14 Replies Latest reply on Aug 4, 2011 5:28 AM by GR_AU

    how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?

    AdobeDisappoint Level 1

      I would have thought this would be simple.  Just like I can crop a still image in Photoshop and save it with a new name (or the same name), I expected to be able to trim or split an .mov file in Premiere Elements 9 and save the resulting file(s) under a new name (or the same name) while preserving the same format.

       

      But SIX hours later, NO.

       

      Instead, after I split or trim the .mov file, it seems to be held hostage inside a project that won't let it go.  I even tried "exporting" it but the choices are different than the properties of the source file (a BAD thing), and the resulting two files from the export are unreadable on my computer (USELESS).

       

      The .mov file was shot with a Canon EOS Rebel T3i.  Windows with Vista.  Adobe Premiere Elements 9.  I also have Photoshop CS5 Extended and Lightroom 3.4.x, if either of those would help.

       

      I'm sure that I'm mistaken,  There MUST be a secret menu option to SAVE-the-trimmed-CLIP-as-a-SOURCE-file.

       

      How could there not be something this basic?

        • 1. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          The challenge is that an MOV is not one by any of dozens of possible video types (or codecs). So, yes, it's easy to output your video as an MOV --- but outputting it as the same MOV format you input is a bit more of a challenge. Especially since you don't know for sure what the specs are on your original video!

           

          See, unlike still photos, video must go through workflows. A workflow is the file format that the video editing software converts every video or photo into as it works with it. So you don't get the same file out as you put in (with few exceptions -- such as video from a miniDV camcorder). It's always a new file based on the old.

           

          As for how to output an MOV from your video project -- well, that depends on what you're going to use it for. Are you going to display it online? Use it in another project? A standard def or hi-def project? Output to a DVD or BluRay? Play it on Apple TV?

          • 2. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
            the_wine_snob Level 9

            For more background on file formats, which, as Steve says, are but "wrappers," see this ARTICLE.

             

            For more info on CODEC's, this ARTICLE will have some good background.

             

            Good luck, and hope that this helps,

             

            Hunt

            • 3. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

              One place to start might be to open the MOV from your camera in Quicktime Player and then press Ctrl+i.

               

              This will open the Movie Inspector, which often lists codecs and data rates for your audio and video.

               

              Knowing what type of video you're starting with might help us at least get started.

               

              And then knowing what device or software you're outputting your video to be played on would take us a long way toward a solution for your Share decisions.

              • 4. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                AdobeDisappoint Level 1

                I appreciate your willingness to help.  But I can see that you are each thinking in terms of "projects" and that Premiere Elements 9 is geared toward that thought process.

                 

                But, I'm not yet creating a PROJECT (at least not voluntarily).

                 

                So although I know my file type, and although it does NOT seem to be available for export, to me, that is beside the point.

                 

                All I have now, and all I want now, are SOURCE files.  But they take up a lot of room, and some could easily be trimmed of stuff that will never be used even when I do begin an official project - that is if I could find a reasonable way to do so.

                 

                Apparently, judging from what I'm hearing about the extreme limitations of the program, I can't just trim these files and end up with smaller SOURCE files of the exact same type.  So I'm toasted before I've begun really.  The only way to curb the amount of space they're taking is to dumb them down into something else which may limit repurposing them in the future, when I actually WANT to create an official project.

                 

                I'm absolutely stunned to discover this.  Never in my worst nightmares would I have thought that THIS would be the sticking point in my new efforts...

                • 5. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  For just trimming MOV files, I would look into Apple's QuickTime Player Pro (US $ 29 upgrade/unlock from the free version). I think that it will do all that you need.

                   

                  Good luck,

                   

                  Hunt

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                    Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                    You're easily stunned, AD.

                     

                    This is simply the difference between how video and how photos are edited.

                     

                    Photos are edited like word documents. You cut out what you don't want and just resave them.

                     

                    With video, you create a project, add the video and then output some form as video as your final product. This is not a deficiency in the product. It's the nature of the beast.

                     

                    Because of the way video works, it is not possible for it to fit the photo file paradigm. Photos exist in two dimensions. Video includes the dimensions of length, breadth and TIME.They are completely different types of files with completely different workflows.

                     

                    We can, of course, show you how  to create trimmed versions of your videos, if you'd like. Although it sounds as if you've already admitted defeat.

                    • 7. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                      AdobeDisappoint Level 1

                      Bill,


                      Thanks   I'll go read up on it and see if it might help.  Much appreciated.


                      Steve,


                      LOL, well, I may seem easily stunned, but I'm not exactly Julian Barbour, calling for the end of time.  I'm happy with time, as it pertains to video.  But stunned that Premiere can't do a simple (seems to me) save function on a file just because the dimension of time has been adjusted at one end or the other.  I mean, Premiere recognizes my format, understands my format, allows me to edit a file in my format, and can transform to a different (unwanted in my case) format.  But it can't follow up all that work with a save to that same format it was just working with???


                      To me, that's a bad thing (and stun-worthy).


                      It seems that since Premiere knows and understands the format of my file, it should not only be able to let me "trim" or "clip" some away, at least from one end or the other, but knowing how many frames (and how much TIME) it clipped, it should then be able to save it back to the same format, but without the clipped off portion.


                      FWIW, I've shot everything so far as:
                         - DSLR
                         - 1080p30
                         - 29.97 frames per second
                         - 16:9 progressive HD
                         - square pixels (1920x1080)


                      And as just one example of what I want to clip, I wandered around doing an experiment a few days ago, practicing video for the first time.  The huge file I ended up with (never again, I promise), is a gazillion gigs, naturally, and that would have been fine because I planned on deleting everything anyway once I'd watched it, BUT... it turns out there is a fantastic bit at the end that I know I'll want to use.  Just a few seconds out of a huge file, but it is special and I don't want to lose it, but the rest of the file is burning space man.


                      ------------


                      As for your offer to teach me to trim.  I found both trimming and splitting to be easy as pie, but I'm still looking for the SAVE-the-newly-trimmed-file-as-a-SOURCE-file-under-a-different-name button.  And I still believe it should be possible, even if it isn't.

                       

                      And no point in trimming (and taking up more space with a faux "project") if I can't then save the file as a source file awaiting that banner day in the future when I actually want to create a real project.  (So I figured out in explorer which files related to that particular "project," and deleted the faux project - BY HAND - because they seem to have forgotten to add a "delete-the-faux-project" button, along with not giving us a "save-the-trimmed-file-as-source" button.)

                       

                      I do have another real project that I've started, and it is still in good shape at this point, unharmed by my shenanigans, FWIW.  But that effort isn't the subject of this thread, except to the extent that I'd like to be able to slim down those source files and save them for future repurposing without the bad moments.  Maybe they don't want us to be able to slim our own stuff down and keep it as source when they're up-selling space on a satellite or server somewhere.  Space I won't be renting under any foreseeable circumstance, ever.

                      • 8. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                        Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                        I'll say it once more: It's impossible to cut a piece of video and then resave your file, as you can do with photos and word documents. And it's not a deficiency in Premiere Elements. IT'S THE NATURE OF EDITING VIDEO WITH EVERY VIDEO EDITING SOFTWARE IN THE WORLD.

                         

                        This is because, when you edit photos or word documents, you are editing the original photo or word file.

                         

                        When you're editing video, however, you are working on a PROJECT. (Notice that you don't select Open to edit your video. You select Get Media or Import.) The video is an element in the project. You are not editing the original video. That's not possible to do. You put the video INTO a project. Which means, once you've edited this project, you must export your new video out of it.

                         

                        Please tell me you understand that, or else we've gone as far as we can with this discussion and there's nothing more we can do to help you.

                         

                        It is impossible to open a video file and edit it. You must bring the video into a project, edit the project and output a new video from it based on your imported media and your edit decisions.

                         

                        BTW, the specs you gave us for your video aren't adequate. They aren't telling us about the codec -- which is what we really need to know.

                         

                        In an earlier post I told you how to open the video in Quicktime and learn the codec.

                        • 9. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                          Let's take a quick look at what most people have with AVCHD (and most other HD Video material today). First, it is compressed, and created onto the media (usually some form of flash memory) in GOP, Group of Pictures - see this ARTICLE), to occupy less space. Think of this as shooting a still image and Saving it as a JPEG file, but with one difference - the GOP structure.

                           

                          While we're still on the Still Image analogy, we will look at editing that JPEG in Photoshop - a common operatoin. Remember, that JPEG is compressed to allow for storage. The concept of JPEG compression is that certain data can be removed from the image, and the average human eye will never know the difference. In general, this works pretty well. However, to edit the Image, PS must extract every bit of the remaining data, and display it. This is why if you Open a 70KB JPEG in PS, the Image size will swell to 900KB in PS. The JPEG has been un-compressed. We edit that Image, but what do we do, when we Save it? Do we recompress it, yet again, knowing that subsequent JPEG compressions will strip more data from the file, and over generations will be noticable? If we want to maintain the utmost quality at this point, we choose PSD, or TIFF, so as to NOT recompress the Image again. However, the file that we have just Saved to, will be larger, as the remaining data is not being recompressed.

                           

                          We now go to Video. Instead of JPEG compression, we have H.264, a CODEC, that also compresses the data, throwing out much of it. Like JPEG, the idea is that in this initial compression, the average human eye will not detect that loss of data. We are still faced with the GOP structure, where we have on I-Frame, maybe as far apart as 18 Frames (more than 0.50 sec. at 29.97 FPS), and only Difference Frames in between those. If we were to edit in purely GOP, and happened to cut in the area with Difference Frames, Cutting out the I-Frame that they reference, we would have nothing of visual use. Those Difference Frames need their I-Frame to fill in most of the information. The NLE (Non Linear Editor) program gets around this limitation, and most do it the same general way - they create a proxy file, with ALL I-Frames, so that one can do Frame-specific editing, and there are no Difference Frames to deal with. Each of those I-Frames makes the file much larger, than what we had in the GOP structure.

                           

                          Different NLE's do this in diverging manners. Final Cut Pro (and other Apple NLE's) create a physical proxy file, using an Intermediate CODEC, and it is those physical files, that are edited. If PrE (or PrPro) can natively edit the file, and they can with current versions and AVCHD, the proxy files exist only within the program, and we never really see them as files, because they are just mathematical renderings for display. We are actually editing in XML language, and nothing is different, until we Export/Share that Project. For more details, see this ARTICLE. It is not until we do an Export/Share, that there is a new, physical Video file. That XML language is read and acted upon. It tells the program exactly what data needs to come from the original Source File, and how to process it, when the new, edited file is produced. It is not until that point, that anything physical comes from the Project, and why the Project is important in PrE's parlance. We cannot play a Project file (PREL), as there is no Video file to "play." We can only use that PREL in PrE, where we are presented with a proxy file to actually play. That is why we Export/Share - to create a new, unique Video file.

                           

                          Now, we'll go to the Export/Share, which is about the Save in PS (but different than Save, Save_As, or Save_As_a_Copy in PrE, which is ONLY about the PrE Project file - the PREL). Do we recompress that initially compressed Video? If we wish to use the resultant file for future editing, my answer would be NO! Instead, I would Export/Share to an intermediate, I-Frame, non-GOP format. I like Lagarith Lossless, or UT Lossless CODEC's for this, as they are "lossless," unlike the original AVCHD, the vast majority of MPEG flavors, including all flavors of H.264, but the file sizes WILL be larger, just like the PSD, or TIFF, with our Still Images. Both of those CODEC's are great and FREE!

                           

                          If one is serious about video editing, then the need for HDD real estate is necessary. For quality, then large files are a fact of life.

                           

                          As a side-note, there are some NLE's, that do what is often referred to as "smart rendering." This can be useful, for doing what you are - just Trimming. QT Pro does this with certain media, like MOV files (many CODEC's), and will allow one to Save a Trimmed file, in pretty much the same exact format, used to edit. However, there are some limitations. The conversion of a Difference Frame into an I-Frame can go off, though usually it goes pretty well.

                           

                          Hope that this sheds some light on how Still Image editing is similar to video editing, especially with regard to compressed, GOP file formats.

                           

                          Good luck,

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                            AdobeDisappoint Level 1

                             

                            ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *** ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

                             

                             

                            Quoting Steve:


                            "I'll say it once more: It's impossible to cut a piece of video and then resave your file.....[because] IT'S [against] THE NATURE OF EDITING VIDEO WITH EVERY VIDEO EDITING SOFTWARE IN THE WORLD."

                             

                            ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *** ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

                             

                            I'm very pleased to say that I've found out how to do exactly what I wanted to do, despite Steve's strongly stated opinion that it is "impossible."


                            I can:

                             

                            ..... trim or split a video

                             

                            ..... and save it under the same name or a different name(s)

                             

                            ..... WITHOUT converting it to something else before or after trimming

                             

                            ..... WITHOUT changing it from its original format

                             

                            ..... WITHOUT exporting (compressing) it

                             

                            ..... WITHOUT "rendering" it different in any way except my desired length change (and resulting smaller file size)

                             

                            This is desireable to me in order to:

                             

                            ..... save many gigs of space on my terabyte drives

                             

                            ..... while retaining source file footage that may be useful in future projects

                             

                            ..... IN ITS ORIGINAL (source) FORMAT !!!!!

                             

                            YAY!!!

                             

                            I got thinking about the software that came with my camera.  I didn't install it because it included things like a program to handle RAW images (and I prefer to use Adobe Lightroom 3) and a program that I thought might be similar to Bridge (and I really like Adobe Bridge).

                             

                            But I decided to install it and see if there was anything there that would allow me to work with the videos and sure enough, there it was - the ability to trim my videos of the junk while keeping the rest in original perfect format, just as it was shot. From a user's point of view, it is a precise video version of cropping a still image in Photoshop.  EXACTLY what I wanted to do!!!

                             

                            Here is a collage of the properties box of the "before" version (the original original), collaged together with the  properties box of the "after" version (the trimmed original).  The properties boxes are the properties as reported by Adobe Premiere Elements 9.

                             

                            AD_props.jpg

                             

                            In the above-shown collage of the screenshots that I've made for you, you can see that nothing has changed in terms of the properties.  The only changes are the length (because I cut it), the file size (because it is MUCH smaller now), and the name (because I wanted to preserve the original file in order to make a screenshot of its properties for you). I WANT TO REPEAT - the new CUT file is identical to the original, except the unwanted portion has been cropped away. It was NOT compressed, it was NOT rendered, it was NOT exported.  It is a true source file utilizing original footage in its original format.

                             

                            (This forum limits images to 450 pix wide so to see that all the relevant format properties are the same in both properties boxes, you may have to increase the size through your browser by holding down the [Ctrl] and hitting the "=" key (the one with the "+" above the "=" sign).)

                             

                            ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *** ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

                             

                            Here are the steps I took to make the screenshot above:

                             

                            1 - Opened the original file in Canon ZoomBrowser EX 6.7 (which came with the camera).

                             

                            2 - Trimmed ("cut") the file by placing a start point and stop point around the desirable footage.

                             

                            3 - Saved under a different file name.  (NOTE:  This was a true save, NOT an export, NOT a "render" of some sort.)

                             

                            4 - Switched to Adobe Premiere Elements 9 and started a new "project."

                             

                            5 - Used "Get Media" to pull the original version and the cut version of the video into the project.  NOTE:  I pulled the cut version in first, so if there had been a format mismatch (as compared with the DSLR-1080p30 @29.97 setting I normally use when creating a new project), Premiere would have said so.  But there was NOT a format mismatch.  And it runs perfectly, just as it did before, including audio.

                             

                            6 - Right clicked each video and took a screenshot of the properties of each to show you.

                             

                            And this means I can use the trimmed footage for any purpose down the road, yet I didn't have to save the entire file which included unwanted footage.  And I've saved a considerable amount of space on one of my terabyte drives.

                             

                            SUMMARY:


                            Easy as pie:


                            I trimmed the excess off a video WITHOUT "converting," "exporting," "compressing," "rendering" or changing the format away from the original in any way.


                            No loss of any type of data whether audio or visual or "other."  (Except, of course, the unwanted footage.)

                            • 11. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                              Glad you found a solution that makes you happy.

                              • 12. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                                AdobeDisappoint Level 1

                                Just to clarify for any other video makers who wish they could do this, but might worry that I've lost frames, etc., using the solution I found above, I want you to know that I've checked all my cut files and each of them plays with the correct number of seconds, and the correct number of frames per second, when brought into Premiere Elements 9.

                                 

                                For example - let's say I had an original file straight off my camera that was 59 seconds long.  Premiere would measure that not only by hours and minutes and seconds, but also by frames (in my case, 30 frames each second).  You can watch the frames count forward by two using the controls in the Monitor portion of Premiere.  Or you can step the frames forward one at a time using the arrow keys on your keyboard instead.  The format is:

                                 

                                ........    hours;minutes;seconds;frames (00;00;00;00)

                                 

                                So although the cut I made in the *other* software (Canon ZoomBrowser to the rescue!!!!!) was "high-speed" (only specific to the second but NOT down to the frame), once I picked the second to start on and the second to end on and saved it, I was rewarded with a clip that contained the correct number of frames for those seconds, just like in the original.  So if I selected the start portion of my cut to be at the :31 second mark in ZoomBrowser, and placed the end marker of the cut at the :35 second mark, and saved it, the clip I end up with is 5 seconds long and correctly shows all 150 frames available and playable in Premiere when I  choose to play it there.  Same quality, same format, the real deal.

                                 

                                ~ ~ ~ *** ~ ~ ~

                                 

                                I've only spent a short time clipping my existing original footage (I'm new at this, plus I'm busy with other things today); nevertheless, so far I've reclaimed just over 15 gigabytes of space.

                                 

                                An additional bonus is that I won't have to play through anywhere near as much footage in the future when I want to find bits to use in future projects.  So I'll save massive amounts of time by taking a moment to trim things now.

                                 

                                Sweet

                                .

                                • 13. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                                  GR_AU Level 1

                                  Hi, you can also do this (trim a portion of clip at the begining/end or middle) with quicktime, just set yr in/out point in quicktime then edit?cut/trim/delete then save to a new name. I have trimed the new file again and again under 10 generations to conform there is no loss in quality as there is no export/recompression going on you just save a who lot of space.

                                  • 14. Re: how can I save .mov file as another .mov file after trim from Pre9?
                                    GR_AU Level 1

                                    Also, trimming a project in premiere DOES trim source clips WITHOUT recompression with the amount of handles (frames) you set but it does this ONLY with REAL video clips that have REAL frames not compressed video H.264 which results in a trimmed project without really triming the source media to save space so trimming in premiere is not really valid for H.264, just re output yr trimmied sequences into a new format thats the only way then trash original project and all its media.