide one of the WMV files for others to verify whether it's just a playback issue or the files themselves...

                   

                  Mylenium

                  • 6. Re: AE 5.5 animation not smooth
                    MarcinMWM Level 1

                    http://www.tdxvsdl.psilon.pl/mirandaftp/16_2_dzien.mp4

                    http://www.tdxvsdl.psilon.pl/mirandaftp/16_2_dzien_1lowbitrate.mp4
                    http://www.tdxvsdl.psilon.pl/mirandaftp/compsettings.JPG
                    http://www.tdxvsdl.psilon.pl/mirandaftp/rend_settings.JPG

                     

                    Most noticable around 00:07 and 00:14.

                     

                    This is a 3d content, but even a simple scroll of a large 2d footage outputs a ripping effect. (like this one:)

                    http://www.tdxvsdl.psilon.pl/mirandaftp/1_Scena_2.mp4

                     

                     

                     

                    This is looking like a playback issue. But still most of the test system ara capable of playing any other video without such issues. Only those created with AE play with issues. If in general most of the systems are capable of palying any video without issue, and this one on most works bad then I would rader assume that this is because of some AE settings. I'm not able to check every PC that will potenialy play the video if its capable or not to paly it.

                    • 7. Re: AE 5.5 animation not smooth
                      Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                      There is, what I would call 24p judder, but it's definitely not something I would attribute to playback issues. It really looks like you are messing up the framerates. Does your footage interpretation match? Specific to the 3D rendered files you may also have a problem where the shutter phase in your 3D program is not correct, resulting in jumpy motion and naturalyl, it would help if you would use motion blur there. You realyl need to go back and re-check everything, something is very wrong here....

                       

                      Mylenium

                      • 8. Re: AE 5.5 animation not smooth
                        MarcinMWM Level 1

                        Could you please be a little more specific. I got a little confused here

                         

                        The  rendered compositon it self has only a 6 3d layers (still images) and a  camera, and it is the only object that is moving (exacly cameras point  of interest) . It contains no other footage. The render is done cirectly  on this composition.

                        • 9. Re: AE 5.5 animation not smooth
                          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Here's a post I made months ago about the problem of Judder, critical panning speed, and other related issues. The ASC Cinematography handbook has a table of critical panning speeds for shooting 35mm. If you hit one of these "bad" speeds your shot will judder across the screen. In general, if you follow the seven second rule most of your shots will work. That means that it should take 7 seconds for a critical item to go from one side of the screen to the other.

                           

                          Your example videos clearly demonstrate the 24 p judder problem. If you bring it into AE and step through the shot one frame at a time you can see that the motion is smooth. If you change the frame rate. I hope it helps you understand the problem.

                           

                          Rick Gerard wrote:
                          May 18, 2009 9:51 PM in response to: matt peberdy
                          Re: "Stuttering" when panning/zooming a still image...?

                           

                           

                           

                          There are certain speeds that sync up with frame rates so that they cause judders, jitters, stuttering or whatever you want to call it. The slower the frame rate the more obvious the problem.

                           

                          If you've ever watched a western on TV or at the movies you've seen the stagecoach wheels turn backwards at various speeds. This is an example of the problem. It's actually called a stroboscopic effect. Mechanics, in the good old days when cars had carburetors and distributors, used to hook up a timing light to the #1 spark plug so that a light flashed on a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley. This light had the effect of stopping the rotation visually. That's exactly what's happening when you are moving your photograph across the frame at one of the critical speeds. Your eye is fooled and your brain can't process the movement smoothly.

                           

                          There are also other cases where the sub pixel interpolation between frames causes areas of detail to flicker between frames. The latter problem can be seen by viewing your comp a frame at a time while zoomed in to say 800% and observing the edge detail. This problem can be especially nasty when you're trying to do a smooth title or credit roll. The horizontal lines that make up fine type can almost completely vanish between fields or frames if the text is moving at the wrong speed. You can test this out by creating a single pixel high horizontal line in AE and animating it from bottom to top of the frame. The only speed where you'll get a nice solid line in every frame or field is one that is an exact multiple of the frame rate. IOW, 1 frame 1 pixel of movement, 1 frame 2 pixels of movement, and so on. Move at 1 frame and 1.33 pixels of movement and the line will appear to completely disappear then return.

                           

                          If you are working at 24fps progressive you'll find that the juddering caused by motion at critical speeds is much more problematic than projects at 29.97 fps. Interlacing, as was mentioned before, helps and gives you a wider range of motion, but interlacing can introduce more pronounced flickering in the detail if you are right at one of these critical speeds.

                           

                          This problem extends to shooting as well. Cinematography manuals contain critical panning speed charts that list the number of degrees per second you can pan with various lens (angle of view) and shutter speed combinations. There isn't a videographer out there that's tried shooting 24P video and not ended up with an unusable pan due to these critical speeds.

                           

                          The solution to successfully animating detailed images is to use the right speed (pixels per second) for your frame rate, add extra motion blur to hide the problem, or reduce the amount of detail in the image. These are the only solutions that I know of. They all limit design and timing, but what good is your design if it makes your eyes go buggy.

                           

                          The best way I know if to tell if the problem is a playback issue is to use a device or program that tells you when you're dropping frames. You can use QT (by looking at the playback rate) or in FC or PPro by having the program report dropped frames. If it's a data rate issue you need more horsepower or a better codec.

                           

                          Just for fun I put your example up on YouTube played back at 50 fps. It now takes about 7 seconds for the ceiling beams to move across the screen.

                          • 10. Re: AE 5.5 animation not smooth
                            Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                            Great explanation, Rick.

                             

                            If you wanted to copy that explanation into the Community Publishing System, it would be easier for people to find and refer to when these questions arise.

                            • 11. Re: AE 5.5 animation not smooth
                              Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Consider it done. You'll find the article here.

                              • 12. Re: AE 5.5 animation not smooth
                                Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                Thanks, Rick. Looks good. There's a typo in the title, by the way.

                                • 14. Re: AE 5.5 3D animation not smooth
                                  MarcinMWM Level 1

                                  Thank you for the great explanation I will try to fallow the provided instruction and check how the video will look then.