16 Replies Latest reply on Aug 8, 2011 5:23 PM by rob day

    Rich black needs to be designed?

    GA_Anderson Level 1

      In ID (CS5) preferences, it offers an option of "Accurate blacks" or "Rich blacks".  As discussed before, "Accurate blacks" are 100%K and "Rich blacks" are a combination of CMYK.  Am I assuming correctly that if you have designed a black box in InDesign and want it to print with a rich black, as well as choosing the "Rich black" option in Preferences, you also need to 'make' the black out of CMYK (such as 60C, 50M, 40Y, and 100K).  You can not just choose the 'Print with Rich black' preference thinking it will change all of your blacks into rich black mixtures.  Is that correct?

        • 1. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          Print with rich black is designed for low end desktop printers only.

           

          FWIW, my opinion is that anyone doing work destined for press should have both setting at accurate. For press you need to create and assign a rich black swatch.

           

          Bob

          • 3. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            BobLevine wrote:

             

            FWIW, my opinion is that anyone doing work destined for press should have both setting at accurate. For press you need to create and assign a rich black swatch.

             

            I'm a print guy, and I disagree with Bob on this. I keep my dispaly set to accurate, becasue that affects what I see on screen, but the output setting has no effect whatever on exported PDF, which is the preferred file for handoff, so in essence the setting is pretty irrelevant for press.

             

            That said, it DOES affect PRINTING to PDF using composite grayscale as the destination. If set to output accurately, 100%K is reserved in the output for rich blacks, and your 100% K type will print as a screen to reflect that it is lighter than a rich black. Small matter, and if you don't print to PDF or desktop printers, it really doesn't matter.

            • 4. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
              Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

              Very good reason to avoid “printing to PDF” altogether and especially to grayscale!

               

                        - Dov

              • 5. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                The rich black settings do not apply to CMYK PostScript printing or in any way to PDF export.

                 

                          - Dov

                • 6. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Dov Isaacs wrote:

                   

                  Very good reason to avoid “printing to PDF” altogether and especially to grayscale!

                   

                            - Dov

                  I'm going to disagree slightly with this. In most cases where I need composite grayscale there is no concurrent need for transparency or other unsupported features in distilled PDF. I'm fully aware that one can export full color PDF (Could you guys PLEASE work on getting a grayscale export option?) and then do the grayscale conversion in Acrobat Pro, but that's a two-step operation, I personally find it a little confusing to get the settings correct, and even unskilled users (read that as joouranlism students with no real computer skills at all) can learn to use a print preset to produce a PDF page that we can send to our printer.

                  • 7. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                    GA_Anderson Level 1

                    Maybe I should try to dig into the research articles on this, but it easy to explain the differences of "Printing to PDF" (I assume you mean in the print dialogue box)... and making a PDF by going to File > Export?

                    • 8. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Printing to PDF is a shorcut to printing to Postscript File nad then distilling, the old method for making a PDF. Distilled PDF lacks support for transparency and interactivity (and I think accessibility features) so it is a poor method for creating content that will be seen online or print-destined output using any sort of transparency. Dov may have further commnet or correction on this.

                       

                      Exported PDF uses the built-in PDF library and not Distiller, and has support for all the advanced features of newer PDF. It is the preferred method of creating PDF, and I only advocate printing PDF under very narrow circumstances, as outlined above.

                      • 9. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                        Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                        What would you prefer, a conversion to grayscale PDF or a conversion to CMYK=(0,0,0,k) PDF? If we were to do anything, most likely we would do the latter, not the former. Grayscale is very problematic since problems occur with color managment and use with standard printing conditions. Converting to color-managed grayscale (and remember, the Adobe CS applications are always color-managed) and then rendering same with a RIP would likely yield RIP output with content on C, M, and Y separations as well as K. Having a monochrome PDF in CMYK where content is converted all to K is probably what most commercial printers would probably prefer.

                         

                                  - Dov

                        • 10. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          I can easily live with 0,0,0,k. I know there are others clamoring for a true support for grayscale profiles, but just being able to get a directly exported K-only file from a document with CMYK or RGB content would be heaven.

                          • 11. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                            Grant H Level 4
                            I'm a print guy, and I disagree with Bob on this. I keep my dispaly set to accurate

                            I do the same! Helps to spot certain, umm err Issues BEFORE exporting to eg: x1a PDA... (struggeling how to explain what I mean)... anyway creating a "rich black" swatch: make sure you know the printing output ink coverage max. (especialy if you gonna overprint that swatch—or use it in certain transparency effects etc—  for what ever reason...)

                             

                            man i wish i could explain better in english...

                             

                            G

                            • 12. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                              Grant H Level 4
                              I can easily live with 0,0,0,k.

                              as most of us do (i hope). Ill use a rich black for eg (prob a bad one but...): a logo set ontop of an image with stark contrasts and i want the logo's frame fill to be black...  0,0,0,100 set to overprint may not be enough to  "hide" the backgound underneath the logo...  other use: an object with a drop shadow above a dark background (0,0,0,100) will not blend nicely (depending on other things too of course).

                               

                              G

                              • 13. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                What would you prefer, a conversion to grayscale PDF or a conversion to CMYK=(0,0,0,k) PDF? If we were to do anything, most likely we would do the latter, not the former.

                                 

                                How about a grayscale space so objects could be CMYK, RGB, Lab, or Grayscale? Then have default [Black] always export unchanged to the black plate for CMYK or Grayscale destinations. The missing Grayscale space also creates a forum FAQ  "Why do grayscales preview differently in ID and PS?"

                                • 14. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                                  Grant H Level 4


                                  How about a grayscale space...

                                   

                                  thats a damn good idea!...

                                  • 15. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                                    Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                    Be careful what you ask for. Grayscale to CMYK is not g=(0,0,0,1-g) when ICC color management gets involved although some RIP developers and printers try to force that constraint. More often you get G to CMYK resulting in something other than (0,0,0,k). Keeping explicit grayscale out of InDesign was an excellent decision. Supporting grayscale as an official color space within InDesign is very different than supporting conversion to (0,0,0,k) for exported PDF. Two totally separate issues that should remain that way.

                                     

                                              - Dov

                                    • 16. Re: Rich black needs to be designed?
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Grayscale to CMYK is not g=(0,0,0,1-g)

                                      If there were a grayscale space why would there need to be a conversion to CMYK? Keep both native and placed grayscale objects as grayscale on export and avoid the conversion.