7 Replies Latest reply: Jul 22, 2011 9:23 AM by Peter Spier RSS

    OpenType ornaments

    absqua Community Member

      I should start by saying that I don't understand OpenType features very well. I'm using CS5 on a Mac.

       

      I have a bullet (0x2022) character (that looks like an arrow) that uses an OpenType ornament.

       

      Picture 3.PNG

       

      The tooltip on the glyph in the glyphs palette says:

       

      GID: 581

      Unicode: 2022

      Ornaments,4 (ornm)

      Name: BULLET

       

      Curiously, the ornament doesn't show as an override in the paragraph  styles palette, but clearing overrides will remove the ornament and take  it back to a normal bullet character. If there is another override  on the character, the paragraph styles palette tooltip will show that  override and "OpenType Feature: " (with nothing following the colon).

       

      I can see nothing in the character palette flyout=>OpenType menu  that would allow me to set the ornament. Is there a way to apply the  ornament without pulling it out of the glyphs palette?

       

      And, more generally, can anybody elucidate how OpenType ornaments interact with paragraph and character styles and overrides? It seems confused.

       

      Thanks,

      Jeff

        • 1. Re: OpenType ornaments
          John Hawkinson Community Member

          Hi, Jeff.

           

          This is certainly confusing, I think there's at least one bug here.

          I don't have Ideal Sans, but I've replicated similar behavior with Minion Pro, for the GID 1255 U+2022 Ornaments,4 ornament.

           

          You can see what is really going on here by exporting a snippet:

          <ParagraphStyleRange AppliedParagraphStyle="ParagraphStyle/$ID/NormalParagraphStyle">
            <CharacterStyleRange AppliedCharacterStyle="CharacterStyle/$ID/[No character style]">
              <Content>xxx
              </Content>
            </CharacterStyleRange>
            <CharacterStyleRange AppliedCharacterStyle="CharacterStyle/$ID/[No character style]">
              <Properties>
                <OpenTypeFeatures type="list">
                  <ListItem type="list">
                    <ListItem type="string">$ID/ornm
                    </ListItem>
                    <ListItem type="long">4
                    </ListItem>
                  </ListItem>
                </OpenTypeFeatures>
              </Properties>
              <Content>•
              </Content>
            </CharacterStyleRange>
          

           

          I preceded the bullet with "xxx".

           

          As one should expect, this has nothing to do with Paragraph Styles. I think when you reset the paragraph style overrides you are resetting the characters back to their defaults, just as would happen if you had character attributes like italics or boldface. It's not really a paragraph style.

           

          But they ought to show up as character overrides, and they do not.

           

          So, you could probably apply the ornament both by cutting and pasting, by dragging from the Gyphs panel, and by placing snippets.

           

          What were you hoping for?

           

          I'm not sure the bug is anything more than "Opentype ornament features are not clearly displayed in Overrides tooltips." Maybe it is also "No support for manipulating Opentype ornament features in Character panel flyout menu"? Yeah, I guess that's true.

          • 2. Re: OpenType ornaments
            absqua Community Member

            Thanks for looking at it John.

            My original hope was that I could make the ornament part of a character style that I could apply via a grep style. That does not seem possible.

            However as I looked further into it I became confused not only by InDesign's behavior here with regards to overrides, but by the nature of these ornaments and other OpenType alternate glyphs. It seems that most character styling is achieved by manipulating some aspect (size, color, baseline, etc.) of the character's glyph or by using an equivalent glyph from a different font (bold, italic, etc.). This however substitutes a different glyph from the same font. I'm used to thinking there is a one-to-one relationship between the character and the glyph—that, for a given font, the glyph is the character—but this is clearly wrong.

            I suppose it's really no different than small caps. (Though small caps can be applied straightforwardly and can be incorporated into a style—so I wonder if there isn't some important difference.)

            Anyway, I'll file a bug. Thanks again!

            • 3. Re: OpenType ornaments
              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

              I haven't been following this closely, but I wondered if this could be the rsult of picking an alternate character in the bullets and numbering dialog?

              • 4. Re: OpenType ornaments
                absqua Community Member

                No, it doesn't seem so. Applying bullets & numbering (using the arrow glyph bullet) to the paragraph will give you the ornamented glyph for the automatic bullet characters, but typing a bullet still gives you the normal •.

                • 5. Re: OpenType ornaments
                  Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                  absqua wrote:

                   

                  No, it doesn't seem so. Applying bullets & numbering (using the arrow glyph bullet) to the paragraph will give you the ornamented glyph for the automatic bullet characters, but typing a bullet still gives you the normal •.

                  Which is precisely why I think the special glyph is selected in the bullet dialog in the style defintion.

                  • 6. Re: OpenType ornaments
                    John Hawkinson Community Member

                    I'm prety sure it has nothing to do with bullets and numbering, Peter.

                    With a vanilla plain document with no spceial styles and thus only

                    the default Bullets and Numbering setup, none of the special

                    U+2022 glyphs appear in the bullet character list except the regular

                    plain ordinary U+2022 non-variant black centered circle.

                     

                    But inserting the ornament alternate U+2022 glyphs via the Glyphs

                    panel gives the anomalous beavior where it seems like there are

                    character overrides but you cannot manipulate them in the UI.

                     

                    Try it!

                    • 7. Re: OpenType ornaments
                      Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                      I believe you. I've got a couple of other more pressing things to try at the moment.