34 Replies Latest reply on Jan 5, 2012 5:16 PM by RjL190365

    For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...

    RjL190365 Level 4

      ...don't buy any prosumer video editing program (including Premiere Pro CS5.5). Here's why:

       

      Last night, I ran the PPBM5 test on an Intel i3-2100 system with 4GB of DDR3-1333 RAM, a 500GB OS drive and a 1TB project drive (both drives are 7200 RPM) and integrated (onboard) Intel HD Graphics 2000. (This is the kind of system that one might buy for the purpose of Interner surfing and some limited gaming.) I have just submitted the results to the PPBM5 site.

       

      The result?

       

      With a total time of 976 seconds, that system is around 20 times slower than a fast i7 system (although it was marginally faster than the other systems with dual-core CPUs on the PPBM5 results list). That i3-2100 system also proved that no system with a dual-core CPU performed as fast as a system with even a mediocre-performing quad-core CPU.

       

      In other words, at the lower end, you get what you pay for. This post and thread is to inform how senseless it is to cheap out on the components when building a video editing build.

        • 1. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          Randall,

           

          I received your submission and will add them first thing tomorrow. The Rag-Tag Jalopy leaves a lot to be desired, so I second your statement.

          • 2. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
            RjL190365 Level 4

            Sorry, I misstated the total time slightly. It was actually 973 seconds. But that still does not excuse that i3-2100 system.

             

            And with that system, there is not much that one can do with it: The CPU can't be overclocked, the motherboard (and chipset) supports only four ranks of RAM (this limits the maximum cost-effective RAM capacity to only 8GB because 16GB of RAM using two 8GB unbuffered non-ECC modules currently costs more than the rest of that system combined) and the chipset doesn't support RAID at all.

            • 3. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
              Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

              And I am guessing but since it has integrated graphics there may not be a possibilty of upgrading to an nVidia CUDA card--is that right Randall?  If a Randfall had an old junk box Cuda card that could be installed in this system I would guess that at least it might reduce that total score by more than 100 seconds.  This is the one an only i3-2xxx that has been tested.

              • 4. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                RjL190365 Level 4

                Bill,

                 

                I do not have a spare Nvidia card with more than 512MB of RAM right now. So I may be retesting it with the GTX 470 that's in my main rig (Randall's Dark Horse).

                • 5. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                  Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                  Randall, send me a PM with your address I will send you one of the 2 9500GT's both 1 GB that I have.  They appeared in this testing run which I have posted several times before and truely represent the low end of the CUDA spectrum.

                   

                  MPE-Study-2.jpg

                  • 6. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                    Randall,

                     

                    Your results have been included. Rank #333 of the current 389 entries with a RPI of nearly 20.

                    • 7. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                      RjL190365 Level 4

                      Thanks, Harm. Just as I suspected.

                       

                      However, adding an Nvidia CUDA GPU with 1GB of RAM would have reduced the total time by around 100 seconds but also reduced the RPI by nearly half. I'd only recommend this particular system for CS5.x if one maxes out the cost-effective RAM capacity to 8GB and an Nvidia CUDA card with 1GB of RAM is added - and even then, only if that user is going to do no more than 1440x1080 HDV for HD editing work.

                       

                      Message was edited by: RjL190365

                       

                      P.S. For comparison, the only other Sandy Bridge system with integrated Intel HD Graphics on the current PPBM5 results list came from payal: That system used a faster-performing i7-2600 (non-K) CPU but the same amount of RAM (4GB). Predictably, that system came in with an overall result of 622 seconds (and a rank of #277 out of 389 systems), with an RPI of nearly 12.7. Certainly, there is room for improvement with even this bargain-basement box; however, the returns from such improvements would be limited with only a lower-end dual-core CPU.

                      • 8. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                        RjL190365 Level 4

                        Just for nostalgia's sake:

                         

                        Remember my early months at DVInfo? Search my posts from January of 2010, and you will see my opinion at the time that the i7 wasn't worth the price premium over the Core 2 Quad Q9450 that I was using as my main system at the time. Back then, I wasn't using Premiere at all - but Sony Vegas, which did not take full advantage of the faster CPUs at the time. My system also had an ATI Radeon HD 4850 card with only 512MB of graphics RAM.

                         

                        Fast forward to today, I decided to revisit that system with PPro CS5 5.0.3 with 4GB of DDR2-800 system RAM, an Nvidia GeForce GT 240 card with only 512MB of graphics RAM (and therefore could not use MPE's GPU-accelerated mode at all). That system had served as my backup Internet rig before the switch to a more efficient i3-2100. I then ran PPBM5 on that former Internet rig. I'm glad I ran the tests because at some point between January 2010 and today I saw the light: The Nehalem, and later Sandy Bridge, architectures are much more efficient than the older Conroe/Penryn architecture. That old Q9450 system managed to be even slower than the dual-core i3-2100 system despite the Q9450 being a quad-core CPU! The Q9450 managed a downright sluggish 1072-second result compared to the 973-second result of the i3-2100. And even with a CUDA card with 1GB of graphics RAM and the hack, the Q9450 would have just barely beaten the i3-2100 with integrated graphics in total benchmark time (though the RPI would have been significantly lower due to just the GPU accelerated mode).

                         

                        I have just submitted the results for that system.

                         

                        Message was edited by: RjL190365

                        • 9. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                          chicagoMitch

                          This is an interesting exercise. I am "hobbiest" in need of a new system. I am starting to put my shopping list together. The question this begs for me is, what do I have to afford, or how much do I need to spend for a "proper video editing system." After reading the forums, for a few months, I feel like I can get a base system that could be expanded later (more ram, more disks...) for $1000-$12000. Is this a pipedream? I am running premiere pro and after effects cs5.5 suprisingly well on my work laptop. Granted, its a monster: quad core, 8gb of ram, but it only has one disk and no graphics card. My vanilla system should top that fairly easily.

                          • 10. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                            RjL190365 Level 4

                            chicagoMitch,

                             

                            Let me see...

                             

                            i7-2600K: $300

                            Asus P8Z68-V Pro: $200

                            16GB DDR3-1333 RAM: $120

                            GeForce GTX 560 Ti: $230

                            4 x 1TB 7200 RPM SATA hard drives: $240

                            320GB or 500GB 7200 RPM SATA hard drive (for OS): $45

                            850W "80-Plus Gold" PSU (e.g. Corsair CMPS-850AX): $170

                            Case: $150

                            Blu-ray burner: $100

                             

                            Total: $1555

                             

                            That is the minimum that I would recommend spending for a "proper" editing system that isn't seriously limited by the CPU, GPU or an insufficient number of drives. You could spend less - but you'd have to settle for a less-than-optimal CPU or GPU or an insufficient number of hard drives or a PSU that cannot handle the load of an editing rig without exploding or dying out on you or a case that is so cramped or offers insufficient air circulation/airflow.

                             

                            Message was edited by: RjL190365

                            • 11. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                              John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              If you absolutely can't afford the "fully ready" cost of...

                               

                              16GB DDR3-1333 RAM: $120

                              4 x 1TB 7200 RPM SATA hard drives: $240

                              320GB or 500GB 7200 RPM SATA hard drive (for OS): $45

                               

                              You could START with...

                               

                              8GB DDR3-1333 RAM (2x4Gig)

                              2 x 1TB 7200 RPM SATA hard drives

                              320GB or 500GB 7200 RPM SATA hard drive (for OS)

                               

                              And then add Ram and/or hard drives as need and $$ is available

                               

                              The computer I built a bit over a year ago is described at http://forums.adobe.com/thread/652694?tstart=0

                               

                              My 3 hard drives are configured as... (WD = Western Digital)
                              1 - 320G WD Win7 64bit Pro and all program installs
                              2 - 320G WD Win7 swap file and video project files
                              3 - 1T WD all video files... input & output files
                              .
                              Search Microsoft to find out how to redirect your Windows swap file
                              http://search.microsoft.com/search.aspx?mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US

                               

                              For home hobbyist editing of AVCHD my computer does very well... for me

                              • 12. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                Zoop studio Level 1

                                Great rig!

                                Maybe throw another $ 80,- for 2x Samsung spinpoint F4 320 in raid 0 for preview/cache?

                                I would swap the 560 for a 470 (oc version with 3 quit fans)

                                • 13. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                  Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                  Why go backward with the older 470 when you can have a lower power current/quieter 500 series generation?   Also nVidia will be selling this fall the GTX 600 series.   Overclocking of the GPU will help you only if you are gaming, it does nothing at all with Premiere.

                                  • 14. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                    Zoop studio Level 1

                                    Bill, I guess you're right, you're much smarter in these mathers, I only saw a nice 3 fanner (less noise) and 10% less power use.

                                    Where do you stand in the ''only need 96 cudacores'' for max. performance like written on the studio1 website?

                                    http://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/PremiereCS5.htm

                                    If right I would go for a 90,- 440 card

                                    • 15. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                      Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                      Here are the results of my testing of 8 different graphics cards on my system with PPBM5 including overclocking my GTX 580.  I would say there are diminishing returms as you exceed 100 cores but hardly maximum performance.

                                       

                                      MPE-Study-2.jpg

                                      • 16. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                        chicagoMitch Level 1

                                        Okay, how about this two phased approach.

                                         

                                        Phase 1:

                                        • OS Drive: Samsung 320 GB SATA2 7200rpm 16 MB Hard Drive HD322GJ $50
                                        • Case: Antec Nine Hundred Two V3 Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Gaming Case $$120
                                        • Mobo: ASUS P6X58D-E $200
                                        • Power Supply: CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX850 V2 850W ATX12V v2.31/ EPS12V v2.92 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC High Performance Power $135
                                        • CPU: Intel Core i7-950 $260
                                        • RAM: CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (3 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 $85
                                        • D: and E: drives: 2 x SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive $120
                                        • DVD Burner: $20

                                         

                                        Total $990

                                         

                                        After a few weeks of use, (and next bonus drops)

                                         

                                        Phase 2:

                                        • Video card: GIGABYTE Ultra Durable VGA Series GV-N470OC-13I REV2.0 GeForce GTX 470 (Fermi) 1280MB 320-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP $230
                                        • RAM: CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (3 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 $85
                                        • Disks: SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive $120
                                        • Blu-ray burner: Pioneer Black Blu-ray Burner SATA BDR-206DBKS $110

                                         

                                        Phase 2 total: $550

                                         

                                        Grand total: $1540

                                         

                                        Thoughts?

                                        • 17. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                          JEShort01 Level 4

                                          ChicagoMitch,

                                           

                                          Sounds like a great plan to me; should work just fine.

                                           

                                          Make sure to add a good cooler for your CPU too.

                                           

                                          Jim

                                          • 18. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                            Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                            If you really are set on the GTX 470 you maybe should put it high on your priority list as it has been discontinued from production and that report is dated May 25th.  Looking at Newegg as an example that Gigabyte board is the only GTX 470 still availble and when their present stock is gone so is the GTX 470 as an option. You might have good luck by waiting until November/December!

                                             

                                            Here are a few details on the GTX 600 series apparently to be released in Novenber

                                             

                                            So, here are some key features of Kepler (code name for rumoured GTX 600 series) cards:  

                                             

                                            TSMC 28 nm fabrication technology   (current Fermi is TSMC in a 40 nm process)

                                            It is theoretically 2 to 3 times faster than current graphics cards based on Fermi architecture. 

                                            512-bit bus processing. 

                                            DirectX 11.1 

                                            Open GL 5.0 or may be upgraded to this version later. 

                                            1024 CUDA cores 

                                            Release date – November 2011

                                             

                                            Much more power efficient (cooler) than the current Fermi series because of the small die.

                                            • 19. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                              RjL190365 Level 4

                                              Bill,

                                               

                                              Thanks for the suggestion that I retest with a cheap MPE GPU-acceleration-compatible card.

                                               

                                              I remember that a few months ago I donated my 1GB DDR5 GeForce GT 240 to a business system that I put together (to be used at a pizza place downstairs from my residence). This morning, during routine maintenance I swapped the card out for the 512MB version of that same GPU (because their LCD monitor is only a 1280x1024 4:3 monitor, and they use the system just for Web surfing). That way, I now have the 1GB GT 240 back for testing.

                                               

                                              I re-ran the PPBM5 tests with the 1GB card in the Q9450 system - and I was quite amazed at the difference in performance: The total PPBM5 time went from 1072 seconds to 751 seconds! All of the scores improved except for the AVI disk score.

                                               

                                              I have submitted the scores with this MPE-enabled system.

                                               

                                              I will re-test my i3-2100 with this same GPU later.

                                              • 20. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                Do you want me to ADD them, or REPLACE them?

                                                • 21. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                  RjL190365 Level 4

                                                  Replace the existing 1072-second "Busted Buy" entry with the new 751-second "Busted Buy MPE" entry.

                                                   

                                                  When the new results for "Rag-Tag Jalopy MPE" are submitted, keep the existing "Rag-Tag Jalopy" one at 973 seconds.

                                                  • 22. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                    RjL190365 Level 4

                                                    I have just submitted the results for the i3-2100 system retested with a 1GB GeForce GT 240.

                                                     

                                                    Just adding a CUDA card improved that system's performance by more than 300 seconds overall. Whereas the i3-2100 system with just the integrated Intel HD Graphics 2000 scored an unimpressive 973 seconds on the PPBM5 benchmark test, that same system with the GT 240 added scored a very respectable (for a system with only one dual-core CPU) 637 seconds (although that system still had only 4GB of RAM).

                                                     

                                                    So, the new 637-second result is submitted under the name "Rag-Tag Jalopy MPE". Please ADD this result to the list, and keep the existing 973-second result from the original "Rag Tag Jalopy" on the list for comparison purposes.

                                                    • 23. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                      Done.

                                                       

                                                      If you want to have a look at the latest entries, just click on the column 'Date' twice to sort in descending order and you see the latest results at the top.

                                                      • 24. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                        BenFreedman Level 1

                                                        Howdy.  Just a quick thing to remember.... These threads always seems to come down to PPBM scores, and how terrible they are on cheap hardware, however not everyone needs super-fast rendering speed, but rather just a decent editing workflow for what may only be 1 or 2 tracks of SD or HD video.   I've recently used PPro on a sub-$800 machine from Costco with just 1 drive and a 2nd media drive attached via Usb3. Editing at 1/2 playback resolution was in realtime with 2 and 3 simultaneous AVCHD tracks wit color correction.  Rendering was slow, but that didn't matter on this job.  I love the PPBM charts, but just because you gave a low score and a slow render, doesn't mean you can't have a great editing experience on an inexpensive sub-$1000 machine.  Best,  Ben

                                                        • 25. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                          RjL190365 Level 4

                                                          Ben,

                                                           

                                                          That may be true on a very recent system equipped with a very recent lower-end Intel CPU. But if your system is equipped with an outdated CPU such as a Core 2, then editing might become frustratingly slow, taking as long as two or three times longer than real-time.

                                                          • 26. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                            BenFreedman Level 1

                                                            Agreed. I'm not really comparing new vs. old systems, rather just trying to see if a modern $1000-$1500 laptop is happy editing a few tracks of HD video in realtime. Obviously YMMV. I have a couple of mid-range laptops at home I may try this out on to see...

                                                             

                                                            I just hate the 'don't bother even trying to edit on a laptop unless you have spent $4K' mantra which is often repeated on this forum.

                                                             

                                                            B.

                                                            • 27. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                              RjL190365 Level 4

                                                              Ben

                                                               

                                                              Some of those $1000~$1500 laptops perform respectably well, even in the PPBM5 benchmark tests. (Although most laptops of a given price perform as slow as or slower than a desktop that costs half as much.)

                                                               

                                                              What I had tested initially was actually a $500 desktop with integrated (onboard) graphics and no RAID capability whatsoever. I had to add a second internal hard drive in order to properly run the PPBM5 tests. It also shows that simply turning off the integrated/onboard graphics in favor of a discrete Nvidia PCI-e CUDA GPU with 1GB or more video RAM improved performance significantly.

                                                              • 28. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                                RjL190365 Level 4

                                                                Since my last findings, prices for the 8GB DDR3 unbuffered non-ECC single modules have come down in price. However, 16GB dual-channel kits still cost three times more money per GB than 8GB dual-channel kits. This means that 16GB kits consisting of two 8GB modules still cost $250 to $300 while 16GB kits consisting of four 4GB modules can be bought for between $90 and $100. Those prices make maxing out an H61 system in RAM more expensive than the CPU and motherboard combined.

                                                                • 29. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                                  RjL190365 Level 4

                                                                  Also, I saw another i3-2100 system appear on the PPBM5 results list. I had to laugh out loud at just how much money that system cost compared to my own build. That i3-2100 was equipped with an H67 (instead of an H61) motherboard, two 150GB Velociraptors and a GeForce GTX 480 GPU - and still only outperformed my i3-2100 / H61 / GT 240 equipped system by 10 seconds! To me, that system would have been a total waste of money for video editing, especially since that expensive GPU was limited in performance by the CPU. A better balance for that i3 system would have been a 320GB 7200 RPM OS drive, two 1TB 7200 RPM hard drives and a GeForce GT 545 GDDR5: That combo would have performed about the same while costing significantly less money. Or, a better CPU balance for that Velociraptor / H67 / GTX 480 system would have been the plain, non-K i7-2600.

                                                                   

                                                                  The moral of this thread, in addition to the general weakness of such cheap systems for video editing, is that it is downright silly to go heavy on the GPU and light on the CPU. Balance is important!

                                                                  • 30. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                    it is downright silly to go heavy on the GPU and light on the CPU. Balance is important!

                                                                     

                                                                    Hear, hear, that is the truth of the day! Well, maybe of all times. Well said, Randall.

                                                                    • 31. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                                      RjL190365 Level 4

                                                                      What's more, the MPE score for the i3-2100 / GTX 480 combo is a mere one second faster than my i3-2100 / GT 240 combo: 16 seconds versus 17 seconds. Both systems were equipped with 4GB of RAM and were running 5.0.3 at the time of testing. Doubling the RAM to 8GB would have improved the MPEG-2 DVD encoding performance but little else with such a cheap CPU.

                                                                       

                                                                      In other words, a top-of-the-line (for its generation) GPU on a system with a current low-end CPU is one way to lower the BFTB (Bang For The Buck) rating severely.

                                                                      • 32. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                                        RjL190365 Level 4

                                                                        Another update:

                                                                         

                                                                        The "Rag-Tag Jalopy" has been upgraded in software to CS5.5. I have just submitted the results on the PPBM5 site with both the onboard video and with the GT 240. With such a small amount of system RAM, it's no wonder why CS5.5 made little difference in the overall PPBM5 results compared to CS5.03: 994 seconds for CS5.5 versus 973 seconds for CS5.03 with the onboard video; 645 seconds for CS5.5 versus 637 seconds for CS5.03 with the GT 240.

                                                                         

                                                                        Harm, can you please replace both of the Rag-Tag Jalopy entries on the list with the newly submitted results?

                                                                        • 33. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                                          RjL190365 Level 4

                                                                          Okay, I tried 8GB of RAM in the i3-2100 system with the GT 240 in MPE GPU mode, and I pretty much confirmed what Bill found on his overclocked i7-2600K system between 4GB and 8GB: With CS5.5, the total PPBM5 time on my i3 system with 8GB only improved to 633 seconds versus 645 seconds with 4GB. (The individual test scores improved only slightly, with the exception of the disk I/O score which remained virtually the same as with 4GB.) That confirms my suspicions: Unless you have programs that really need 8GB and do not take much advantage of multithreading, stick with 4GB on that budget desktop. But if building such a system as a new build, then yes, go for 8GB since 4GB (2 x 2GB) kits would have cost well over half the cost of 8GB dual-channel (2 x 4GB) kits.

                                                                           

                                                                          Interestingly, when left to run in MPE software-only mode, the i3-2100 system with discrete Nvidia graphics is no faster in the PPBM5 tests than that same system running only the integrated Intel HD Graphics 2000 within the CPU.

                                                                          • 34. Re: For those of you who cannot afford a proper video editing system...
                                                                            RjL190365 Level 4

                                                                            Another update:

                                                                             

                                                                            Before I replaced the CPU and motherboard, I upgraded the GPU all the way to a non-Ti GTX 560. That GPU did improve the i3's performance tangibly; however, it is still about 4.75 times slower than a fast i7 system (as indicated by the RPI, or Relative Performance Index). An upgrade to a true quad-core CPU, a Z68 motherboard and at least one two-disk aid0 array (plus an overclock of the i5-2400 to its maximum 3.6GHz) resulted in still more tangible improvements in performance. I submitted that result of this upgraded system (now named "Randall's Flying Pig") to the PPBM5 site (results have not yet been published); however, the total time is now 325 seconds (broken down into 77 seconds for Disk I/O, 153 seconds for MPEG-2 DVD, 88 seconds for H.264 Blu-ray, 98 seconds for MPE off and 7 seconds for MPE on). As such, this short-of-maximized i5-2400 build (still with only 8GB of RAM) beat out all but two of the i5 systems on that entire PPBM5 results list, and is slower than only one of the i5 systems when counting only those that were running CS5.5 (these comparisons were made only against other i5 systems on the list, not to any i7 systems at all).

                                                                             

                                                                            Accounting for all of the individual test results, my tweaked i5-2400 auxiliary editing rig is now about three times slower than a fast top-of-the-line i7 system, maybe a tad more than three times slower. But hey, the top-performing system costs nearly $3,000 compared to about $850 for my auxiliary build (at the time that I purchased the individual components).