1 2 Previous Next 44 Replies Latest reply on Jun 26, 2011 3:52 AM by Peter Spier

    JPEG placement in InDesign CS5

    fenris64

      All,

       

      I am creating an InDesign (CS5) document destined for screen only (iPad), and I have a series of same-sized images I will be flowing into the document - one per page.

       

      The Photoshop images are JPEGs (although I tried it with TIFFs too, just to see without success) at 732px x 1024px by 72dpi, and so should fill the iPad screen top to bottom and be a little narrower than the 768px width of the iPad, which is OK.  I then created an InDesign document at 732px x 1024px, thinking the images would flow in at 100%.  However, I'm finding the images place at about 50% or less, despite the Transform palette in ID telling the image is at 100%.  Its very peculiar.

       

      I've looked through ID's prefs to see if the document I am creating has a native resolution preset of, say, 96 or higher, but find nothing.

       

      Any idea why the same-sized Photoshop images and ID document do not match?

       

      Any advice appreciated.

       

      Thanks,

       

      /timothy

        • 1. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
          tman69 Level 3

          open one of your images in photoshop--go to image size--note the size in inches as a opposed to the pixel dimensions--check the box that says 'resample' image--try changing the resolution--or image dimensions--then note the difference in 'pixel' dimensions.

           

          pixel dimensions are relative to the device the image is being viewed with for example a high quality jpeg shot with a 10 megapixel camera is by default approximately 20 x 30 inches in size at 72ppi--but when viewed on the camera it fills the viewscreen--open same image in photoshop and it doesn't fill the screen---the relevant dimensions are image size in inches or centimeters--pixel dimensions change depending on the resolution of the device--so...if the ipad has a screen resolution of 732 x 1024--set your image size in inches (or cm) to the approximate size of an ipad screen--set your document size in Indesign to the same dimension--place image--it should now fit

          • 2. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
            Scott Falkner Level 5

            You want your images to import at 72 pixels per inch. You can scale them in InDesign  to get the same effective resolution, but that takes math and requires using the Links or Info panels to see effective resolution. It is not intuitive. Better would be to open each image in Photoshop and go to the Image > Image Size dialogue. Set Resample to None and  change the image resolution to 72 pixels per inch.

             

            Because JPEG is a lossy format, every time you open then save a JPEG image to cause permanent and irreversible damage to the quality of the image. Save as TIF or PSD instead. If you have the original source images before you saved as JPEG work with those instead. If the source images are higher resolution than you need then don’t bother to resample to the required pixel dimensions, since exporting from InDesign will take care of that.

            • 3. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
              Derek Cross Level 6

              If the document is for screen use only (web/tablets etc) you'll want your photographs to be low res JPG's. The pixel dimensions are the only important measurements (ppi are irrelevant).

              • 4. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                You should setting your ID document up at 768x1024. Anything else is likely to cause a problem if you're final destination is going to iPad using DPS.

                 

                As others have mentioned you will do better by using 72 ppi in Photoshop when creating these graphics.

                 

                Bob

                • 5. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                  Derek Cross Level 6

                  An image that is (say) 1024 px x 768 px at 100 per cent on a screen will appear identical in size whether it's 72 or 300 ppi. So if an image is for screen use only the ppi resolution is irrelevant.

                  • 6. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                    Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Except for that pesky file size!

                    • 7. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                      Derek Cross Level 6

                      File size is identical!

                      • 8. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                        John Hawkinson Level 5

                        Scott writes:

                         

                        Because JPEG is a lossy format, every time you open then save a JPEG image to cause permanent and irreversible damage to the quality of the image. Save as TIF or PSD instead. If you have the original source images before you saved as JPEG work with those instead. If the source images are higher resolution than you need then don’t bother to resample to the required pixel dimensions, since exporting from InDesign will take care of that.

                        Note that it's not every time. Good JPEG editors (such as Photoshop) make an effort to not recompress the data where they don't have to. Unless the actual image data changes, there are no downsides to multiple saves. So, for instance, if you open a JPEG image and change the physical dimensions, e.g. change a 1 inch by 1 inch at 144 ppi (144 x 144px) image into a 2"x2" at 72 ppi (still 144 x 144 px) image, re-saving as JPEG will cause no degredation.

                         

                        Additionally, as long as they are done on 8-pixel boundaries (the JPEG block size), translation and rotation operations also do not cause repeated JPEG compression rounds.

                         

                        Note, too, that it is possible to save TIFFs with JPEG compression. The same dangers apply. Though I don't know if the above exceptions apply -- anyone know?

                         


                         

                        DerekC1000 is certainly correct that the file size is governed by the pixel dimensions of the file, not by the ppi (pixel resolution). So if you hold the pixels constant and change the ppi, then the physical dimensions change (or vice versa). With no consequence to the file size.

                        • 9. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Really... a 300 ppi image is the same file size as a 72 ppi image with the same pixel dimensions...

                          • 10. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Except maybe for the embedded thumbnail it should be. Same data...

                            • 11. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                              Absotively!

                               

                              Had this discussion a while back somewhere and I wound up posting three different images with the same pixel dimensions but with different resolutions.

                               

                              Placed on web page all three looked identical and had identical file sizes.

                               

                              Bob

                              • 12. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                fenris64 Level 1

                                All,

                                 

                                Thank you for chiming in, often eloquently, with depth and detail.

                                 

                                However, I may very well not have phrased my query properly or with enough detail.

                                 

                                My photoshop image is 72 dpi and 732px by 1024px

                                My InDesign document is 732px by 1024px

                                 

                                When I place the JPEG in the ID document, it does not place at 732px by 1024px, although the Transform palette declares that image(box) to be at 100%.  It visually places at something like 40-50% of 732px by 1024px.

                                 

                                It could very well be that I am not understanding the responses above here, but something certainly seems amiss that a 100% size placement between two like-sized environments is not working.  Its possible that ID has an inherent dpi size difference assumption within it that would account for the JPEG placing smaller than anticipated (if the inherent ID dpi were, say, 96 or similar).  However, I doubt this as I think ID is dpi-independant.

                                 

                                ??

                                 

                                /timothy

                                • 14. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                  Did you set the document up as web intent with pixel dimensions? And again...let me warn you that 732 is likely to cause a problem for you down the road on the iPad.

                                   

                                  There is no good reason I can think of to do this at 732 pixels instead of 768.

                                   

                                  Bob

                                  • 15. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                    fenris64 Level 1

                                    Hmmm. I set up the document as a normal ID document.  I will investigate "web intent" to see what options that offers.

                                     

                                    To be clearer, I will be producing a PDF out of the ID document and then simply importing that PDF into iTunes for addition to the iPad (viewing through the Books app), so 732x1024 will be fine on the iPad with black screen on either side presenting to fill in the 36px shortfall.  It is a children's book I have scanned that meets those 732x1024 dimensions.

                                     

                                    /t

                                    • 16. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                      When you select with the selection tool (Black arrow) the scale percentages are ALWAYS shown at 100% becaue the frame is 100% of it's current size (which makes sense to somebody). If you want to know the scale of the CONTENT of the frame, you must use the direct select tool, or double-click the frame to select the content.

                                       

                                      Which raise the question of how you are making the frame when you place? Click and release (should give you 100%, but see below), click and drag, or predraw the frame?

                                       

                                      There was a bug, which may still exist, I think in CS4, that casued ID to scale certain images when placing by click and release that had particular image dimensions and (I think) were saved at 72 ppi (this last part may not be accurate). Also, if the the image is coming directly from the camera and has not been saved in an editor, ID sometimes has difficulty deciding what size and resolution to use.

                                      • 17. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                        Derek Cross Level 6

                                        Timothy – I assume you've tried, in InDesign, after placing it selecting the picture with the Selection Tool, then from the menu: Object > Fitting > Fit Content Proportionally?

                                         

                                        Derek

                                        • 18. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                          Ah...I see. I thought you were aiming at DPS output.

                                           

                                          For PDF you should indeed be just fine.

                                           

                                          Bob

                                          • 19. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                            fenris64 Level 1

                                            Starting with a blank page at 732x1024, I am hitting CMD-D to place and then navigating to the target image through the Finder navigation window.  This gives me a small representation of the JPEG at the cursor.  I place click at the 0,0 point in the document to place the image and it appears at the 40-50% size I expect.

                                             

                                            I tried also drawing a box on the blank page first that fills the page and the CMD-D to nav to the JPEG for placement.  The image shows up in the already-created box at the same 40-50% size.  Most peculiar.

                                            • 20. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                              fenris64 Level 1

                                              Yep, no effect.

                                              • 21. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                fenris64 Level 1

                                                Peter's response seems to have resolved the issue.

                                                 

                                                I double-clicked the 40-50% placed JPEG on the 732x1024 page. With the brown outline around the box I checked the transform palette to find the image was, indeed, at 50%.  Changing this value in Transform to 100% caused the image to jump to the expected size.  I then had to change to the selection tool (blue box border) and re-position and pull out the box to fill the page.

                                                 

                                                I guess the query here is why this doesn't happen as expected in the first place, and places at 50%.  Is there a pref in ID that I am over-looking?

                                                 

                                                Thank you all for your input and advice.  I have learned a few things and its been most helpful.

                                                 

                                                /timothy

                                                • 22. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                  Derek Cross Level 6

                                                  And to be clear (and go back to basics) you've drawn a rectangle on the page using the Rectangle Frame Tool, and the panel below the menu bar states W 768px and H 1024px?

                                                  • 23. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                    Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    Derek my apologies, I think we were talking about two different things, my bad for not reading the thread and your replies fully in the context they were meant.

                                                    • 24. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                      Derek Cross Level 6

                                                      No probs Eugene – but it's an intriguing issue!

                                                      Derek

                                                      • 25. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                        fenris64 Level 1

                                                        Hi Derek,

                                                         

                                                        Yes, this is the case.

                                                        And further, with no box yet created a simple CMD-D and placement of the JPEG simultaneously creates the box and places the image.  Both foregoing events place the image at 50%.

                                                        • 26. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                          Derek Cross Level 6

                                                          One final go!

                                                          In the Link Info panel what does it state about the Dimensions, Actual PPI and Effective PPI for the image?

                                                           

                                                          Derek

                                                          • 27. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                            fenris64 Level 1

                                                            Good catch Derek,

                                                             

                                                            In the Links panel it has Actual at 72dpi and Effective at 144dpi.

                                                             

                                                            What can I do to to equalize the effective to 72?

                                                             

                                                            /timothy

                                                            • 28. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                              Is autofit enabled?

                                                               

                                                              Bob

                                                              • 29. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                fenris64 Level 1

                                                                Well, no. I can check this ON on a box-by-box basis.  However, with 68 images to place this could get tedious, not to mention the manual resize of the affected boxes after checking the box on.

                                                                 

                                                                So far, the best choice seems to be double-clicking the too-small JPEG on the page, changing the x and y sizes from 50 to 100% and the type CMD-OPTION-C to fit the frame to the content.  Of course, I still have to do this 68 times...

                                                                • 30. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                  I can't duplicate this behavior at all. Can you post the InDesign file somewhere?

                                                                   

                                                                  It's possible you have something set somewhere but I'd need to see the file to figure it out.

                                                                   

                                                                  Bob

                                                                  • 31. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                    Derek Cross Level 6

                                                                    Hi Bob

                                                                    I've got to go now. I look forward to reading your analysis tomorrow!

                                                                    Derek

                                                                    • 32. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                      fenris64 Level 1

                                                                      Hi Bob,

                                                                       

                                                                      Happy to oblige:

                                                                       

                                                                      http://hellum.ca/compressed/JPEG_placement_sample.zip

                                                                       

                                                                      Thanks again,

                                                                       

                                                                      /timothy

                                                                      • 33. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                        BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                        Analysis of what? You need to post the file somewhere. If you tried to attach it that doesn't work.

                                                                         

                                                                        Bob

                                                                        • 34. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                          fenris64 Level 1

                                                                          Huh.

                                                                           

                                                                          I assumed that the link I placed in my last post would be "live".  It is for me, but I guess that doesn't mean it is for you...

                                                                           

                                                                          Not sure how to add an attachment to a BB post. Copy-paste of the link above should work in your browser if the link isn't "live" for you.

                                                                          • 35. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                            It looks to me like this is, indeed, that bug I mentioned rearing its ugly little head. Change the pixel dimensions by as little as 1 pixel and it comes in at 100%.

                                                                            • 36. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                              The best workaround I can offer is to create a frame first and have it set to autofit. Drag the image into it.

                                                                               

                                                                              If you're doing this on multiple pages you could do it with a master frame.

                                                                               

                                                                              Bob

                                                                              • 37. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                You could also change the resolution to 72.1 ppi which will make no appreciable difference in the file itself and should fix the issue.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Bob

                                                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                                                • 38. A different matter
                                                                                  Derek Cross Level 6

                                                                                  I've had my bath and just about to leave (It's 6.30pm here in the UK), but I had to check out the latest on this matter.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I've now looked at the graphic that Timothy supplied and have to comment that this title (Sam and the Firefly by PD Eastman) will be in copyright - have you permission to reproduce it? It's one of the very successful Beginner Book series and I'm sure Random House will protect their work!

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Derek

                                                                                  • 39. Re: JPEG placement in InDesign CS5
                                                                                    fenris64 Level 1

                                                                                    Thank you everyone for your kind and insightful information.  Bob's last two suggestions as well as Mr. Spiers' response seem to be the best workarounds.  I assume because this is a known bug that Adobe is aware of it.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    However, is there somewhere we can post bugs to Adobe products?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    kind regards,

                                                                                     

                                                                                    /timothy

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