27 Replies Latest reply on Jul 29, 2011 12:03 PM by Brian2025

    Consistently Crashing

    Brian2025 Level 1

      New to ID and just got done going through the training. I am building a template and getting my workflow down. ID has been running solid on the computer for 4 days 24/7 without a problem.

       

      However, it just started crashing all of a sudden. First it was every minute or so. Now, when I open the recovered document, it will crash as soon as I cut some text.

       

      I rebooted the computer, but that doesn't help. It seemed to start happending after importing Illustrator pictures and .EPS files. I suppose the next step is to contact Adobe, but wanted to try here first. This is pretty crazy, I finally know what I am doing and need to get the project done, but now ID won't let me.

        • 1. Re: Consistently Crashing
          Grant H Level 4

          details:

           

          system
          OPS

          ID version...

           

          etc

          • 2. Re: Consistently Crashing
            Brian2025 Level 1

            Windows 7, 64 bit (8GB mem)

            CS5, 7.0.4

             

            Not sure what other parameters are useful though.

             

            I opened a few other simple documents and they are working fine (at least for a few mintues). For the offending document, I can move around, insert text, etc. without a problem. As soon as I try to cut text it is a guaranteed crash. Not sure if that help.s

            • 3. Re: Consistently Crashing
              Grant H Level 4
              For the offending document, I can move around, insert text, etc. without a problem. As soon as I try to cut text it is a guaranteed crash:

              export the offending doc to idml then open that and try again.. save as different filename.

               

              G

              • 4. Re: Consistently Crashing
                Brian2025 Level 1

                No luck, but worth a shot I guess. Very strange. I am waiting for tech support so I will see what happens.

                 

                I am wondering how professionals can use the tool if does this. I have been gradually adding elements to the document, but it is still pretty simple. Maybe it is an isolated incident or I am doing something really dumb.

                • 5. Re: Consistently Crashing
                  Grant H Level 4

                  what happens if you select the textframe (or all the text) and change the font. then cut...

                   

                  g

                  • 6. Re: Consistently Crashing
                    Brian2025 Level 1

                    Same symptoms.

                     

                    I tried changing all the text to a different font as well as changing it all to the default paragraph style.

                    • 7. Re: Consistently Crashing
                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                      Do you have any 3rd party plugins installed?

                       

                      Normally the first thing I'd tell you to do is look at the crash report, or make it available. But in Windows 7, I guess Windows doesn't save stack traces by default, or nobody around here knows how to find them. I guess you could be very brave and mess around under the hood and figure it out. Otherwise, well, it's all guesswork.

                      • 8. Re: Consistently Crashing
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Do you run Suitcase?

                         

                        These symptoms are also pretty common with a bad font (though those are not nearly as common on Windows as Mac). EPS is also known to be a likley source of trouble for many documents.

                         

                        If you are not running Suitcase, you can move half the pages into one new document, then the other half into another. Can you make either of the new files work correctly? If half works and the other doesn't (you can also, and maybe should, do this by making a copy of your  file and deleting half the pages, and any text that is on those pages in threaded stories that are in both halves), break the half that doesn't work in half again. Repeat until you isolate a page or pages that are causing the problem, then do the same divide and conquer procedure on the objects on the page.

                         

                        If running Suitcase, disable the ID plugins.

                        • 9. Re: Consistently Crashing
                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                          Oh, is it specific to a particular document? I didn't pick up on that, but if so, then definitely trying to narrow/isolate is the way to go!

                          • 10. Re: Consistently Crashing
                            Brian2025 Level 1

                            Yes, specific to a single file. I don't have any plugins or suitcase.

                             

                            Was on the phone for 2 hours with tech support and they "kinda" have a solution. They said to go to window/utilities/scripts/samples/vbscript/split story. His belief was that it had something to do with the text threading.

                             

                            That being said, there may be a chance that I mucked something up while creating the template since I am a newbie. A few possible things?

                             

                            - I imported the word document using the shift option so that it created all pages for me. But then as I was messing around, I had to add a page. I drew a new text frame the size of the page and then threaded the out port to it. Seems correct.

                             

                            - I added a graphic in-line with the text by having the text tool selected and then CNTRL-D. I then wrapped the text around the graphic. What was really odd about this was that the wrapping would not work unless I changed the paragraph stytle to "[Basic Paragraph]". This does not seem right and may have messed things up?

                             

                            - Lastly, I imported equations from MathType that use the symbol font. I have been playing around with MathType and the fonts a lot, so maybe something there was bad. But that was done early in the creation and I did not seem to have a problem. The problem occurred nearly after the previous two listed items.

                             

                            Thanks for the help. This is pretty scary to think it is this fragile, but I am trying to get to the root cause and avoid it again.

                            • 11. Re: Consistently Crashing
                              Grant H Level 4

                              i think you have a symbol somewhere in your mathType equations that ID cant copy...

                               

                              G

                              • 12. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                John Hawkinson Level 5

                                Yeah, all of those things sounds like they could be trouble. MathType may not be a plugin, but it's definitely an external potential problem, and as Jongware will remind us, Word import seems to have gotten flakier since CS3.

                                 

                                It sounds like you have one entire continuous story. I would export the story to InDesign Tagged Text, then place it on a new layout, and see if it solved the problem. If so, great. If not, cut the story in half in an external editor (Notepad or Textedit), then try again, repeating until you narrow it down. At least, this assumes the problem is odd formatting in the story.

                                 

                                I'm not sure why the Split Story script would be helpful. But whatever floats their boat, I guess...

                                • 13. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                  Brian2025 Level 1

                                  As far as the Adobe tech support goes, I think they just shoot darts and apply standard processes. Most tech support guys don't really think about the problem and listen to the symptoms. I pushed them for what was really going on and they admitted they didn't really know. I said what good is that if I don't know how to prevent it.

                                   

                                  ****GOOD NEWS**** I am pretty sure I found the problem, with your guys suggestions. After deleting all .EPS equation imports, everything ran fine. I also noticed it opens instantly. Before it would show the "thinking" cursor for a few seconds.... an indication there is a problem.

                                   

                                  Now, the bigger problem is what to do with all of these equations. I will have to come up with a new workflow that might work. The problem is that I painstakingly chose the MathType fonts, settings, etc. and its REAL frustrating that its not working. I even switched to the MathType factor settings and that gives me the same problem! Is there any idea to better understand why the .EPS is giving this issue?

                                  • 14. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                    John Hawkinson Level 5

                                    I spent awhile nagging my WIndows people again and they suggest, consistent with the advice on the Internet, that you can indeed copy DRWTSN32.EXE to your Windows7 machine and then get it to write a stack trace that you can look at to understand why InDesign is crashing. cf. http://www.vistax64.com/vista-general/107583-dr-watson-i-need-send-drwtsn32-log-my-enginee rs.html etc.

                                     

                                    But anyhow, you say:

                                     

                                    Now, the bigger problem is what to do with all of these equations. I will have to come up with a new workflow that might work. The problem is that I painstakingly chose the MathType fonts, settings, etc. and its REAL frustrating that its not working. I even switched to the MathType factor settings and that gives me the same problem! Is there any idea to better understand why the .EPS is giving this issue?

                                    Well, .EPS files are PostScript files, which are just text files.

                                    So...take a really simple one that causes the problem, and look inside with a text editor.

                                    Or upload it somewhere and post a link to it. (Or email it to me?)

                                     

                                    We can take them piece-by-piece and figure out what part, if any, is causing the problem...

                                    • 15. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                      Brian2025 Level 1

                                      The plot thickens! I tried another .EPS generated from MathMagic (not MathType) and gives me the same issue! Something else has got to be going on...and there is.

                                       

                                      I am placing the equation in a table so I can properly position it (and even then its still hard). So I pulled the equation out into the body and the problem goes away! Of course then, I put it back into the equation and the problem wouldn't come back. I do remember recently playing with the table and adjusting the cell inset top/bottom to 0.0. So I haven't exactly isolated the problem, but appears to be combination of these effects.

                                       

                                      John, I will send you a .EPS from MathType file for kicks. Coming your way.

                                      • 16. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                        peter minneapolis Level 4

                                        Brian2025 wrote:

                                         

                                        As far as the Adobe tech support goes, I think they just shoot darts and apply standard processes. Most tech support guys don't really think about the problem and listen to the symptoms. I pushed them for what was really going on and they admitted they didn't really know. I said what good is that if I don't know how to prevent it.

                                         

                                        ****GOOD NEWS**** I am pretty sure I found the problem, with your guys suggestions. After deleting all .EPS equation imports, everything ran fine. I also noticed it opens instantly. Before it would show the "thinking" cursor for a few seconds.... an indication there is a problem.

                                         

                                        Now, the bigger problem is what to do with all of these equations. I will have to come up with a new workflow that might work. The problem is that I painstakingly chose the MathType fonts, settings, etc. and its REAL frustrating that its not working. I even switched to the MathType factor settings and that gives me the same problem! Is there any idea to better understand why the .EPS is giving this issue?

                                         

                                        I used to do software tech support, so I know a little more than most folks about how things are done on that side of the trouble call. There's a great skill range among tech-support agents. Depending on the company and product, and whether the support folks work directly for the company, or for a subcontractor, as in any industry, keeping costs low drives the operation. Quality costs. If you're paying for a support incident, you deserve the best, not the lowest-paid, least-experienced helpers, who may be under pressure to produce a high volume of revenue-creating calls, by skimping on the depth and thoroughness of support.

                                         

                                        You're the customer. It's within your right to ask right off the bat, "Do you have experience in solving this problem successfully?" If you don't get a convincing answer, it's your right to say, "I want to ESCALATE this case to someone who has the expertise to solve it for me, quickly, the first time. Please connect me to the highest-level manager in tech support, so I can have that person escalate the case for me. If that person is not available, connect me to that person's highest-level manager. I don't want to waste your time or mine. Please enter my phone number in the case notes, in case the call is disconnected, and connect me to the manager I've asked for. I'd like you to make an 'accompanied call transfer,' staying on the phone with me while you connect to the manager and explain why you're making the transfer. Thanks for your time."

                                         

                                        Consider it a favor you're doing for the company - teaching it that script-reading inexperienced support agents who tell customers to reinstall the product and/or the entire system to get rid of them isn't acceptable.

                                         

                                        And, remember, if you're paying for an incident by credit card, and you don't get the problem resolved to your satisfaction, you can protest the charge with the card company with the reason being the product, the service, was defective.

                                         

                                        The point isn't to be nasty or cheat the company out of what it's earned properly; the point is that you should get what you paid for.

                                         

                                        HTH

                                         

                                        Regards,

                                         

                                        Peter

                                        _______________________

                                        Peter Gold

                                        KnowHow ProServices

                                        • 17. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                                          OK. Perhaps we could take a step back, I still want to understand the crash.

                                          Can you try the following, please.

                                           

                                          Download and install 7-Zip (http://www.7-zip.org/).

                                          Download this MSI: http://download.microsoft.com/download/6/C/B/6CB8E73A-82C1-466A-9431-392D09E4BEAB/Microsof tFixit50541.msi.

                                           

                                          Don't install the MSI, but extract it with 7-Zip.

                                          Inside you will find a file called CabFile.

                                           

                                          Extract CabFile with 7-Zip.

                                          You will find DRWTSN32.EXE.

                                           

                                          Copy it to the Desktop.

                                           

                                          Hit Windows-R and type in CMD.

                                          At the command prompt cd to the desktop.

                                          Run DRWTSN32.EXE -I.

                                           

                                          Oof, that was a pain! Now you should be able to crash InDesign and follow the instructions at http://indesignsecrets.com/guide-to-interpreting-indesign-crash-reports.php to get to the Stack Back Trace. That's what I would like to see.

                                           

                                          (I don't have a Windows 7 machien to test this on, so I'm shooting a bit in the dark here. Help me out... Got your email, taking a look shortly...)

                                          • 18. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                            John Hawkinson Level 5

                                            Err, can you tell me more-specifically how to create the problem?

                                            I have your EPS file (may I post it publicly?).

                                            It's pretty short...172 lines...of which the first 70 are comments.

                                             

                                            Hmm, also some font errors...

                                             

                                            Placing it in InDesign, both in a text box as well as in a table in a text box seems to work fine...

                                            • 19. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                              John Hawkinson Level 5

                                              OK, I got your test files. And...seriously? This is the crash on a mac:

                                               

                                              Thread 0 Crashed:  Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
                                              0   ...esign.Package and Preflight    0x1fe47f91 GetPlugIn + 768193
                                              1   ...esign.Package and Preflight    0x1fe052c0 GetPlugIn + 494576
                                              2   ...esign.Package and Preflight    0x1fd6e463 0x1fcd2000 + 640099
                                              3   ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a760746 GetPlugIn + 473814
                                              4   ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a760878 GetPlugIn + 474120
                                              5   ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a779dcc GetPlugIn + 577884
                                              6   ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a77b0bf GetPlugIn + 582735
                                              7   ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a761d15 GetPlugIn + 479397
                                              8   ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a77a9b7 GetPlugIn + 580935
                                              9   ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a77ae70 GetPlugIn + 582144
                                              10  ...gn.Package and Preflight UI    0x2a762807 GetPlugIn + 482199
                                              11  ...adobe.InDesign.AppFramework    0x1e48ffa7 GetPlugIn + 45687
                                              12  ...adobe.InDesign.AppFramework    0x1e490569 GetPlugIn + 47161
                                              13  PublicLib.dylib                   0x0124fde9 CSubject::Change(IDType<ClassID_tag>, IDType<PMIID_tag> const&, void*) + 89
                                              14  ...esign.Package and Preflight    0x1fd6c5fc 0x1fcd2000 + 632316
                                              15  ...esign.Package and Preflight    0x1fd6f88c 0x1fcd2000 + 645260
                                              16  ...esign.Package and Preflight    0x1fd7b09c 0x1fcd2000 + 692380
                                              17  ...esign.Package and Preflight    0x1fd7b485 0x1fcd2000 + 693381
                                              18  ...adobe.InDesign.AppFramework    0x1e4bff65 GetPlugIn + 242229
                                              19  ...adobe.InDesign.AppFramework    0x1e4c0e8c GetPlugIn + 246108
                                              20  ...adobe.InDesign.AppFramework    0x1e462d28 0x1e460000 + 11560
                                              21  ...adobe.InDesign.AppFramework    0x1e4884fa GetPlugIn + 14282
                                              22  com.adobe.InDesign                0x000028ab main + 187
                                              23  com.adobe.InDesign                0x000027c6 start + 54
                                              
                                              

                                               

                                              I say seriously?! because the crashes that drive me insane are all crashes in Preflight.

                                              So the quick answer is just to Turn Off Preflight.

                                               

                                              If Adobe can replicate your problem, well, make sure they file a bug and that you get a bug number out of them. Then it might get fixed in CS6.

                                              1 person found this helpful
                                              • 20. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                Brian2025 Level 1

                                                WOW!

                                                 

                                                Thanks so much for finding the bug! I could have never found it. I turned on preflight (everything) so I could see if I am doing something stupid as I am learning. I figured it would be good to get an idea earlier than sooner.

                                                • 21. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                  Personally, I think you should be much more annoyed at Adobe support.

                                                   

                                                  I mean, there's a lot of stuff they can't do and can't be expected to do, but reading the crash report here far enough to say, "Oh, I guess this is a problem in preflight" doens't exactly take a PhD in crash report analysis. It's only every-other-word of the stack trace (ok, fine, it's once per line).

                                                   

                                                  That should really be the first thing they look at in a crash...

                                                   

                                                  Yeah, I would like to think Preflight is a great feature and I'd love to use it...we see problems that Adobe can't replicate, and I'm running out of escalation options to make them better. Yours, on the other hand, at least they should be able to see. You could try narrowing down your prefight profile to try to figure out which one is causing the problem...

                                                  • 22. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                    Brian2025 Level 1

                                                    Well, it did waste a few hours of my time, which really sucks when you are trading that for sleep. But is was free (perhaps because I purchased within the last year). I told them to not close the issue and elevate it and that they would call me tomorrow. So perhaps it would have eventually been resolved...with enough wasted time.

                                                     

                                                    At least I knew better than to chase their wacky suggestions. I would have only mucked things up and developed a workflow that was completely ridiculous. Their suggestion was very poor. He wanted to close the ticket thinking it was resolved, but I said that was an unacceptable "solution".

                                                    • 23. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                      I turned on preflight (everything) so I could see if I am doing something stupid as I am learning

                                                       

                                                      It seems to narrow down to a single preflight check, "TEXT > Paragraph Style and Character Style Overrides." It is probably worth turning all the other preflight checks back on (at least until they cause crashes), since I think your intuition is correct and they are useful to have on, and if they start to cause other crashes later, they probably won't lead to major data loss and you can just turn them off again...

                                                      • 24. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                        First Running SplitStory should NEVER, repeat NEVER be done unless you really intend that each frame be its own story. Unimaginable damage gets done to things like numbered lists and paragraphs that span across frames with styles that use nested styles or call for special first line indents. Did you get this guy's name? He needs to be retrained.

                                                         

                                                        Second, I don't work with MathType, but their .eps files are mentioned here fairly often as a problem (usually, I think, it's the font). My recollection is that the standard workaround is to open the .eps in Illustrator, fix the font (i.e. use one that works) and resave as .ai, then place that instead.

                                                        • 25. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                          Brian2025 Level 1

                                                          No, I didn't catch his name. But I did push him for what really is going on and that it was not acceptable. It was making things a mess and I knew it was not really a solution. He told me he thought it was and I began to strongly disagree, haha. At that point he said he would elevate the issue. They are going to call me today, but really...I just want to move on. I will tell them the issue and the resolution though.

                                                           

                                                          As far as MathType goes, the jury is out on the best workflow (my opinion). I have spent many hours investigating the various approaches (MathType, MathMagic, and Latex). My opinion is that if you are going to go through Illustrator, you are better served by translating it to MathMagic or Latex. Both of those are more robust. However, that takes time and presents other issues. That being said, MathType does seem to work well if you use a .EPS (for now). I think the issues found by most were a liberal use of fonts without first understanding the reprecusions of using them...I *think*. You can either use the standard fonts or change them with extreme caution, and also proofing your workflow. Also, if you have hundreds of equations (my case) you have to come up with an efficient workflow and I don't think pushing it through Illustrator is the way to go (again, better to go through MathMagic or Latex). No matter how you slice it, you are going to make a trade and its truly a mess. I would pay good money to the guy who came up with a better software to handle it.

                                                           

                                                          P.S. If you ever view a .EPS from MathType in Illustrator, it is built awefully. It's really hard to modify and I would need to play around just to figure it out. I have easily edited MathMagic .EPS as they are built in a much more elegant manner.

                                                          • 26. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                            No doubt this is a mess, and an automated solution would be nice.

                                                             

                                                            I wonder if you could do an action in Illustrator, then run a batch on a folder full of equations? Illy is not my strongest app.

                                                             

                                                            Pain in the neck aside, is it better to spend the time doing whatever you need in terms of conversions, or waste hours and risk file damage with constant crashing?

                                                            • 27. Re: Consistently Crashing
                                                              Brian2025 Level 1

                                                              Well, it looks like the crashing issue is resolved and MathMagic (MathType alternative) gives the same problem. I haven't tried Illustrator's .EPS, but it may yield the same problem anyway. The conversions from MathType are done via batch command so it is a single click solution. I still don't think going through Illustrator is the best option if you consider the others, even though it is a potenitally viable.

                                                               

                                                              I heard back from Adobe. Their solution was to go to select all pages and right click/move pages to a new document. Supposedly this fixes it. I haven't tried, but even if it does work for that instance, I suspect it will come right back. I told them about the preflight issue and they were uninterested.