21 Replies Latest reply on Jun 22, 2011 9:08 AM by zoom design

    .pdf from InDesign huge!

    zoom design Level 1

      Hello -- I am trying to reduce the size of my InDesign menus so that people will open the link online and through their email . . . I've tried everything I see on the discussion forum --  with no success.


      I made the images 240ppi in Photoshop at the exact dimensions it needs to be in the InDesign doc.

      It is embedding four fonts . . . tried changing them to outlines with no document size change . . .

      The other graphics are created in Illustrator as vector.


      The menu is 3 pages and "saving as smallest size" comes to 4.4mb ! ! ! !

      When I use "reduce file size" there is no change . . . .


      Here is the website with the menus attached:



      Please help!

        • 1. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          Huge in the eye of the beholder. 4.4 megs seems quite reasonable to me, but I would certainly knock those images down to 100ppi or so.



          • 2. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
            Larry G. Schneider Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            When accessing the PDF in Acrobat most of the space is taken up with Shading Information (+4MB) but no real shading comes across for me. The images are shown as only 100ppi if the PDF is opened in AI but it also says than an unknown image construct was encountered. I'm assuming there's something that's not showing in the downloaded PDF. Do you have another copy to post somewhere?

            • 3. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
              zoom design Level 1

              HI Larry,


              Here is an even shorter on that is taking up 6.3 mbs!!!!


              Can't figure this out . . .


              thanks for your help.

              • 4. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                Larry G. Schneider Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                You'll need to use something like yousendit.com or something to post the file. Attaching it here won't work anymore. Here's what I see on the first page of the PDF opened in Acrobat Pro. What else is supposed to be there?


                Picture 1.png

                • 5. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                  Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                  Finding the problem isn't really difficult.


                  Open up your resultant PDF file in Acrobat and invoke the PDF Optimizer function. Click on the Audit space usage button on the top, right corner. You will find that over 4 megabytes of your PDF file is shading information. This has nothing to do with what you did in InDesign or any of your export settings, but rather, the logo that you brought in from Illustrator.


                  In that logo you have an exceptionally complex vector diagram of leaves and berries made up of many gradient meshes. It is beautiful, but the tremendous amount of detailed vector artwork yields Illustrator and PDF files that are tremendous in size. You either need to simplify that artwork in terms of its vector complexity or you need to rasterize that part of the logo (preferably at a reasonably high resolution). Personally, I would opt for the simplification of vector art work.


                  All the other hackery you tried should be avoided. Don't do outlining of fonts or any other self-destructive activity. That has nothing to do with your problem. Nor are the fonts a problem in any way.


                  Two other issues with your file.


                  (1)     Based upon what I see in the PDF file, you haven't updated your copy of InDesign 7. The current version is 7.0.4 and you have 7.0.0. Many anomalies have been fixed since the software first went out. There are very good reasons we release these updates. Please apply them!


                  (2)     You should NOT output PDF converting all the colors to RGB? Why do that? Both Reader and Acrobat can very easily display PDF files with CMYK or mixtures of CMYK and RGB. This really messes up colors, especially black when printing. I would strongly recommend that you export using either the High Quality Print or the PDF/X-4 settings, neither of which do any stupid color conversion tricks.


                            - Dov

                  • 6. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                    Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Two things strike me here.


                    1. You need it for online and email - so you don't need it print quality.


                    Why are you making the images 240 ppi? That's a bit high for online - you'd only need 150ish for desktop printers so folks at home could print it out and it would be fine for viewing online.


                    2. That image of the berrys is very detailed. Again, you don't need this detail for online or home printers, or for someone to see this on their mobile device.


                    I would make that whole image Raster @ 150 - 200 ppi



                    Those two things for the online version should drastically reduce the file size.



                    But 4.4 mb isn't that huuuge.

                    • 7. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)



                      I'm removing your personal contact information from your post. In future you might want to delete it from your email responses before pressing send.

                      • 8. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                        BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                        I'll go even further than that and say that most restaurant website suck...big time. One of the reasons being PDF menus.


                        Get rid of the PDF menus and create a nice page in HTML. Your customers will appreciate it.




                        I call your attention to number 6.



                        • 9. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Yes a nice menu page would be very nice to have on a restaraunt website.

                          • 10. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                            zoom design Level 1

                            Thank you everyone for all your support and knowledge.


                            I changed the logo to a jpg and voila the file size dropped to 126k -- just what I was looking for


                            Haven't had a chance to upload it - but will soon.


                            Thank you for telling me about updating my InDesign + I agree -- a menu coded right into the website is a very nice way to display a menu.

                            I'll keep that in mind.


                            Thank you thank you thank you!

                            • 11. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                              John Hawkinson Level 5
                              I changed the logo to a jpg and voila the file size dropped to 126k -- just what I was looking for

                              JPEG is a very bad choice for logos. JPEG compression cannot express hard edges, they will always be fuzzy. If you must use a raster format, please use anything else. PNG, TIFF, even GIF.

                              • 12. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                Done properly, one save as a JPG should not create a problem, especially if the file is to be viewed on screen.



                                • 13. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                                  Oh dear, a technical disagreement. Perhaps we could start a new thread? Or, Bob, could you look at my recent response in http://forums.adobe.com/thread/863976?start=3.


                                  In short, I disagree, both for this specific case and for the general case.

                                  zoomdesign should not use JPEG for his logo, there are better compression format choices with effectively no downsides.


                                  In general, JPEG compression is not mathemetically capable of expressing sharp edges, just as you cannot represent a square wave with the sum of sine waves. You can get infinitely close, however. So you can adjust the parameters of the JPEG algorithm to give you better fidelity, and in many cases to the point where it does no effective compression at all. I would say that this is both a bad recommendation for a non-expert user, as well as not "done properly" since you are then mis-using JPEG and other formats would be wiser.


                                  Bob's post suggests that perhaps most of the problems with JPEG artifacts are from repeated editing; I'm not sure if that is his intent. I'm not sure what to say to that -- JPEG artifacts are quite visible on a single trip through the JPEG compression algorithm on images with hard sharp edges. I haven't hard to deal with multiple repeaed JPEG edis of such things (because usually the anwer is "throw away the JPEG and start over"), so I'm honestly not sure how they degrade on repeated use. But the problem is sufficiently bad from a single edit that they should be avoided.

                                  • 14. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                    Read the first two words of my post, John.



                                    • 15. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                                      Read the one hundred and thirty second through one hundred and forty ninth of mine, if you would?


                                      (second half of the last sentence of the 3rd paragraph)

                                      • 16. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                        MT.Freelance Level 4

                                        I would second the recommendation for converting to a PNG, though not for the same reasons listed in other posts.

                                        The PNG-24 format supports full color, as with JPEG, but also supports transparency. The file size tends to be slightly higher than JPEG, but not enough to be an issue in most cases. The support for transparency means that the one raster logo file can be repurposed across different backgrounds.

                                        The PNG-8 format also supports transparency, but is a limited color format, like GIF. If your logo design does not have a large number of colors and gradients, then this format (or GIF) would work, and reduce the file size, too.


                                        In the end, if you are happy with the JPEG, and the client is happy with the final design, that is what matters, IMO.



                                        • 17. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          I thought the OP solved the problem already? Happy with the JPG.


                                          I'd be happy with it too. It's going in a PDF out to customers and through email.


                                          Providing a raster image even if it gets clunky in the text or aliased etc. it's probably better that way.


                                          The amount of vector logos in PDFs on the web is astonishing. In fact anytime some body asks me "where can I get their logo" i find a PDF on their website with a vector logo.


                                          This basically means anyway can take your logo and use it.


                                          I'd be much happier with a bitty raster version than a clean raster version as it would stop people stealing the logo to a certain extent.



                                          Any way - this is all moot.


                                          Problem is solved and I really don't want to explain to a client why the PNG of the logo I provided to them for the website doesn't show up in some browsers or on mobile devices. And have to resupply logos.


                                          It's hard enough explaining the difference between the vector logo and a raster, never mind the plethora of raster versions and their nuiances and perculiarities across many different platforms and browsers!


                                          JPEG works. It solved the OPs dillema.


                                          Move on.

                                          • 18. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                            You're generalizing something and I'm speaking of something quite specific. For this one job nobody is going to notice or care.


                                            I can't even say what I would have done since I wouldn't have even thought to use a PDF for this. I would created a page on the website. FWIW, I usually use GIF or PNG for such purposes.


                                            Have at it, I'm not going to beat a dead horse.



                                            • 19. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                              Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              For what it's worth - I've saved that logo from the menu as a jpg and png


                                              LOGO ONLY


                                              Opening PDF directly in Photoshop and cropping


                                              PNG 30kb


                                              JPG 50kb


                                              No visible difference


                                              Exporting PDF to PNG and JPG then cropping


                                              PNG 76 kb


                                              JPG 225kb


                                              No visible difference



                                              Opening PDF in Illy and extracting logo then using Save for Web

                                              This yielded the worst result yet!


                                              Both blurred beyond legibility and both as bad as each other



                                              Using the Export for Microsoft Office yields a much better PNG (no option for JPG)


                                              But the exact same quality as the first set of PNG + JPG that were Identical.



                                              I realise this isn't very accurate but either way the image looked identical in both formats.



                                              So there are right and wrong ways to make the JPG or PNG.



                                              In my tests here not a single PNG looked better than JPG. The PNG was smaller in size.



                                              But in my experience I've had issues with PNG on some browsers and mobile devices - and Email campaign software.

                                              • 20. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                                Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                My point is


                                                If I was doing this - I'd explore a variant of export options to different formats and comparing what looks best and suits my needs.



                                                For instance. I don't export a JPEG from InDesign. I export it to a PDF Interactive, @ 96 ppi with a viewing distance of 75%


                                                Why? Because it's actual size that way and Acrobat PDF displays at 96 ppi - so it's what I send to be signed off.


                                                Next I explored if it was best to save a JPEG or open the PDF in photoshop.


                                                I can't use any other format because of the email campaign software.


                                                In my tests for what I needed I exported as JPEG, TIFF, PNG etc. from Acrobat


                                                And I compared these to directly opening the PDF in Photoshop and rasterising the PDF to 72 ppi.



                                                Turns out for what I needed was the PDF opened directly in Photoshop yielded better result that a variant of other exports and saves from different programs.




                                                More than one way to skin a JPG.

                                                • 21. Re: .pdf from InDesign huge!
                                                  zoom design Level 1

                                                  OK Guys,


                                                  1. I decided to make the logo a .png 24 (60k) because it did look sharper than the .jpg - I'm hoping I don't have any problem with that on mobile devices.

                                                  2. The entire pdf file size dropped from 4.4mb to 148k.

                                                  3. My priority for there files are quick viewing -- not perfect quality.

                                                  4. The reason I made it a pdf to begin with is because I layed it out in InDesign as printable menus and it is easy and a real time saver to use the same files, just save it as a small pdf -- but I do like those menus that are written into the code better, and i will do that, time permitting.


                                                  I thank you all for your help - case closed!


                                                  Have a good day.


                                                  Here is the site they are posted to again:



                                                  merci beaucoup!