27 Replies Latest reply on Jun 18, 2011 2:13 PM by Noel Carboni

    ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?

    Ed Gerson Level 1

      How can a .dng in ACR be "Saved As" a .jpg without the .jpg process blowing out the highlights all over again?

       

      The affected images have to be tweaked yet again in ACR.

       

       

       

       

        • 1. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
          Jeff Schewe Level 5

          It's not at all clear from your post what the issues are...

           

          First off, what version of Photoshop/Camera Raw? What platform? What color space are you processing the images out in? What working space do you have Photoshop set to use? Are you saving the JPEGs out of Camera Raw or Photoshop? If Photoshop, what JPEG settings? Are you doing a Save As or Save for Web and Devices?

           

          As you can see, we need a lot more info before we can help you troubleshoot...

          • 2. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
            Ed Gerson Level 1

            CS4  MacBook Pro OS 10.5.8

             

            I drag the .dng images to Bridge

            Select All

            Command R

            Images are adjusted in ACR

            Select All

            Save As jpgs

             

            Highlights get readjusted in the jpg mode, about 25% have to be redone 

            due to highlight burnout (again).

             

            Thanks - Ed

            • 3. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
              Noel Carboni Level 7

              Are you saying you're opening your raw DNG files through Camera Raw, saving them as JPEGs, then opening them through Camera Raw again?

               

              If so, before we address what could be wrong, why are you opening JPEGs in this manner?

               

              Normally folks do not normally use JPEG as an intermediate working format.

               

              -Noel

              • 4. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                Ed Gerson Level 1

                I use ACR via Bridge with .dng and with .jpg

                 

                With a couple hundred .dng images I'm not doing individual files opened up in PS CS4.

                 

                So the question I am asking pertains to the .jpg conversion process itself: when a .dng

                is saved as a .jpg in ACR or in PS CS4, is there a difference in rendering and why? 

                • 5. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                  I'm sorry, Ed, but I still do not have a solid handle on exactly what you're asking.  I guess I'm particularly dense today...

                   

                  You're saying you're developing DNG images into JPEGs and saving them directly from Adobe Camera Raw, but when you open the JPEG images later you're finding the highlights blown out?

                   

                  My first guess might be that you're not watching your histogram carefully enough when you're setting the developing parameters, because if the histogram doesn't show blown highlights then the saved files won't have blown highlights, as far as I've seen.

                   

                  • What color space are you creating the images in?

                   

                  • How are you subsequently opening the JPEG images when you see these "blown out" parts?

                   

                  If I've missed something or got something completely wrong I apologize...

                   

                  Feel free to post some screen grabs showing what you're seeing while you're developing a DNG and then when you see the blown out highlights in the JPEG that was saved.  That could help clarify things a lot.

                   

                  -Noel

                  • 6. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                    Ed Gerson Level 1

                    I use Bridge > ACR to work on the .dng files.

                     

                    Once .dng files are corrected in ACR, I "Save As" all these .dng files 

                    to .jpg files.

                     

                    The problems begin when these .jpg files are re-opened again in ACR 

                    via Bridge

                    to crop the images. Open up hundreds of images in PS CS4 for cropping? 

                    No thanks!

                     

                    The .dng  > .jpg process reintroduces, in about 25% of the files, 

                    somewhat similar blown

                    highlights which ACR squelched maybe hours before in the 

                    preceding .dng files. So why

                    do they return all over again maybe not to the same extent but they do 

                    return.

                     

                    I love ACR and want to maximize its potential but from my point of 

                    view, which

                    I am sure is incomplete at this time, .dng > .jpg destruction is a 

                    puzzle and a workflow

                    detriment.

                     

                     

                    - Ed

                    • 7. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                      Ed Gerson Level 1

                       

                      MacBook Pro OS 10.5.8

                       

                      RGB 1998

                      >

                      I drag the .dng images to Bridge

                      Select All

                      Command R

                      Images are adjusted in ACR

                      Select All

                      Save As highest quality jpgs, never as Web/Devices

                       

                      A copy folder of these .jpg files is then re-imported

                      into Bridge > ACR for the purpose of rapid cropping

                      without necessitating a huge system load by opening

                      them all in PS. ACR, not PS CS4, is my preferred tool

                      prior to using layer adjustments. ACR is amazing.

                       

                      Again, this problem is in perhaps 25% of the re-opened .jpg's

                      after they have been saved from .dng's, both file versions

                      processed in ACR.

                       

                      Ed Gerson

                      Gerson Studio

                      117 Ellen Lane

                      Morgantown, WV 26505

                      1-304-599-2311

                      Mobile: 304.685.2685

                      www.gersonstudio.com

                      gerson1@earthlink.net

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      >

                      Highlights get readjusted in the jpg mode, about 25% have to be 

                      redone due to highlight burnout (again).PS CS4

                       

                      • 8. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                        Ed Gerson Level 1

                        I have folders with 200 or more images. Why crop in PS when you can do 

                        it in ACR? If your crop frame clips the corner you lose image data in 

                        CS4;

                        ACR has auto-adjustable boundaries if your frame hits the image sides.

                         

                        I crop .dng's in ACR and save them as highest quality .jpg's. 

                        Sometimes I have to recrop a few .jpgs using ACR, which is where I see 

                        the burned out highlights

                        reappearing.

                         

                        Workflow:  .NEF > .dng > adjust & crop > "Save As" .jpg. These .jpg's 

                        go to website galleries. Retouching later on is on .jpg's which 

                        automatically go to .psd's

                        when layers are added; flatten the results, save again as a highest 

                        quality .jpg.

                         

                        Thanks - Ed

                         

                        Ed Gerson

                        Gerson Studio

                        117 Ellen Lane

                        Morgantown, WV 26505

                        1-304-599-2311

                        Mobile: 304.685.2685

                        www.gersonstudio.com

                        gerson1@earthlink.net

                        • 9. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                          JimHess-ra2Osl Level 3

                          I think you need to rethink your workflow.  JPEG is a distribution format, it's not an interim format for continual working.  Yes, I understand you are saving changes to JPEG images as PSD files, but that's not the smart way of doing it.  You make the changes to the DNG file, and keep that file as your master.  If you want to crop a little bit differently then you can create a virtual copy of that DNG file and make your changes in that.  The only logical time to create a JPEG image is when the editing is finished, and you needed a JPEG file for the web or to send to an online printing service.

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                            Ed Gerson Level 1

                            I agree. It always helps to go back upstream and rethink.There are professional photographers who shoot jpg

                            only. It's not my style (nor my ability to do so) right now.

                             

                            One of the MAJOR MAJOR caveats I have in PS CS4 is to crop hundreds or make hundreds of image changes

                            then lose all those changes and crops in the "Save As" or "Done" phase. Another discussion for another day or

                            should I reroute this as a new question in ACR?

                             

                            Thanks for your helpful insight.

                            • 11. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                              JimHess-ra2Osl Level 3

                              Your initial comment did not indicate that you were working with original JPEG images.  In that instance, have you considered opening those images in ACR and doing your cropping and other adjustments there and treating those jpegs as your master files?  If I'm being too elementary, or don't fully understand the problem, I apologize.  Based on your response I may not reply anymore to this thread

                              • 12. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                Ed Gerson Level 1

                                Honestly I don't know how I got into this workflow! I think it was 

                                such a rush getting rid of one third of the .NEF file baggage by 

                                "Saving As" .dng's.

                                Then for online galleries I dummied down to .jpg's BUT noticed a big 

                                need for cropping so back to ACR. Of course this could be done in .dng

                                form. But you get into these habits. At any rate, once re-imported via 

                                Bridge into ACR is when I noticed hey, why are those burned out 

                                highlights

                                and clipped shadows still in some of the images?

                                 

                                Your answer is the most helpful I've received, keep up the good work.

                                 

                                Rather than concentrate on what I was doing what I was doing, you 

                                concentrated

                                on the why was I doing it this way. No problemo!

                                • 13. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                  JimHess-ra2Osl Level 3

                                  Well, I don't know how much more I can really help you with.  I normally use Lightroom and export my copies from that program.  It works a little bit differently than Photoshop/ACR.  What I would try to do (maybe it's a stupid solution, but I would try) is create an action that would take the DNG images, open them in Photoshop, convert the color profile to sRGB and then save the JPEG copies to be posted to the web.  I don't know if that would do anything for your clipping problem but it would at least be worth a try.  If Jeff Schewe sees this and says how stupid of an idea it is, I will understand.

                                  • 14. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                    The Image Processor script could do that I believe.

                                     

                                    I was questioning the workflow involving saving then re-opening JPEGs as well.

                                     

                                    Regarding your specific problem with opening JPEGs through Camera Raw and seeing blown highlights, assuming you didn't save the JPEGs with clipping, then the default settings you have must be causing an exposure increase.

                                     

                                    But there's no way in hell I would ever set Camera Raw to open JPEGs in the first place.  That's just wrong, in my opinion.

                                     

                                    Why not do something like this, which avoids saving and reopening JPEGs entirely:

                                     

                                    1.  Open your group of DNG files into Camera Raw.

                                    2.  Set crop, exposure, etc. there for all your images.

                                    3.  Use the [Done] button.

                                    4.  In Photoshop, fire up File - Scripts - Image Processor.

                                    5.  Open all your DNG images, and save as JPEG with the dimensions you want.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                      JimHess-ra2Osl Level 3

                                      I typically don't open JPEG images in Camera Raw either.  The only reason I suggested here is so that the OP might have a little more flexibility when working with photographers who only shoot JPEG.  In that instance I think ACR could provide some benefit.

                                      • 16. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                        Ed Gerson Level 1

                                        You would be using CS5, I have CS4 which has no access to File > 

                                        Scripts. This same action might theoretically be done in ACR by Select 

                                        All, right click and Custom sizing but maybe you should "Save As" to a 

                                        different folder. So I guess it's time to move to CS5 as its ACR or 

                                        mini Bridge saves .dng's as .jpg's without blowing out some of their 

                                        highlights. Sigh.

                                        • 17. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                          Ed Gerson Level 1

                                          There are some big names shooting jpg only. They will challenge you to 

                                          see the difference in a converted RAW and a jpg original, there is a 

                                          very slight drop off in quality but you're not likely to see it unless 

                                          looking for it.

                                           

                                          Somehow I got accustomed to saving as high quality jpgs because of the 

                                          huge file accumulations from weddings, bar mitzvah, senior portraits. 

                                          I have simply been able to handle more files quicker, and they are 

                                          good up to 20x24, even after having been worked over as .psd's (huge 

                                          files again). I don't evangelize anything and avoid those who do, I 

                                          simply got used to working this way and suddenly realized I was having 

                                          to redo too darned many .jpg files which were "Saved As" .jpg's from 

                                          ACR .dng files. Whether the advantages of CS5's File > Script is what 

                                          is needed, chances are I'll be finding out in the near future. All 

                                          together now: Sigh.

                                           

                                          - Ed

                                          • 18. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                            JimHess-ra2Osl Level 3

                                            The image processor has been part of Photoshop for several versions.  It might not be under the exact menu heading, but I'm sure it's there.  I never had Photoshop CS4 so I don't know where it is, or if it is under a different menu.  In Photoshop CS5, Windows, it is located under File/Scripts/Image Processor.  It's there, and it's quite useful.

                                             

                                            As far as image "quality" is concerned, there is no difference between raw and JPEG images.  The big difference is in what can be done in post processing.  A raw image is more like a film  negative, giving you much more latitude in your image processing.  If a photographer is just a photographer, and doesn't do any post processing then they won't see any advantage in shooting raw.  I have a son in law who travels extensively and shoots nothing but JPEG and gets superb results.  But he is so busy that he just doesn't have time to do any post processing.

                                             

                                            If you consult the Photoshop help file, I'm sure you'll be able to find the image processor.  As I said, it has been an integral part of Photoshop for several versions.  Another place for you to look would be in Bridge.  The image processor is accessed from tools/Photoshop.

                                            • 19. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                              Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                              JimHess wrote:

                                               

                                              As far as image "quality" is concerned, there is no difference between raw and JPEG images.  The big difference is in what can be done in post processing.

                                               

                                               

                                              Well, gotta stop you right there. JPEG from a camera is limited to the on-board camera processing functions...how well a camera can do sharpening and noise reduction can be very, very limited. A raw file through Camera Raw with ACR 6.x (sorry, not 5.X in CS4) has really changed the ground rules regarding image sharpening and noise reduction. The potential for substantially improved image quality is there with the proper settings in ACR for a raw file. Seriously, what ACR can to with a raw file is far superior to any of the cameras that I'm aware of...

                                               

                                              And then I must ask question of what constitutes post processing? Are you talking processing in Camera Raw? I would consider that "processing" not post-processing. Post processing is Photoshop...

                                               

                                              Raw has the potential for vastly better image quality on a whole host of criteria from tone, color and detail...

                                              • 20. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                hsbn Level 3

                                                Just my 2cents, I think you workflow will benefit so much from using Lightroom. You should give it a try. It can save you ton of headache. Import RAW, adjust/crop, sync as many photo as you like, when you're happy export them as jpg. Your original file intact, you don't have to worry about duplicate copies. You can delete jpg export when you're done to save some space.

                                                • 21. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                  Ed Gerson wrote:

                                                   

                                                  You would be using CS5, I have CS4 which has no access to File > Scripts


                                                  If course CS4 has File - Scripts.  You really need to slow down a bit here I think.

                                                   

                                                  Does your Photoshop CS4 not have this menu (screen grab from Photoshop CS4 Standard here)?

                                                   

                                                  ImageProcessor.jpg

                                                   

                                                  See also:

                                                   

                                                  http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7426a.html

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                    Ed Gerson wrote:

                                                     

                                                    All  together now: Sigh.

                                                     

                                                    I'm sighing, but not because CS4 is missing any functionality.

                                                     

                                                    The point behind the little suggested workflow I listed above was that you do your color balancing, exposure, cropping, etc. in the Camera Raw tool and it stores metadata associated with each raw DNG file.  Then you open that file through Camera Raw and use it for publication via whatever process you want.

                                                     

                                                    • Save images directly as JPEG from Camera Raw (if the sizes it offers are good for you).

                                                     

                                                    • Save images through the Image Processor, which automates some simple processing tasks for you (e.g., resizing).

                                                     

                                                    • Open individual images into Photoshop to post-process them (e.g., retouching a particular portrait or something).

                                                     

                                                    The key here is that Camera Raw provides the same developing settings however you (re)open the raw file for each subsequent use.

                                                     

                                                    • If in light of all this you still DO want to save an intermediate file for later use, may I suggest .PSD format as that is a lossless format. Consider also saving in 16 bits/channel and ProPhoto RGB color space.

                                                     

                                                    Lightroom is a possible alternative, as it's highly optimized for flushing a large number of images through a workflow pipeline, though I don't need/use it because my digital darkroom activity is more along the lines of individual edits rather than production work.

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 23. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                      Ed Gerson Level 1

                                                      I once downloaded Lightroom onto my MacBook Pro. It was trashed. 

                                                      Completely overwhelmed my computer resources.

                                                       

                                                      Your Lightroom implementation sounds rational to me I give you that, 

                                                      but I've heard these Lightroom evangelists for years and that's too 

                                                      many sliders for me, enough already with endless hyper-tweaking. Give 

                                                      me ACR with an additional GUI for curves adjustment instead of those 

                                                      silly overpopulations of sliders for "black", etc. Love ACR.

                                                      • 24. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                        Ed Gerson Level 1

                                                        Ah, there it is: File > Show All Menu Items. However, here we go 

                                                        again, am I supposed to do a "Select All" of a 200 file folder and 

                                                        open them in PS?

                                                         

                                                        What is the point of using PS when ACR is faster and enormously less 

                                                        demanding on your system?

                                                        • 25. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                          Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                          Ed Gerson wrote:

                                                           

                                                          However, here we go again, am I supposed to do a "Select All" of a 200 file folder and open them in PS?


                                                          Where, in the following, do I suggest you open all your files in Photoshop proper?  In step 5 I'm specifically describing what you should ask the Image Processor to do.  IT will open the images, one by one, and do what you want, producing the output files you want.

                                                           

                                                          1. Open your group of DNG files into Camera Raw.

                                                          2. Set crop, exposure, etc. there for all your images.

                                                          3. Use the [Done] button.

                                                          4. In Photoshop, fire up File - Scripts - Image Processor.

                                                          5. Open all your DNG images, and save as JPEG with the dimensions you want.

                                                           

                                                          As far as getting the 200 files into Camera Raw, you're on your own as I'm a PC user and I doubt my specific instructions would help you much there.  Clearly you already know how to do it as implied by your mention of ACR being faster.

                                                           

                                                          The advantage of the Image Processor is that you get image size options you don't get by saving files directly from Camera Raw.

                                                           

                                                          Take a few moments and actually TRY IT on a few files.

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          • 26. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                            Ed Gerson Level 1

                                                            You've offered help, thank you so much. I'm simply rebelling against 

                                                            the endless running around from one pull down to another and dodging 

                                                            between PS and ACR although not Lightroom as others have suggested. 

                                                            Different workflows for different people.

                                                             

                                                            Perhaps CS6 will tackle the real issue, which is a simple and elegant 

                                                            convergence of GUI functionality.

                                                             

                                                            Best regards, Ed

                                                             

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            >

                                                            As far as getting the 200 files into Camera Raw, you're on your own 

                                                            as I'm a PC user and I doubt my specific instructions would help you 

                                                            much there.  Clearly you already know how to do it as implied by 

                                                            your mention of ACR being faster.

                                                            >

                                                            -Noel

                                                            >

                                                            • 27. Re: ACR: .dng > .jpg   How to prevent highlights from blowing out yet again?
                                                              Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                              You're welcome, and of course you should follow whatever course you feel is right.  All I've been doing is trying to provide some additional education.

                                                               

                                                              I'll close with this:  I'll wager you won't find a lot of folks around here who think creating lossy 8 bit JPEG intermediate files is the right approach where making products from your raw files is your goal.  The whole concept is that the developing and re-developing of those raw files can be repeated through the stored metadata for whatever uses you require, providing the highest possible quality.

                                                               

                                                              -Noel