14 Replies Latest reply on Aug 15, 2011 5:56 AM by IthacaAuthor2011

    For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space

    IthacaAuthor2011

      Hello and thanks in advance,

       

      (I'm using InDesign CS 5.5 on a Mac.)

       

      I need to set the proper PDF export settings

      For printing a book on demand, with color drawings inside on the text pages.

       

      The onnly instructions that I have been able to find, say this:

       

      "Submit your graphics in the Adobe RGB color space, withprofile embedded."

       

      The Big Question: How do I do that ?

       

      I know enough to start with

      File --> Adobe PDF Presets --> Press Quality

       

      Then I click on the "Output Menu"

      and here's where I start to get lost.

       

      for

      Color Conversion ...

      I think I should select "Convert to Destination"

       

      for

      Destination

      I think it should be "Adobe RGB (1998)"

       

      Now in order to embed this profile,

      What should I select under:

      Profile Inclusion Policy   ?

       

      And is there anything else I should be doing to get these inside color images printing nicely ?

       

      Thanks again,

       

      IthacaAuthor (aka ZorbaTheGeek, but the forum would not let me log in with my old screen name)

        • 1. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          Without seeing the graphics, I'd say to try the PDF X/4 setting.

           

          Bob

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
            IthacaAuthor2011 Level 1

            Thanks, Bob. I am completely lost here.

            You could very well be right -- but when I looked at the PDF X/4 setting, it showed that the profile would be in CMYK.

            I think that Adobe RGB (1998) profile is needed: this is a Print On Demand printing machine, not an offset press.

            • 3. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
              Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

              Virtually all digital printing is done via either PostScript or PDF. In the former case, the PDF is converted to PostScript viat use of Acrobat and in the latter case, the PDF is sent directly to the digital printer.

               

              In either case, CMYK is in fact the actual destination color space. There are no real RGB printers!!! What is true is that non-PostScript / non-PDF printers (typically low end laser and inkjet printers as well as specialized inkjet and dye sublimation photo printers) do take in RGB via drivers and convert that to CMYK, but I don't believe that is what you are dealing with.

               

              Our recommendation at Adobe for best printing results, whether for offset or digital printing, is to export PDF as PDF/X-4 with no color conversion using the default CMYK color space (SWOP CMYK) or if instructed otherwise by your print service provider, one of the other CMYK color spaces provided by Adobe or by the print service provider themselves. FWIW, most on-demand digital print devices do have settings to fully emulate SWOP CMYK printing conditions. Using PDF/X-4 in this manner allows the existing color content in your InDesign document to be properly tagged in the output PDF file and converted to CMYK at the digital printing device's RIP.

               

              (It might also assist us if you can provide a pointer to the explicit instructions provided by your print service provider.)

               

                        - Dov

              • 4. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                but when I looked at the PDF X/4 setting, it showed that the profile would be in CMYK.

                 

                If you look at the Output panel of the PDF/X-4 preset, you should see that an Output Intent Profile Name is included with the file. An intent is not the same as a profile—it simply notifies the receiver what the author expects the final CMYK device will be. If you look under Color in the same panel you'll see Profile Inclusion Policy is grayed out and set to Include All Profiles—Include All profiles is a requirement of the X-4 standard. If your doc's colors, placed art, and transparency blend space are all RGB, the PDF/X-4 preset will work.

                 

                Otherwise make sure AdobeRGB is assigned as the document’s RGB space (Edit>Assign Profiles...), and your Transparency Blend space is set to RGB. Then from the PDF/X-4 preset's Output panel, set the Standard to None, Color Conversion to Convert to Destination, Destination to Adobe RGB, and Profile Inclusion to Include Destination Profile. Obviously your PDF will not be to an X standard but it sounds like that's not required.

                 

                x4.png

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                  IthacaAuthor2011 Level 1

                  Thank you Dov (and Bob) -- I will go with your recommendations of PDF/X-4

                   

                  I was influenced otherwise by this article, which talks about printing color interior images using the P.O.D. company, CreateSpace:
                  http://www.newselfpublishing.com/BetterColor.html

                   

                  I will report back here in a few weeks, when the sample copy of the book has been printed.

                   

                  Thanks again !

                   

                  Zorba

                  • 6. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                    Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                    Use of an RGB output intent profile and an RGB transparency blend space will most often yield absolutely disastrous results when printing with symptoms such as rich blacks (black text that is a mixture of C, M, Y, and K) as well as polluted primary cyan, magenta, and yellow colors. See my response above!

                     

                              - Dov

                    • 7. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                      IthacaAuthor2011 Level 1

                      Thank you, Rob.

                       

                      I just checked my inside images: about 12 images are scans of color paintings in the RGB mode, and 12 images are drawings scanned in grayscale mode.

                       

                      Should I use the PDF/X-4 as it is, or the PDF/X-4 with the changes you've noted in the last paragraph (and screen shot) of your message ?

                       

                      Zorba

                      • 8. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                        IthacaAuthor2011 Level 1

                        Thanks, Dov.

                         

                        I will go with the PDF/X-4 and not make any changes to it.

                         

                        Zorba

                        • 9. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                          Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                          Use the PDF/X-4 settings as-is. Don't change to an RGB color space. The only change in output intent color space would be if your print service provider prefers a different CMYK color space.

                           

                          With regards to your “grayscale” scans, you really need to make sure that they are in fact grayscale as opposed to RGB for which every pixel R=G=B. Open them in Photoshop and check the image mode. If they are RGB, convert to grayscale and save, preferablly without a profile. (This is to prevent your grayscale images from being printed with inks other than black!)

                           

                                    - Dov

                          • 10. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            I was not describing a best practice, I was simply responding to the question which was how to convert everything into one RGB space.

                            • 11. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Use of an RGB output intent profile and an RGB transparency blend space will most often yield absolutely disastrous results

                              There are also cases where a CMYK blend space could cause an equal disaster. In the case below there's no black on the page to worry about, but there is a SWOP CMYK file (with a 300% total ink limit) with text over it set to multiply. With the blend space as CMYK there are problematic total ink areas at 340% (top). In this case RGB would be a better choice because the doc profile is SWOP and the ink limit in the transparent areas would correctly be limited to 300% (bottom).

                               

                              cmykblend.png

                               

                               

                              rgbblend.png

                              • 12. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                                Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                The question comes down to whether you want a headache or an upset stomach! 

                                 

                                You might be able to solve the ink issue in the case you cited, but you could end up with distortions in the color as you end up with a CMYK=>RGB=>C'M'Y'K', 4-3-4 color conversion where typically CMYK does not equal C'M'Y'K' due to four colorants being converted to three colorants and then back to four. This is an inherent problem with ICC color management.

                                 

                                Ironically, the basic problem you cite would much less likely if the underlying image was originally RGB and kept that way until actual rendering.

                                 

                                          - Dov

                                • 13. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  I'm not arguing against PDF/X-4 and a CMYK transparency space as a best practice—just showing how it could be broken at the design end. It could also be broken at the production end particularly with large online printers where it is impossible to communicate about prepress issues.

                                   

                                  I use Vista Print (the Amazon of online printing) for small uncoated postcard jobs. Their instructions are to provide everything as SWOP CMYK, which is hardly best practice for printing on uncoated paper. With large postcards starting at $35 it isn't much of an investment to have targets printed. I've tried PDF/X-1a, PDF/X-4, and untagged CMYK and in all cases the CMYK ramps on my target are re-separated—the black only ramp separates to 4-color. So, for uncoated jobs they force a SWOP CMYK to (Vista?) CMYK conversion, which also converts black type to 4-color (always in perfect register).

                                   

                                  I'm guessing their odd workflow solves 2 significant problems. The source space is more predictable—a large percentage of ID users never change the default SWOP setting—and with the conversion to their CMYK space the very significant problem of total ink in high volume production goes away. The trade off is 4-color black, which they seem to always register to the dot. It may be that the OP's vendor is trying to do the same thing with AdobeRGB as the source space.

                                  • 14. Re: For P.O.D. Printing: How to Set Adobe RGB Color Space
                                    IthacaAuthor2011 Level 1

                                    I have submitted my files with PDF/X-4: they passed the pre-flight --

                                    but I guess it's the actual book that matters. That will arrive in a

                                    week.

                                     

                                    Thanks again to everyone for your advice and ideas.

                                     

                                    This color management world has got to be the most complicated aspect

                                    of InDesign -- I hope.

                                     

                                    Zorba