27 Replies Latest reply on Jul 7, 2011 6:37 AM by Marco N.

    Adobe DNG Profile Editor

    Steve Kale Level 1

      Has there been any update to this beyond that in 2008 found on Adobe Labs? (I want to try using it to calibrate ACR for my camera with a shot of a MacBeth Color Chart.)

       

      To be more precise about this, I currently use ACR Calibrator to calibrate ACR for my Canon 1Ds II. I now see there is beta 3 of Adobe DNG Profile Editor but note that it utilises a small subset of the GMB Digital Colorchecker SG target chart.

       

      ACR Calibrator seems to produce quite different results from Adobe DNG Profile Editor.  I have followed the steps below when using the latter.

       

      Download DNG Profile Editor and drag to Applications
      Launch Photoshop and open the raw file of your macbeth target.
      In camera raw, place all settings to zero, curve to linear and turn off any sharpening etc. Click Save Image, choose dng as the file format and save it.
      Launch DNG Profile Editor.
      File / Open DNG File and choose the dng file you saved previously.
      Select the chart tab in DNG Profile Editor.
      Move the colored circles to the center of the matching colored corner square in your raw file
      Click Create Color Table.
      Choose File/Export <Camera> profile...  Give it a name and save.
      Exit DNG Profile Editor.
      Re-launch photoshop and open a raw file.  In Camera Raw, on the calibration tab, you should now see the profile you just saved.

        • 1. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
          Jeff Schewe Level 5

          Steve Kale wrote:

           

          ACR Calibrator seems to produce quite different results from Adobe DNG Profile Editor.

           

           

          Exactly what is "ACR Calibrator"?

          • 2. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            ACR Calibrator was written by Tom Fors with guidance from the late Bruce Fraser and predates the DNG Profile Editor by a few years.  I prefer the Tindemans script because it uses all of the 18 color patches of the classic GMB target instead of just the 3 RGB patches that Tom Fors' script does and Tindemens' script also is much more configurable.  Information on both variations of the script can be found here:

            http://www.21stcenturyshoebox.com/tools/acrcalibrator/

             

            I still use dual-illuminant profiles created by the DNG Profile Editor most of the time, though, along with a couple more single-illuminant DNG profiles for situations with fluorescent or similar lighting where the WB Tint value is significantly different than the normal 0 to 10 range.

             

            As far as using the GMB Color Checker SG, I would not use this for creating a profile with either the DNG Profile Editor or the Photoshop scripts, because of the non-matte texture where reflections can cause things to be off.  Using it with a standard lighting calibration workstation would be a little different, but I use my colorchecker out in the real world wehre reflections are more of a problem and the matte texture of the standard color checker is preferred.  I use the Color Checker Passport from X-Rite along wtih the X-Rite software and plug-in for Lightroom which is slightly more flexible than Adobe's because it allows the dual-illuminant colors to be anything, not the standard two in the DNG Profile Editor.

             

            If you want to see how well your color-checker-based profile are performing you can use the Color Check module of Imatest to compute the color error of each color patch.  Here are some color-error plots for various DNG Profile Editor and Photoshop Script computed adjustments.  There are two rows of photos, where the first row is 2700K specific and the second row is 6500K specific and you'll notice the DNG Profile Editor had the least color error for the 2700K lighting while the Tindemans' script starting with the ACR 4.4 profile had the smallest color error for the 6500K lighting.  These results are only for my camera and the beta color-profiles available back in 2008:

            http://www.pbase.com/ssprengel/_tech_adobecalibration/

            • 3. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
              Jeff Schewe Level 5

              ssprengel wrote:

               

              ACR Calibrator was written by Tom Fors with guidance from the late Bruce Fraser and predates the DNG Profile Editor by a few years.

               

              Actually, Tom's thing was named AcrCalibrator and as far as i know, the last version Tom wrote was v 1.2 for ACR 4.3.1. back in Jan 2008.

               

              ssprengel wrote:

               

              As far as using the GMB Color Checker SG, I would not use this for creating a profile with either the DNG Profile Editor or the Photoshop scripts, because of the non-matte texture where reflections can cause things to be off.

               

              According to the DNG Profile Editor guide, the ColorChecker SG isn't supported. The Passport target is I think as well as the standard ColorChecker in both large and small size. I would suggest the Passport target because it has some useful additions beyond just the standard color samples.

              • 4. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Is the SG target not supported because the RGB values are actually different from the Standard target or because of the additions colors surrounding the Standard target's colors or because of the non-matte finish?

                • 5. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                  Steve Kale Level 1

                  A guy by the name of Rags Gardner took Tomas's work a lot further.

                   

                  http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/ColorCalibration/

                   

                  It calibrates the black levels, contrast etc as well as the colour sliders (maybe the Adobe product does the same but I do not know)

                   

                  A notice posted by Tom Fors alerted people including me to the Adobe product.

                  • 6. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                    Steve Kale Level 1

                    The smaller target used by DNG Profile Editor is a subset of the larger Colorchecker DG chart, no?

                    • 7. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                      ssprengel wrote:

                       

                      Is the SG target not supported because the RGB values are actually different from the Standard target or because of the additions colors surrounding the Standard target's colors or because of the non-matte finish?

                       

                      This is what Eric Chan (who wrote the app and docs says:

                       

                      "Can the Chart Wizard be used with other charts such as the ColorChecker DC or ColorChecker SG?

                      No. PE currently only supports the 24-patch ColorChecker Chart.

                       

                      The ColorChecker SG contains a block of patches similar to the 24-patch ColorChecker Chart, but they have different spectral reflectance values and hence should not be used with PE."

                       

                      So the bottom line is the numbers won't match up...but I have used the Passport successfully.

                      • 8. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                        Marco N. Level 1

                        Jeff Schewe wrote:


                         

                        Actually, Tom's thing was named AcrCalibrator and as far as i know, the last version Tom wrote was v 1.2 for ACR 4.3.1. back in Jan 2008.

                         

                         

                        This script (as well as the others) still work perfectly with the current version of ACR

                        • 9. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                          Steve Kale Level 1

                          Hmmm.  Then I wonder to what extent Profile Editor does all that Rags's script does i.e blacks, contrast, brightness with a linear tone curve (adjusting to medium or custom to be an artistic choice) as well as all the items in the calibration tab. Anyone know?

                           

                          (I'll have to dig around to see if I have the more basic target.)

                          • 10. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            The DNG Profile Editor supports the matte-finish CC24 target, not the glossy Digital CCDC or semi-gloss CCSG targets (as named in the Rags-Gardner scripts). 

                             

                            When you say you see differences in the calibration between the DNG Profile Editor and the CCSG and using whatever script it is you use with the CCSG, do you mean by using your eyes, or can you give specific color-error numbers as computed by the Rags-Gardner read scripts?

                             

                            The differences you're seeing in calibration could just be due to using the DNG Profile Editor with the CCSG instead of the CC24 targets, right?  How do you know which one is better?

                             

                            Another question would be what profile are you starting with using either the DNG Profile Editor and the ACR Calibrator-type script?  Are you starting with Adobe Standard in both cases or are you computing the script calibration from the DNG Profile Editor-computed profile?

                            • 11. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                              ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              That's what I thought, but didn't have a way to measure them, myself.

                              • 12. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                Marco N. Level 1

                                Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                 

                                So the bottom line is the numbers won't match up...but I have used the Passport successfully.

                                 

                                By customizing the spectral data file, right?

                                • 13. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                  Steve Kale Level 1

                                  "The differences you're seeing in calibration could just be due to using the DNG Profile Editor with the CCSG instead of the CC24 targets, right?  How do you know which one is better?"

                                   

                                  Yes they could be (now that I understand the patches aren't the same.) I don't.  I'd like to understand if both products attempt to do all the same things.  See my questions above.

                                  • 14. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                    Steve Kale Level 1

                                    "Another question would be what profile are you starting with using either the DNG Profile Editor and the ACR Calibrator-type script?  Are you starting with Adobe Standard in both cases or are you computing the script calibration from the DNG Profile Editor-computed profile?"

                                     

                                    ACR Calibrator adjusts whichever is selected when you run it. I use Adobe Standard.  I don't know what DNG PE uses but I assume the same.

                                    • 15. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                      Marco N. wrote:

                                       

                                      Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                       

                                      So the bottom line is the numbers won't match up...but I have used the Passport successfully.

                                       

                                      By customizing the spectral data file, right?

                                       

                                      Nope...just shooting the Passport and using the DNG in PE. As far as I know the main Passport colors are the same as the standard ColorChecker...at least the Passport software can use either.

                                      • 16. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        The X-Rite Color Checker Passport is just a mini, hardshell version of the CC24 target--the same paint/dye with the same spectral response in both sizes.  The Passport is what I carry with me when I have color-calibrations to do.  If I was shooting a model from more of a distance I would use a larger CC24 but I am usually out in nature so I don't.

                                         

                                        The software that comes with the Passport duplicates the Color Checker profile creation function of the DNG Profile Editor in a slightly more flexible way, but it doesn't have the DNG Profile editor's ability to lock arbitrary colors the same way the DNG Profile Editor does, so it depends on what you're doing, which one is preferable.

                                        • 17. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          The DNG Profile Editor computes a calibration profile differential starting with a particular Camera Profile, too. 

                                           

                                          The DNG Profile Editor is adjusting one/two of the color matrices of an existing Adobe profile and the scripts are adjusting the another color matrix, so if you want things as close as possible FOR A PARTICULAR LIGHTING SITUATION then use the DNG Profile Editor to compute a color profile, then use your favorite script with your favorite target to tweak the DNG Profile Editor's calibration.

                                           

                                          To test how well the scripts are working you can use the Rags-Gardner Read scripts to compare things, but make sure you're looking at color-error numbers, not just the color-patches, themselves because the color-patch differences you see can be influenced by luminance differences which the scripts are not necessarily correcting for. 

                                           

                                          I prefer Imatest to check my color error because I get a total-color-error number, graphical readout of the differences by color-patch, a 3D view of the error which depending on the rotation lets me see the luminance errors, too, and also a color-checker photo to see the original, color-corrected, and luminance and color-corrected version of the target patches.

                                           

                                          The basic version of Imatest costs $100-ish but there is also a 30-day trial so you could try things out before deciding.  I'd wait until you have an actual CC24-compatible color-checker, though, so you're not wasting the 30-days waiting for it to be shipped.

                                          • 18. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                            Marco N. Level 1

                                            >Nope...just shooting the Passport and using the DNG in PE. As far as I know the main Passport colors are the same as the standard ColorChecker...at least the Passport software can use either.

                                             

                                            Sorry, I have understood that you have used CC SG with the ColorChecker Passport software.

                                             

                                            >The software that comes with the Passport duplicates the Color Checker profile creation function of the DNG Profile Editor in a slightly more flexible way, but it doesn't have the DNG Profile editor's ability to lock arbitrary colors the same way the DNG Profile Editor does, so it depends on what you're doing, which one is preferable.

                                             

                                            One of the big advantages of CCP compared to DNG PE, is that the CCP stresses the matrix before applying any LUT, lowering the probability of seeing those posterizations that you can see with the only LUT tweaking profiles by DNG PE.

                                             

                                            Yes, similar thing to CCP can be done starting from a only matrices profile using calibration scripts BEFORE using DNG PE but the method is not so immediate (and a little more time consuming).

                                             

                                            >Hmmm.  Then I wonder to what extent Profile Editor does all that Rags's script does i.e blacks, contrast, brightness with a linear tone curve (adjusting to medium or custom to be an artistic choice) as well as all the items in the calibration tab. Anyone know?

                                             

                                            IMHO DNG PE in any way should work like the scripts because it must compensate the saturation boost due to RGB tonal curve before calculate the hue and saturation samples correction.

                                            • 19. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                              Peter DL

                                              >>The DNG Profile Editor is adjusting one/two of the color matrices of an existing Adobe profile ...<<

                                               

                                              The Chart Wizard of DNG Profile Editor does not alter the given baseline matrix.
                                              It is applying Hue/Sat.-selective tweaks only.

                                               

                                              >> ...so if you want things as close as possible FOR A PARTICULAR LIGHTING SITUATION then use the DNG Profile Editor to compute a color profile, then use your favorite script with your favorite target to tweak the DNG Profile Editor's calibration.<<

                                               

                                              Or, the other way round:

                                              Pre-calibration of the matrix primaries within the respective tab of the DNG Profile Editor (manually done or entered based on the input of a suitable Script) can reduce the workload for the LUT resulting from the Chart Wizard.

                                              Eric once considered to automatize this first calibration step as well,
                                              and it may still be a good idea.

                                              Peter

                                              --

                                              • 20. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                RASouthworth Level 3

                                                I am confused (ok, not the first time).

                                                 

                                                I downloaded the latest version of DNGPE, ran it on a suitable target.  I left the base profile at the default for my camera, Adobe Standard. I then generated a single illuminant table via Chart and exported the resulting profile.  After creating the table the base profile in Chart now read "ColorChecker".  I seem to remember from the dim past that DNGPE Chart started with a base profile other than the listed ones, may be an incorrect memory.

                                                 

                                                I closed down DNGPE, brought it back up and loaded the same target dng, and the first thing I did was aim it at Camera Vivid for the base profile.  I then switched to Chart, created a table, and exported another profile.

                                                 

                                                Now I went into ACR, brought up the original .nef of the colorchecker, and applied in succession the two DNGPE created profiles, with significantly different visual results.  So here are my questions:

                                                 

                                                1. Does Chart indeed use the base profile chosen in the first tab, even though it always changes to ColorChecker?

                                                 

                                                2. Why does a different base profile make so much difference, i.e. why doesn't the LUT "force" the patches to very similar appearance?

                                                 

                                                Richard Southworth

                                                • 21. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                  Yammer Level 4

                                                  I noticed that the camera profile assigned to an image donates its tone curve to the resulting custom profile.

                                                   

                                                  For example, assigning Adobe Standard or Camera Standard to one of my ColorChecker images before running the chart wizard produces two different results, and this only seems to be the tone curve.

                                                  • 22. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                    deejjjaaaa Level 2

                                                    > the same paint/dye with the same spectral response in both sizes.

                                                     

                                                    some people say : not exactly  ->   http://www.rmimaging.com/information/ColorChecker_Passport_Technical_Report.pdf

                                                     

                                                    but the difference is certainly not meaningful for most of us, who do not measure every single patch of target w/ $xxxx spectrophotometer for before and after each profile creation

                                                    • 23. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      From the discussion in the PDF, it is not clear whether the differences shown are due to chart or instrument age, quality-control issues, or actual reformulations between the classic and the passport, so I'm a little skeptical that there are design differences vs instances differences.

                                                      • 24. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                        deejjjaaaa Level 2

                                                        author has a good reputation though in such matters...

                                                        • 25. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                          Marco N. Level 1

                                                          ssprengel wrote:

                                                           

                                                          From the discussion in the PDF, it is not clear whether the differences shown are due to chart or instrument age, quality-control issues, or actual reformulations between the classic and the passport, so I'm a little skeptical that there are design differences vs instances differences.

                                                          In these days I made a research searching for the best reference data to use with CC in camera profiling (with and without instruments). Comparing Myers data with official data I found a abnormal difference. Between the hypotheses I suspect an error in the measurement (I don't dispute the competence of the author). Do you know other SPECTRAL measurement of the CC Passport?

                                                           

                                                          Thank you

                                                          Marco

                                                          • 26. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            I don't know of any other references or CC Passport numbers other than what Google can come up with.  Babelcolor has some standard-deviation of spectrum numbers for a sampling of 20 charts done in 2006 and also some worst-color vs average-color visual comparisons to get an idea of how variable charts or at least their measurements can be.  Somewhere it says the me4asurements were done of the standard and also the minichart, mixed together, I assume.  I don't know if there is a list of the raw data or not.

                                                             

                                                            To understand the source of the variation you really need to see multiple measurements with the same instrument, with different instruments, and of different charts from different manufacturing runs and different ages and measured in different temperatures and humidities, otherwise it's not easy to say whether the variations we're seeing between the CC standard and the CC passport in the article are within the normal variations or not or if they represent a significant difference not explained by normal variations.

                                                            • 27. Re: Adobe DNG Profile Editor
                                                              Marco N. Level 1

                                                              ssprengel wrote:

                                                               

                                                              I don't know of any other references or CC Passport numbers other than what Google can come up with.  Babelcolor has some standard-deviation of spectrum numbers for a sampling of 20 charts done in 2006 and also some worst-color vs average-color visual comparisons to get an idea of how variable charts or at least their measurements can be.  Somewhere it says the me4asurements were done of the standard and also the minichart, mixed together, I assume.  I don't know if there is a list of the raw data or not.

                                                               

                                                              To understand the source of the variation you really need to see multiple measurements with the same instrument, with different instruments, and of different charts from different manufacturing runs and different ages and measured in different temperatures and humidities, otherwise it's not easy to say whether the variations we're seeing between the CC standard and the CC passport in the article are within the normal variations or not or if they represent a significant difference not explained by normal variations.

                                                               

                                                              Yes, I know the Babelcolor data and I have already included them in the study.

                                                              Obviously I do not have the opportunity to have the information to get an overview of the real things, but by analyzing various measurements I saw that Myers had to be the closest to official data of the CC Passport and instead is the more distant. Hence my doubts about the measurement.

                                                              Thanks anyway.

                                                               

                                                              Marco