26 Replies Latest reply on Aug 24, 2011 4:33 AM by Dov Isaacs

    Info panel not displaying eps info

    bigdrunk

      I cannot get the ppi information to display in the info panel. Is this some new spangly feature of InDesign, or a bug?

       

      Screen Shot 2011-08-19 at 16.35.12.png

        • 1. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          It's a fact of life. Stop using EPS and save as TIF or PSD. If the graphic contains vector data save as PDF.

           

          Bob

          • 2. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
            Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Bob is correct. The way an EPS is constructed, the image data is "encapsulated" so you can't read that information (EPS = Encapsulated PostScript).

             

            It's an old format which, for the most part, has been replaced by better formats. AI for vectors from Illustrator, and PSD or TIFF for images.

            • 3. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
              John Hawkinson Level 5

              Err.

              Once again, we have the knee-jerk anti EPS reaction getting in the way of correct information. It's OK, guys, to suggest alternatives to EPS, but please do it for the right reasons.

               

              EPS files can express  a lot of different kinds of information, many of which have no concept of PPI. Let's say you have this EPS file:

               

              %!PS-Adobe-2.0
              %%BoundingBox: 0 0 100 100
              /inch {72 mul} def newpath
              0.5 inch 0.5 inch moveto
              0.5 inch 0.5 inch 0.5 inch -45 45 arc
              closepath stroke
              

               

              That looks like this:

              arc.png

              It is meaningless to talk about its PPI. That will only be determined if it is rasterized by outputting it to some particular device. It's an arc of a circle that is resolution-independent.

               

              Bob suggests:

              It's a fact of life. Stop using EPS and save as TIF or PSD. If the graphic contains vector data save as PDF.

              The raster formats (TIFF and somewhat PSD) will give you a PPI, but only because they rasterize your data. This is not a good choice.

              A PDF won't give you give you any PPI information either, for the same reason that EPS won't.

               

              Steve writes:

              The way an EPS is constructed, the image data is "encapsulated" so you can't read that information (EPS = Encapsulated PostScript).

               

              That is not what "encapsulated" means!

               

              Let's quote from the EPS specification http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/ps/5002.EPSF_Spec.pdf:

              An encapsulated PostScript file is a PostScript language program describing
              the appearance of a single page. Typically, the purpose of the EPS file is to
              be included, or “encapsulated,” in another PostScript language page description.
              The EPS file can contain any combination of text, graphics, and images,
              and it is the same as any other PostScript language page description with only
              a few restrictions. Figure 1 conceptually shows how an EPS file can be
              included in another PostScript language document.

              epsfigure1.png

               

              You absolutely can read the data inside an EPS file. Encapsulation just means that the file is intended to be used inside another file, i.e. it is not a standalone postcript file that is intended to be sent straight to a printer.

               

              It's an old format which, for the most part, has been replaced by better formats. AI for vectors from Illustrator, and PSD or TIFF for images.

              EPS wasn't replaced by TIFF -- TIFF predates EPS, and in fact, EPS and PostScript have support for embedded TIFFs.

              But EPS was never intended as a generic raster format. It can support raster data, of course, but generally it would be silly to use it when you could just use TIFF. You would typically use EPS for rasters if you needed to combine raster and vector data, or perhaps if you were including graphics in a program that didn't support TIFF but did support EPS, such as LaTeX, I guess.

               

              AI is not a very good "replacement" for EPS -- it's not an open format.

               

              PDF is a plausible replacement for EPS, except there are some tradeoffs.

               

              Anyhow, it's worth reiterating the big problems with EPS: no support for color management, and no support for transparency in included raster images. (Of course, the arc image, above, is perfectly transparent.)

              • 4. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                And one again we have your kneejerk reaction to other opinions.

                 

                You want to use EPS? Knock yourself out but IMO there's no place at all for it in a modern, InDesign-based workflow.

                 

                Of course if a client supplies an EPS logo go right ahead and use it, but to create new graphics and save as EPS is waste of time and effort and results in a substandard file that has no color management or transparency support.

                 

                Bob

                • 5. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Hm, InDesign preflight can detect effective PPI from pure bitmap images with an EPS wrapper, if you define a threshold there.
                  So it's perfectly doable. I'm missing that feature in the Info panel…

                   

                   

                  Uwe

                  • 6. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                    John Hawkinson Level 5

                    Indeed. My assumption is that this is arguably a correct design decision. Vector formats can contain multiple raster format images, and if an EPS or PDF file were to have more than one, which one should be displayed by the Info panel? (Similarly, which would be returned as the .actualPpi attribute in the scripting DOM?). Arguably it is more confusing than helpful?

                     

                    The preflight mechanism doesn't have this problem, since it gets to return a list and mark a violation if anything in the list matches criteria...

                     

                    (On the other hand, the Info panel long predates the Preflight implementation, so it's a bit harder to argue this is Design rather than Implementation).

                    • 7. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                      Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      The info panel only shows PPI for raster formats, not formats that contain vector.As far as I know.

                       

                      EPS and PDF can both contain vector data. SO the info panel doesn't show the information.

                       

                      But the Preflight, as pointed out, can read the info the dual format file.

                       

                       

                       

                      EPS is an old format. Adobe has said it's only continuing support for EPS as a legacy format.

                       

                      PDF is the recognised format as the replacement for EPS.

                       

                      EPS still has it's place for certain things. But if you don't know the difference bewteen EPS, PDF, PSD, TIFF, etc. then you probably don't know the correct use of any of the file formats.

                       

                      The fact is, PDF is a much better format to use interchangeably between Adobe apps.

                       

                      And a PDF is a much smarter format to save from Photoshop when dealing with vector data from photoshop. Anything else (raster) should be saved as TIff or PSD. There really is no need to save as EPS.

                       

                      The only reason I can think of to use EPS format from Illy or PS is for Quark. And since we're an Indesign forum I doubt that is what the issue is.

                      • 8. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                        Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                        The only reason I can think of to use EPS format from Illy or PS is for Quark. And since we're an Indesign forum I doubt that is what the issue is.

                         

                        Eugene,
                        there could be another reason: efficiency in regard of file size and speed when dealing with bitmap data wrapped in an EPS encoded as JPEG maximum quality. But I think we can neglect that nowadays.

                         

                        On the other hand, what can we do when a customer provides all the images in EPS format? I saw this recently. A whole workflow with tenthousands of images in a CUMULUS data base. And nearly all were saved as EPS…

                         

                        Uwe

                        • 9. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                          Gernot Hoffmann Level 3

                          John #3 is almost right: An EPS cannot contain variable transparency

                          in raster images, but it's possible to use clipping paths for on/off transparency.

                          Color Management is possible, but mostly handled by the host program

                          which uses EPS components.

                           

                          EPS as a code container is not outdated for PostScript programmers.

                          PostScript is a programming language with excellent vector graphic and

                          typography features, thus ideal for mathematical illustrations (opposed to

                          hand-drawn fantasy illustrations).

                          Even 3D graphics are possible, but it's not simple. And then, we can define

                          colors for lines directly by CMYK, to avoid registration errors for arbitrary

                          CMYK mixtures, as generated by RGB-CMYK conversions. That's a good

                          example for not using color management by ICC profiles on purpose.

                          For all these applications I don't know a better alternative.

                          A few examples:

                           

                          http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/ciegraph17052004.pdf
                          http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/raster16052003.pdf

                          http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/colcalc03022006.pdf

                           

                          Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                          • 10. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                            Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            That's fantastic if you're a Postscript programmer. You can do a lot with it.

                             

                            But unless you know how to do it, it's not thebetter format for using in InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop.

                             

                            For anyone that is saving files from Illustrator it is better to use AI with PDF compatiblity turned on, or PDF in general. EPS is not a better format for saving from Illustrator, when placing images into Photoshop or InDesign.

                             

                            Similarly, saving from Photoshop as EPS is not a better fromat than saving to PDF. Especially when talking about saving Raster formats with layers etc., the better format is TIFF or PSD.

                             

                            If you have any vector data in the Photoshop file, text layers, vector shapes or masks, then it's better to save as PDF instead of EPS. PDF can retain layers, editablity etc. on opening again, and it outputs the  vector and raster data as it's in a PDF wrapper.

                             

                            Saving a file from Photoshop that has vector data will cause the entire file to be rasterised when opening again, and all layers will be flattened.

                             

                             

                            For the sake of argument. EPS has it's uses. But unless you know what you're doing you should not use EPS. Use the Adobe native file formats of .ai and PDF from Illustrator and Photoshop.

                            • 11. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                              John Hawkinson Level 5

                              I was reminded this morning of another reason why I like EPS files.

                              We have a fairly complex logo (2130 curves, 926 lines) drawn in Illustrator. Typically we use the EPS version, but for a variety of reasons, I needed a PDF variant.

                               

                              The .ai source file is 3875k. An Adobe PDF exported from Illustrator is 3707k. But an EPS exported from Illustrator is only 644k. Without the preview and the Illustrator private data, it is only 336k.

                               

                              Dropping the file size by 10x is not insignificant, and even on modern systems, it's a lot faster to deal with a 400k file than a 4mb file. I suppose a very legitimate question is why the PDF generated by Illustrator is so huge! (Indeed, feeding the Illustrator-written EPS file into Acrobat Distiller gives me an 85k PDF.) And this is not a case of different lossy compression characteristics -- this is exclusively vector work. Of course, I have sort of just decimated my argument, since 85k is also much nicer than 336k (4x improvement).

                               

                              Uwe notes:

                              On the other hand, what can we do when a customer provides all the images in EPS format? I saw this recently. A whole workflow with ten thousands of images in a CUMULUS data base. And nearly all were saved as EPS…

                              This doesn't seem a tough problem. If you really believed that PDF was a better format than EPS, it would pretty straightforward to batch convert them all to PDF. I guess the key question is whether you believe that...

                               

                              Eugene had said:

                              EPS is an old format. Adobe has said it's only continuing support for EPS as a legacy format.

                              And I asked him offline to substantiate that comment, because I did not believe it to be true. He referred me to an often-quoted Dov Isaacs comment at http://www.prepressure.com/library/file-formats/eps. But there Dov actually says, "Adobe will continue to support EPS as a legacy graphics format..." but he doesn't say only, and I think that word changes the meaning substantially.

                               

                              Eugene, you make several statements about "it is better" to save as as AI, or PDF, or TIFF, or PSD, but you don't actually say why. I think your post would be much more powerful if you explained why you thought what you think (of course, some of us might disagree with you).

                              I think there are certainly cases where PDF is a better format, but as my initial comments in this post conclude, you don't always get that kind of output out of Illustrator. I'm skeptical that using AI is a good idea, though, because of it's proprietary nature.

                               

                              How does ID read AI files, anyhow? I assume it reads the PDF data embedded in them, which is actually a different representation of the native AI data that's in the AI file? Or does it read the native AI data? Either way, that whole situation makes me queasy.

                               

                              I suppose this post is getting dangerously appropriate for the Illustrator forum.

                              • 12. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                John,

                                Just as a side note: I forgot to mention that the customer wanted to get back the InDesign files packaged together with the EPS files. I also had to provide new or retouched images in EPS format so that they could feed there image base. (Enough said )

                                 

                                About using AI files instead of EPS: it seems to me that in the case of highly complex vector graphics InDesign is struggling a lot with displaying them in EPS format. Same contents saved as AI format with PDF included page display ran a lot faster. In several cases I had to wait about 2 minutes (EPS) instead of 10 seconds (AI) to start working on a page.

                                 

                                Uwe

                                • 13. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                  Gernot Hoffmann Level 3

                                  John,

                                   

                                  directly programmed EPS files are very small, whereas

                                  EPS by Illustrator is ridiculously blown up, even for simple

                                  tasks.

                                  Each page here is a directly programmed EPS, typically

                                  about 31kB (kiloBytes):

                                   

                                  http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/munsell15052009.pdf

                                   

                                  The colors are defined by CIELab. Gamut distances are

                                  calculated for sRGB and for a CMYK space. This requires

                                  an internal data base, derived from the ICC profile.

                                  Lines and text are defined by CMYK. All this shows the

                                  power of PostScript as a programming language.

                                   

                                  I didn't ever recommend EPS as a transfer format for arbitrary

                                  tasks.

                                   

                                  Now I hope that this permanent murmuring of the mantra

                                  'EPS is dead' will fade away gradually

                                   

                                  Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                                  • 14. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                    Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    John, that's jut nit picking at what I said. John has opened the door to what was discussed in a private message, I'll say that I wasn't particularly too interested about responding in full as it was late and I had better things to do than get into that discussion.

                                     

                                    Here's one article on what is contained in .ai and eps files http://rwillustrator.blogspot.com/2006/11/whats-in-file.html

                                     

                                    The advantages of .ai with pdf compatible are plain as day.

                                     

                                    Anyway, I've got some things to do, once again I can't reply in full. I'd say everything I posted so far is accurate. And anyone with a bit of research skills can find the books, topics, forums, blogs, etc. and research this themselves.

                                    • 15. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                      Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      John Hawkinson wrote:


                                       

                                      Eugene, you make several statements about "it is better" to save as as AI, or PDF, or TIFF, or PSD, but you don't actually say why. I think your post would be much more powerful if you explained why you thought what you think (of course, some of us might disagree with you).


                                       

                                      John, nor do you really say why you think EPS is preferred. Double standards here.

                                       

                                      Here's a link for everyone else

                                      http://www.adobe.com/print/features/psvspdf/

                                       

                                      Here's books for everyone else

                                      http://books.google.ie/books?id=LatEFg5VBZ4C&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=pdf+replacement+for+eps &source=bl&ots=tTjDaIaRjl&sig=5kSGSpHzgSlUpAyL6dDDygk1TZU&hl=en&ei=VWZTTuPeCoqnhAezqumbBg& sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=pdf%20replacement%20fo r%20eps&f=false

                                       

                                      More reasons

                                      http://www.ehow.com/info_8766185_replaces-eps.html

                                       

                                      http://pixeltherapy.net/ask-the-therapist/acrobat-and-pdf/saving-as-pdf-from-illustrator/

                                      (although I disagree about saving as PDF from Illustrator with editing capabilities, best to save as ai with PDF)

                                       

                                       

                                      I quite literally CANNOT find one source that recommends EPS over AI or PDF???

                                       

                                      I wonder why that is?

                                       

                                      Can you explain why you think EPS is better than ai or PDF? Can you point me to any online sources, or books?

                                       

                                       

                                      I've been reading a lot about this for years and keeping up with it. And nothing I've read, seen or understood ever preferred EPS over ai or PDF from Illustrator?

                                       

                                       

                                      My main reason for saving as PDF from Photoshop is that it's better than EPS in the sense that the PDF won't be flattened once reopened in Photoshop. Why go through the bother of saving a PSD and EPS (2 files) when I can save the thing as a PDF and it works flawlessly?

                                      • 16. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                        BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                        And give it a PDP extension and you can use the Edit Original command or a double click from finder/win explorer to open it back up in Photoshop.

                                         

                                        As for John's note on file size, it's pretty important to note that when saving as AI or PDF from Illustrator you're really saving two files. The AI portion and the PDF portion. I'm not going to sit here and even try to fool myself into thinking I know more about the guts of these formats but in this day and age I'll be damned if I'm going to worry about a few megabytes.

                                         

                                        Bob

                                        • 17. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                                          Clarification of what is claimed, and why we are perpetuating this conversation.

                                          John, that's jut nit picking at what I said.

                                          Sorry, I tried to make it clear, it's a nit but I think it is a very important one. Please feel free to disagree. But when we're talking about whether a file format that's important to people is doing to be supported, or is going to go away, it's very important to be clear about the public statements that have been made. Similarly, I do get bothered when EPS is described as "archaic" or "obsolete." It fills needs that are not filled by PDF or AI files, and while it is certainly older than PDF, it is of peer age to TIFF and JPEG. It is certainly less frequently used, and in many applications there are better choices (like PDF). But not in all.

                                           

                                          The issue of "double standards."

                                          John, nor do you really say why you think EPS is preferred. Double standards here.

                                          I'm sorry, but please reread my post. I do not say that "EPS is preferred." I talk about several things it can and cannot do, and explain why, for instance, it and PDF show some of the same deficiencies in InDesign's Info panel. I tell you some reasons that I like it. But I do not in fact believe that it is a "better" format most of the time, and make no such claim. It is unfair to ask me to substantiate claims I did not make. I tried to be quite careful on this one.

                                           

                                           

                                          Yes, generally PDFs are better. But.

                                          You have produced quite a link storm there, but I'm afraid they don't do a terribly clear job of explaining why these other formats are better than EPS, and for exactly which applications. If your point is to say that in general, one should not prefer EPS over PDF, then that's fine. I think it is a true statement.

                                           

                                          What bothers me about the statements in this thread (and this forum in general frequently echoed on this forum) is that it is wrong to use EPS; that EPS is obsolete; that Adobe InDesign will drop support for EPS; that EPS is archaic. That's simply not the case. It might be the wrong format for bigdrunk (it probably is; but we don't really know what he is doing). It is not the wrong format for everyone.

                                           

                                           

                                          Addressing the external links/references

                                          But we should be clear on what we're talking about. Your initial link, to Real World Illustrator's What's in a file? does a great job of describing the output formats from Illustrator. It doesn't really make a recommendation, other than to note that PDF supports some features that EPS does not. Transparency being the key point, and we've mentioned that only four times before your post. I'm not sure if that's the "plain as day" or not.

                                           

                                          Adobe's David Evans' psvspdf post similarly discusses both formats, and suggests that EPS is a replacement for PDF -- which it is. But that only gets you so far. It doesn't address the fact that PDF files can have downsides compared to EPS files (many articulated above in the thread), but really just says that PDF can do most of the things that EPS can do. That's certainly true. After all, you can put EPS files inside PDF files! But that doesn't tell you that you're better off writing to a PDF file in any particular case. To pick a few examples from above, some apps can only read EPS files and can't read PDF files. And others can generate EPS files much more easily than they can generate PDF files.

                                           

                                          I am rather apalled that you would cite eHow. They are rather notorious for giving bad advice that is not vetted by experts. In this case, though, the eHow post merely answers the question, "If an EPS file won't work, what are the alternatives?" It seems to do so correctly, but its not relevant to this discussion.

                                           

                                          Craig Kirkwood's Pixel Therapy link is more general advice, for "How should I save my Illustrator work?" And again, none of us here who are speaking up for EPS are saying that it is the preferred file for Illustrator work (though I did point out that Illustrator can produce smaller EPSs than PDFs, which is bizarre).

                                           

                                           

                                          PDF-in-AI or AI-in-PDF?

                                          (although I disagree about saving as PDF from Illustrator with editing capabilities, best to save as ai with PDF)

                                          Why do you think so? In general, they should be equivalent -- in both cases a PDF file is available to PDF-reading applications, and in both cases (and in Illustrator EPS, by the way), Illustrator private data is preserved for full Illustrator editing capability. I would say that distributing .PDF files is a better choice, because if a non-expert person receives a .ai attachment in their email, they are more likely to be confused about how to view, print or render it than they would be if they receive a .pdf file. That may not sound like the most compelling reason, but I can't think of one that is more compelling.

                                           

                                           

                                          No flat recommendation of EPS over PDF.

                                          I quite literally CANNOT find one source that recommends EPS over AI or PDF???

                                          I wonder why that is?

                                          To be honest, I think it is because there are very few experts on these file formats. You need to really understand the low-level file format to be qualified to offer an opinion on the merits of the file format by itself. And the merits of the file format aren't really the point most of the time -- what matters is the applications that you use, and how they handle it. Does a given application produce better PDF files or better EPS files. Does another application read EPS files better than it reads PDF files? Are there apps that read or write one but not the other? Is there a savings in file structure, in maintenance, in cost, in aggravation.

                                           

                                          Most of the people who write about these things are aware of the ramifications and the practical effects of the choices, but not the low-level details.

                                          Most of the time the low-level details do not matter. But they do indeed matter to some of us, and it is those of us who have spoken up in this thread.

                                          In favor of EPS, but in a limited way.

                                           

                                           

                                          Why EPS is sometimes better.

                                          Can you explain why you think EPS is better than ai or PDF? Can you point me to any online sources, or books?

                                          As we have enumerated in this thread (and the other recent one, I guess), EPS has the following potential advantages over PDF; they may not be important to you, but they are sometimes important to some of us in some cases:

                                           

                                          1. It can be easily authored by humans and tools without requiring complex tools to convert into intermediate formats (e.g. Acrobat Distiller; pstopdf or GNU Ghostscript; expensive libraries to produce PDF output);

                                          2. If appropriately written, it can produce human-readable ASCII output that can be understood by someone familiar with EPS. For programatically generated output, seeing that the code says "Draw a circle at coordinates (1 inch, 1 inch)" can be extremely valuable. In such an EPS file, that might be "1 inch 1 inch drawcircle."

                                          3. Bitmap binary data can be more efficiently JPEG encoded in EPS than in PDF. (I was not aware of this, and do not know it to be the case. But Uwe mentions it.)

                                          4. Gernot's point regarding direct CMYK specifications. I'm honestly not sure what it is, so I won't try to explain it.

                                          5. Some apps output cleaner EPS files than they do PDF files. Apparently Illustrator is one such app. Which is bizarre.

                                          6. Some applications/clients/specifications require EPS, such as the CUMULUS database.

                                           

                                          As for AI, well, as we've already said above AI and PDF are essentially equivalent, as both can contain PDF images and Illustrator private data. But EPS is certainly better than Illustrator private data because it is an open, well-documented standard. Anyone with enough time on their hands can interpret an EPS file acording to a public, published spec that's been around for years. There are free and commericial software PostScript renderers, and there are an abundance of PostScript printers. None of those things are true for AI.

                                           

                                           

                                          The rest.

                                           

                                          What's left? I think that's really about it. You've spent quite a bit of time arguing against a position I do not think anyone was adopting.

                                          • 18. The Answer & Probably More Fuel for the Fire! (Was: Info panel not displaying eps info)
                                            Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                            On behalf of Adobe Systems Incorporated:

                                             

                                            The Info Panel works as designed! The reason why “resolution information” is “missing” from the Info Panel in InDesign for EPS and for that matter PDF files is that these file formats are not raster file formats. They are containers for one or more (typically many more than one) graphical objects including text as realized via fonts, vector graphics, and raster images. Text and vector graphics have no inherent resolution and thus, it would be wrong to claim an EPS and PDF, as containers for such objects, have such a resolution. And if the EPS and PDF have multiple raster images, what would or could be displayed? Furthermore, in the case of EPS, given that PostScript is really a programming language and effectively indeterminate until executed, the resolution can effectively vary until the moment one sends the InDesign document containing the EPS to either print or to be part of a PDF export. (EPS supports access to random number generators, time of day clocks, etc. That programmability is both a feature - hackers love it - and a liability. You don't know exactly what you've got until you actually execute it.) InDesign does not try to analyze a particular PDF or EPS file to determine whether it contains a single, static raster image definition and in that case, treat it the same as a raster image file format. Conceivably that could be done with a certain amount of additional overhead, but it isn't and certainly has not officially been requested as a feature by any significant number of users if by any users at all. (Note that these forums are not the method of submitting official feature requests!)

                                             

                                            With regards to what appears to be a silly format war of EPS versus PDF ...

                                             

                                            (1)     Adobe has absolutely no intention of discontinuing support for placement of EPS graphics into InDesign documents. There are probably many billions of EPS-based digital assets in use by our customers that work perfectly fine “as-is” and we have no interest in putting any roadblock in front of our customers in terms of continued use of those assets.

                                             

                                            (2)     There are definitely situations where programmatically, it is easier to hack together a simple EPS file with simple programs to provide relatively simple placeable graphical content for InDesign documents. In the general case, producing a usable, kosher PDF file requires use of a library with significant overhead and potential cost. If EPS suits your needs, use it with Adobe's blessing!

                                             

                                            (3)     In terms of supporting placement of general graphical content from modern applications other than simple raster images, we do very strongly recommend use of PDF simply because it supports the full Adobe imaging model including all imaging that is capable of being produced by Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop, and Adobe InDesign including support for live transparency, full ICC color management, maintaining text as text realized via fonts (including support for embedded fonts), live vector data, and raster images including support for layers, spot colors, etc.

                                             

                                            (4)     For pure, simple raster images (i.e., no text layers, no shape layers, and no spot colors), it is often simpler to use either TIFF, JPEG, or PNG file formats. Note that for PNG, there is no CMYK or grayscale support and that for JPEG, there is no support for transparency (including clipped images).  And Adobe has no issue with that whatsoever.

                                             

                                            (5)     Similarly, for output, PDF is the format of choice and more specifically PDF/X-4 given its support for live transparency, color management, and layers. EPS as well as retrograde PDF versions (including PDF/X-1a and PDF/X-3) imply full knowledge of exact print device resolution and color characteristics and are not recommended for modern and reliable print publishing workflows. Having said that, we continue to support export of older, non-optimal PDF versions and EPS to accomodate less demanding content, simpler workflows, production of content to be placed into (shutter, shutter) QuarkXPress documents, and/or the demands of some portions of the print service provider community who are either not quite up on 21st century technology, have coal-powered / steam-driven workflows, and/or are Luddites at heart. But don't blame Adobe if you have problems (such as transparency stitching artifacts, color problems, etc.) due to use of these older output formats.

                                             

                                                      - Dov

                                            • 19. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                              Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                              John wrote:
                                              3. Bitmap binary data can be more efficiently JPEG encoded in EPS than in PDF. (I was not aware of this, and do not know it to be the case. But Uwe mentions it.)


                                              John,
                                              no, I think you misunderstood me at this point.
                                              Let's clarify that:

                                               

                                              Workflow 1:
                                              plain images are saved as EPS with JPEG compression maximum quality

                                              placed in InDesign

                                              pages are output to PostScript and distilled to PDF

                                               

                                              the EPS information will be handed straight to PostScript without further computation (if the distiller settings are configured right)

                                               

                                              advantage: the PostScript file is as small as possible compared to:

                                               

                                              Workflow 2:

                                              plain images are saved as TIFF with JPEG compression maximum quality

                                              placed in InDesign

                                              pages are output to PostScript and distilled to PDF

                                               

                                              the TIFF JPEG information needs massive computation and the resulting PostScript file is bloated compared to Workflow 1

                                               

                                              therefore: longer printing and distilling times as workflow 2

                                               

                                               

                                              I did not compare EPS JPEG compression with PDF JPEG compression when image data is output from PhotoShop.

                                               

                                              Uwe

                                              • 21. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                                Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                I haven't read your reply yet, John. I will though, and thanks for taking the time to post it.

                                                • 22. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                                  Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  PDF-in-AI or AI-in-PDF?

                                                  (although I disagree about saving as PDF from Illustrator with editing capabilities, best to save as ai with PDF)

                                                  Why do you think so? In general, they should be equivalent -- in both cases a PDF file is available to PDF-reading applications, and in both cases (and in Illustrator EPS, by the way), Illustrator private data is preserved for full Illustrator editing capability. I would say that distributing .PDF files is a better choice, because if a non-expert person receives a .ai attachment in their email, they are more likely to be confused about how to view, print or render it than they would be if they receive a .pdf file. That may not sound like the most compelling reason, but I can't think of one that is more compelling.

                                                   

                                                  Ok I thought you might pick up on that, I didn't have a lot of time to fully explain, busy busy.

                                                   

                                                  Even if a file generated in Illustrator is saved as PDF, with PDF editing capabilities, it's best not to open it again in Illustrator. It's ok for very simple artwork. But the more complex the artwork; transparencies, clipping masks, compound paths, etc. the more difficult it is for Illustrator to read even it's own PDF generated file.

                                                   

                                                  I always recommend saving to .ai with PDF compatible, as the .ai can then be placed in other adobe apps with a preview, and it's also fully editable.

                                                   

                                                  Despite the constant advice I hear on forums and the internet that it's ok to open PDFs in Illustrator, IT MOST definitely is not ok. Illustrator is not a PDF editing program. In any sense of the meaning.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Ok I skimmed your posts and I think we got our wires crossed.

                                                   

                                                  You are saying that it's ok to use EPS.

                                                  I fully agree. I stated that at the start. But I'm saying that if you are saving from Illustrator it's best to save as .ai with PDF compatibity. I think unless you fully know what you're doing with EPS and unless you're going to add instructions or edit the EPS then I don't think it's a great format to save files to, and ONLY for interchanging with other Adobe apps.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  I never meant to insinuate the Adobe was "only" supporting eps as a legacy format, or that it was dropping support for EPS.

                                                   

                                                  John, I agree with your sentiments that EPS is not "obsolete" or "archaic". I do agree it can have it's uses.

                                                   

                                                  But I think that going forward, that people asking about EPS files and issues they are having it's best that they use .ai with PDF compatible files from Illustrator. or PDF from Photoshop (if vector data is contained).

                                                  • 23. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                                    Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    1. It can be easily authored by humans and tools without requiring complex tools to convert into intermediate formats (e.g. Acrobat Distiller; pstopdf or GNU Ghostscript; expensive libraries to produce PDF output);

                                                    But EPS is certainly better than Illustrator private data because it is an open, well-documented standard. Anyone with enough time on their hands can interpret an EPS file acording to a public, published spec that's been around for years. There are free and commericial software PostScript renderers, and there are an abundance of PostScript printers. None of those things are true for AI.

                                                     

                                                    This is exactly why I think vice-versa on this.

                                                     

                                                    EPS files CAN be edited and manipulated by outside forces as Dov said about hackers etc.

                                                    • 24. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                                      Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      I think I explained why the info panel didn't display res very early on.

                                                       

                                                      And I think all I was saying all along was to use illustrator .ai with PDF compatible files. Or PDF from Photoshop where type layers, vector masks and vector shapes are concerned - rather than EPS.

                                                       

                                                      I'm not still convinced by John's answers as to why EPS would be better in some circumstances.

                                                      • 25. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                                        Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                                        See my point (2) above. That indeed is a situation in which EPS is better suited for what it is being used for. And if that helps a particular user with a particular use case, mazel tov! Let them use EPS for that and enjoy.

                                                         

                                                                  - Dov

                                                        • 26. Re: Info panel not displaying eps info
                                                          Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                                          I meant hacker in the positive sense!

                                                           

                                                          In any case, I think that all “sides” here have said what they needed to say several times over. Enough already!

                                                           

                                                          Take it outside!

                                                           

                                                                    - Dov