26 Replies Latest reply: Jul 3, 2011 12:24 PM by trshaner RSS

    Lightroom 3 sRGB Export

    jghammell Community Member

      I have a workmate who supplies JPEGs from Lightroom 3, and has them set to export with the sRGB profile, (I have checked his settings) which is fine as we use them to create PDF files for online use. However, even though they are exported as sRGB they don't seem to have that information in the actual file - the Windows filer which reports the colour space shows nothing at all for that entry - yet if I load this fle into Photoshop and save it as sRGB from there it does have the sRGB profile listed in the filer information.

       

      The problem is there is a lot of files, and so it would be better if this information was there already, as once in Acrobat these Lightroom 3 JPEG files become dull and muted. (The PDFs created are sRGB colour space and other files from other packages show up correctly.)

       

      Is there something we can do to ensure that the sRGB export is recognised?

       

      Many thanks,

       

      John

        • 1. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
          CSS Simon Community Member

          I can confirm that when I export an sRGB jpeg from LR (3.4.1) it definitely contains an embedded sRGB profile.

          • 2. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
            ssprengel CommunityMVP

            Is Minimize Metadata also enabled on your colleague's Export, to remove camera-details and other things, where this perhaps also removes the colorspace information, although I'm not sure because I don't use this option.

             

            If you feel comfortable doing so, you might attach one of the JPGs in question to a forum message on this thread, or if they are too large, upload it to www.YouSendIt.com and post the download link, here, so others can look at the JPG to see if they agree it doesn't contain a color profile.

            • 3. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
              trshaner CommunityMVP

              'Minmize Metadata' in Export dialouge does NOT remove the color profile.

               

              jghammell said:  the Windows filer which reports the colour space shows nothing at all for that entry - yet if I load this fle into Photoshop and save it as sRGB from there it does have the sRGB profile listed in the filer information.

               

              What do you mean by 'Windows filer' and specifically where in this 'Windows filer' are you not seeing sRGB profile for these JPEG image files.

               

              What does Phototshop show for the embedded profile when you first open them and what do you mean by, "I load this fle into Photoshop and save it as sRGB?" You must "assign" profiles" in Photoshop by going to Edit>Assign Profile, before saving them.  If the file already has a profile, Photoshop will prompt you with "Changing the document profile can affect the appearance, etc." Photoshop is normally setup to prompt you when opening a file without an assigned profile and asks what you wantt to do - Assign one, Leave as is!

              • 4. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                ssprengel CommunityMVP

                The sRGB profile is in the file, and visible in Bridge and Photoshop or even when opening the JPG in a text editor like WordPad and searching for sRGB. 

                 

                It is just not visible to Windows Explorer / JPG-file / right-click / Properties / Details / Color Representation.  I think it's been this way for years, already. 

                 

                I'm guessing the OP wants LR's color-profile information be exported in the same way that Photoshop does, so Windows can show it in the file properties.

                • 5. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                  Geoff the kiwi CommunityMVP

                  ssprengel wrote:

                   

                   

                  I'm guessing the OP wants LR's color-profile information be exported in the same way that Photoshop does, so Windows can show it in the file properties.

                  Nope, I believe the issue is that exported files from LR look dull and flat in his PDF's. Sounds a lot like the jpegs aren't sRGB after all.

                  OP, if you can post one here for us to check that would be most useful, you can also PM one of us through our profile if you wish.

                  • 6. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                    jghammell Community Member

                    I think if the colour profile information was exported in the same way as Photoshop it would work, as the photos look OK until they get into InDesign or Acrobat - which are both set to sRGB as well ... they then look subdued and flat ... will get him to export a small example today and post that.

                     

                    many thanks for all the help.

                    • 7. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                      jghammell Community Member

                      This is the only difference I can see between files that work and files that don't - it may be the way I am importing them, but I am ensuring everything has the same colour space - from camera to final output, and JPEGs from Photoshop are OK, those from Lightroom's sRGB are not - they end up very subdued in terms of colour.

                       

                      I will get an export from LR3 today and make sure it is small - then post it here to double check.

                      • 8. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                        Geoff the kiwi CommunityMVP

                        Thanks..........

                        • 9. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                          jghammell Community Member

                          The Windows filer, right click on the file. Properties then details ... colour representation: See attached.Capture_00620.jpg

                           

                          I have tried leaving as is, but that results in the subdued images.

                           

                          I am saving out of Photoshop with the assigned profile sRGB as JPEG. If I don't than the images from Lightroom are like this:

                           

                          Capture_00621.jpg

                          • 10. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                            Geoff the kiwi CommunityMVP

                            That is strange!! So no colour space is seen from Lightroom???

                             

                            Most interested to see a file and it would be useful to see a screen shot of the export settings:

                            Picture 1.png

                            • 11. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                              ssprengel CommunityMVP

                              I see the same difference in Properties on my Windows 7 for between PS and LR exports for the last few years; however, the colorspace is in the file.  Bridge shows the sRGB colorspace in both PS and LR files.  If it wasn't then opening the LR file is PS and immediately resaving (w/o assigning a colorspace) wouldn't fix the issue.

                               

                              The fact Acrobat and InDesign are having problems isn't an indication that it's not in the file just that it's encoded differently. 

                               

                              I'm wondering if the two Adobe products in question have given colorspace rendering over to the GPU and OpenGL cannot read the colorspace information and perhaps viewing the PDF on another system wouldn't have the issue.

                               

                              Can the OP upload a PDF that demonstrates the issue, with a side-by-side of one LR and on PS version of the same image where the LR image looks dull and the PS image doesn't?

                              • 12. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                trshaner CommunityMVP

                                If you can post or email one of the files I can try it in Acrobat Pro 9 and InDesign CS5. Just give details as to how you are using the file to create the ID and PDF documents.

                                • 13. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                  jghammell Community Member

                                  Hi,

                                   

                                  Here are the two files requested as examples, one saved from Lightroom 3 as sRGB JPEG, the other saved from Photoshop CS5 as sRGB JPEG.  In the windows file information the colour standard seems to be blank, and in the other from Photoshop it shows as sRGB.

                                   

                                  If I use the Lightroom 3 version in InDesign the image seems to loose brightness / colour vibrance ... well, it looks dull in comparison. InDesign is using the sRGB colour space.

                                   

                                  Lightroom

                                  Lightroom sRGB.jpg

                                  Photoshop

                                   

                                  Photoshop sRGB.jpg

                                   

                                  Hopefully you can access these intact?

                                  • 14. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                    jghammell Community Member

                                    Export settings are here:

                                     

                                    settings.jpg

                                     

                                    Windows filer shows this:

                                     

                                    filer-info-lr.jpg

                                     

                                    Photoshop's sRGB info is different:

                                     

                                    filer-info-PS.jpg

                                    • 15. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                      ssprengel CommunityMVP

                                      Using EXIF Tool 8.09 to examine the headers of each file, the following tags refer to sRGB in each file:

                                       

                                      LIGHTROOM:

                                      Device Model                    : sRGB

                                      Profile Description             : sRGB IEC61966-2.1

                                      Device Model Desc               : IEC 61966-2.1 Default RGB colour space - sRGB

                                       

                                      PHOTOSHOP:

                                      Color Space                     : sRGB

                                      ICC Profile Name                : sRGB IEC61966-2.1

                                      Device Model                    : sRGB

                                      Profile Description             : sRGB IEC61966-2.1     

                                       

                                       

                                      I would guess that Windows and InDesign are looking for the Color Space and/or ICC Profile Name tags and LR only has the Profile Description tag which Photoshop and Bridge recognize. I see the same three items in recent LR exported files on my computer.

                                       

                                       

                                      I think I remember an Adobe insider answer a question about XMP-packet having information but EXIF not, that some EXIF tags are not filled in by LR because EXIF is considered old or even obsolete and this may be tripping up programs that have relied on only EXIF information rather than newer things.

                                       

                                       

                                      Here is the EXIFTool info in an ACR-saved JPG from 2008 which Windows does see the sRGB profile of, suggesting it is at least the Color Space tag that Windows looks for:

                                       

                                      Color Space                     : sRGB

                                      Interoperability Index          : R98 - DCF basic file (sRGB)

                                      • 16. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                        clvrmnky Community Member

                                        Much of EXIF is ad hoc, or applies only to one file format or the other. The key is knowing if these EXIF fields are part of any reasonable standard, and if they apply to JPEGs, and if those fields are intended to be interpreted by more than a few applications.

                                        • 17. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                          trshaner CommunityMVP

                                          I imported the two files into Lightroom and compared them in Photoshop. The LR exported version is less bright and the PS saved version has a yellow tint, and they look exactly like this in LR or PS. When "placed" into an InDesign document the two images look exactly as they do in PS or LR. Ditto for a PDF docuement.

                                           

                                          I do not experience the changes described in OPs original post using Acrobat Pro 9 and InDesign CS5.

                                          • 18. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                            Jao vdL CommunityMVP

                                            These two files are different in their actual data as tsraner noticed. They are both correctly sRGB and acrobat/indesign/etc. all correctly see that (you can check in indesign by right/control clicking on the image and selecting Graphics->Image color settings). Don't trust "windows filer" for anything. It appears there was something like an auto-levels done in the Photoshop one as the histogram is shifted completely to higher brightness. This is definitely NOT just a straight open and resave.

                                            • 19. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                              jghammell Community Member

                                              Hi,

                                               

                                              The examples were just picked because they had both been recently used, they were never identical in the first place. One was from an A3 Poster document, the other used in the A5 programme. All I was asked for was an "example" of a file saved out from LR3 and PS, to look at what profiles were in them ... I just renamed tham and attached them as I knew one had come out of LR while the other was saved from PS for a different document. What was done to them seemed irrlevant as it was the actual profile existance or recognition that was being asked about.

                                               

                                              Had this issue been on one PC I would have thought it was that PC, but this is a room full of PCs the content is coming from, and all of them show the same thing when dealing with files from LR3 set a sRGB ... when used in InDesign at sRGB for us they go dull ... it shows when printed - reds seem the most promenant colour but even they seem subdued, and the Windows info was the only difference I was able to see with them.

                                               

                                              Obviously it is something with our default setup ... we use Europe General Purpose 3 - RGB at sRGB which I thought would be OK ... no idea why this should happen.

                                              • 20. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                                jghammell Community Member

                                                To explain ... when I mentioned they show "when printed", I meant they show on screen, but even more so when printed.

                                                • 21. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                                  Jao vdL CommunityMVP

                                                  Let me assure you that lightroom does the right thing and writes correct sRGB files. It also does the color space conversion correct. Indesign and every other color managed application recognizes them correctly. What you are describing actually sounds like a very typical sign of a bad monitor profile. Lightroom is sensitive to those while other Adobe apps just ignore them completely. This can result in apparent color differences. If your monitor profile is good, you will NOT see any difference between Lightroom and other Adobe apps. So we need to know how you are calibrating those displays.

                                                   

                                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                                  • 22. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                                    jghammell Community Member

                                                    It is a school classroom, we can't afford to calibrate displays ... perhaps this is a more difficult thing than we expected, and can't be "fixed" for us in this situation. I expect we will leave as is and not bother you anymore.

                                                     

                                                    Many thanks for your help though.

                                                     

                                                    Best wishes.

                                                    • 23. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                                      trshaner CommunityMVP

                                                      Here are my color settings synchronzied with Adobe Bridge for all CS5 apps, and Acrobat 9 Pro color management settings. With these settings I see no change in apearance for either JPEG file when placed inside an InDesign CS5 or Acrobat 9 Pro PDF document. Obviously something's different with the color settings you are using.

                                                       

                                                      PS_CS5_ColorSet.jpg

                                                      Acrobat9_ColorSet.jpg

                                                      • 24. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                                        Keith_Reeder Community Member

                                                        This is free, easy, and much better than no calibration at all: http://www.calibrize.com/

                                                        • 25. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                                          Jao vdL CommunityMVP

                                                          You can't afford to calibrate but you can afford CS licenses? A calibrator

                                                          is a fraction of the cost (even academic) of those licenses. But no fear,

                                                          what you should do is go in the display properties on those windows machines

                                                          and go in the color management tab and delete any profile that is associated

                                                          with the monitor. This should fix the immediate problem. You won't get

                                                          correct color but you will no longer see any difference between Lightroom

                                                          and other programs. If you don't calibrate this is probably preferable. You

                                                          should also make sure to manually calibrate the display gamma (or contrast)

                                                          using one of the gamma charts here

                                                          http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#gammachart your monitors

                                                          should be gamma 2.2.

                                                           

                                                          Hope this helps.

                                                          • 26. Re: Lightroom 3 sRGB Export
                                                            trshaner CommunityMVP

                                                            In addition to the sites given, this is a good site for checking how well you have "calibrated" your monitor:

                                                             

                                                            http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php

                                                             

                                                            Pay particular attention to the 'Contrast,' 'Black Level' and 'White Saturation' tests. Without a hardware calibrator device it will be very difficult to establish the proper luminance level and color temperature, such as 100cd/m2 and 6,500 K. The Gamma setup link provided and these three tests will get you closer. For color temperature setting you can use the 'Gradient Banding' image at the above link. When color temperature is set close to the 5,500K - 6,500K, there should be a slightly "yellowish-brown" cast in the lighter areas of the gradient. It should also be uniform in color, not varying, and with no shades of red, green or blue. Even with a "trained color eye" you have a difficult time setting proper luminance level and color temperature tracking, because most monitors aren't uniform across their luminance output range (0% to 100%). A hardware calibrator can correct these non-uniformities and it helps you adjust your monitor's settings for the best results.

                                                             

                                                            This of course doesn't eliminate the possibility that one or more of your Creative Suite and Acrobat color settings is contributing to the problem.