25 Replies Latest reply on Aug 21, 2011 2:52 PM by rob day

    Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf

    AutoExec_83

      Hi

       

      I'm having some problems here.

      I'm working in an indesign document that eventually will end up in a file with a size of about 24000x22500mm at 100 dpi.

      Since indesign doesnt allow that big files, I'm working in 1:10 at 1000dpi.

      I have managed to export a pdf in the appropriate size, but the problem is that I need to somehow rasterize it so that it becomes one continous image instead of consisting of a bunch of different ones as it is inside the pdf file.

      This is so that the printer that are going to print this thing on a vinyl floor doesnt crash trying to understand the file.

      Now, exporting the whole thing as a jpg doesnt work, cause windows or adobe wont allow jpg's of that size.

      I've tried spliting it in 6 or 8 equal peices with the goal of putting them back together, but that only makes indesign crash at 1000dpi. Finally I tried lowering it to 800dpi which stoped the crashing, but replaced it with a message that I dont have enough memory (I'm sporting 12GB at 2Ghz).

       

      So at the end, two questions:

      Can anything else be done in indesign?

      And is there some other program that can automaticly rasterize or at least flatten my pdf without having to open it? Can destiller be useful in this context? for some reason I dont have it..

       

      regards

      AE

        • 1. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Open the PDF in Photoshop full size at 1000 ppi, then change the image size without resampling and save as the image format of your choice.

          • 2. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
            AutoExec_83 Level 1

            Thanks, but apparently the largest size photoshop will handle is about 32500 pixels square.

            I need about three times that.

            • 3. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Can the RIP stitch images together? You could build this across a multi-page spread and rasterize in sections.

              • 4. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                AutoExec_83 Level 1

                hmm, explain RIP

                I thought about doing something like that with the artboards in illustrator, but its too heavy to open there.

                • 5. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  RIP = Rasterized Image Processor, a specialized computer for converting your files into the raster data used in the printing device for final output (prints are rasters -- they are nothing but dots).

                   

                  It's usually what drives the sort of printer that can output this type of work. You really should be talking to the output service about this, I think.

                  • 6. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    I'll take this in a new direction. Why do you need 100 ppi for something that large?

                     

                    My gut tells me that even 15 ppi should be enough.

                     

                    Bob

                    • 7. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                      AutoExec_83 Level 1

                      ah, now I'm with you.

                      Yes, that might be an option, but in that case: whats the best way of spliting it up while making sure they stitch together perfectly? I have a feeling that indesign is not very suitable for that. At best I would be able to split it in two using facing pages?

                      • 8. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                        AutoExec_83 Level 1

                        This is not for a banner ment to be viewed at a distance, but for a vinyl floor that measures 18x18 meters. It will be an orthographic photograph of an entire city in 1:400 scale, and Its vital that the quality is as good as possible since you will basicly be able to kneel down and find your own car.

                        • 9. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                          Ah...okay...interesting project for sure.

                           

                          Bob

                          • 10. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            AutoExec_83 wrote:

                             

                            ah, now I'm with you.

                            Yes, that might be an option, but in that case: whats the best way of spliting it up while making sure they stitch together perfectly? I have a feeling that indesign is not very suitable for that. At best I would be able to split it in two using facing pages?

                            Not at all. Set up as non-facing pages. Turn OFF page shuffling inthe pages panel, then drag up to 10 pages together into one spread. Work on that as a single canvas, but when you export you'll get individual pages that should mesh perfectly along the seams. Is this really going to be printed in one piece? If not add bleed during export and there will be overlap at the edges, and the installers can cut through the two layers at once for a good match.

                             

                            But as I said above, TALK TO THE PRINTER.

                            2 people found this helpful
                            • 11. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Photshop's large format .psb can handle that size. I just saved a 90000x90000 pixel blank canvas—the doc size is 22.6 GB.

                              • 12. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                AutoExec_83 Level 1

                                Thanks, this is helpful!

                                I will talk to them, but local time was 1am at the time.

                                 

                                rob: Then maybe its a conversion limit when rasterizing pdf's. The size of my document was automaticly limited to about 80cm when I typed in 1000dpi.

                                • 13. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                                  What's your linescreen?

                                   

                                  Unless you're using either monochrome images or an output device without halftones, rasterizing a grayscale or color image at 1000dpi for 1000dpi output doesn't make any sense...

                                  • 14. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Try creating a new canvas at the desired dimensions and using Edit>Place. I just tried placing a PDF on a 50000x50000 pixel canvas and it took a few minutes but worked. I only have 6gb of RAM so depending on your machine specs it should be doable if you are patient.

                                     

                                    It also might be worth having the printer run a resolution test—a section of the art rasterized at 200ppi and sampled down in 25 ppi increments so you can see where the quality break really is when you view the samples on the floor.

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 15. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                      rasterizing a grayscale or color image at 1000dpi for 1000dpi output doesn't make any sense...

                                      The idea was to print out of ID at 10x (100ppi effective res) to get past ID's size limit.

                                      • 16. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                        John Hawkinson Level 5

                                        Whoops. Yeah, somehow I lost track of that when I reread the post this

                                        morning. Right-you-are!

                                        • 17. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                          Gernot Hoffmann Level 3

                                          Autoexec,

                                           

                                          your image has a width of 22.5m (according to post #1) or 18m (post #8).

                                          Which wide format printer should be able to handle this in one piece?

                                          A rhetorical question, of course - none.

                                          Therefore, in my opinion, Peter Spier's advice in post #10 is really valuable:

                                          print pieces (strips) with bleed, in order to stich these pieces overlapping.

                                          If not handled by bleed, the stiching pattern can be designed manually.

                                           

                                          Printing a strip of about 20m length is as well a high risk.This will take

                                          some hours and requires supervision. Out of ink, paper (vinyl) jam....

                                          That's not trivial, unless the printer (the machine) uses a continuous lateral

                                          position control.

                                          It's probably worth some considerations, how to stich in length direction

                                          as well.

                                           

                                          What do you mean by 'flattening'?  Placed images can reside in the same

                                          layer - then no flattening is required.

                                           

                                          Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                                          • 18. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                            AutoExec_83 Level 1

                                            Hey guys. Woah, this really took some figuring out, but looks like I'm finally having a breakthrough thanks to all of you. Final answer was a compound one.

                                             

                                            Rob: placing the pdf's apparently doesnt have the same size limit as through conversion, so thanks for that tip. I'm still some times working as if on CS3.

                                             

                                            I still had some problems though. The Document turned out almost 90k pixels square, and apparently I didnt have enough memory to convert my pdf's at that size.

                                             

                                            Peter: thanks for the tip about multi page spreads. Had no idea you could add more than two pages to a spread.

                                             

                                            Still at 1000 dpi and divided in 10 peices though, I just didnt have enough memory to place them in photoshop. I decided to boost my system from 12 to 24GB just to see if that helped, but amazingly it didnt. Not sure it made any difference in the end, but it was something I was concidering anyway, and it cant be wrong

                                             

                                            Finally I started downsampeling from indesign to see how far I had to go before I was able to place it in photoshop, and at 800dpi, still divided in 10 peices, it finally worked. 80dpi SHOULD still be adequate for this print.

                                             

                                            So now I'm working on placing them and reconnecting them in photoshop. Seems to be working smoothly so far.

                                             

                                            Gernet: As you say, naturally no printer can print in that format. I think the maximum width is 1.98m. Length is in theory almost unlimited, but will be limited to 4-5 meters to preserve accuracy. The print will be 18x18meters plus a small entrance area, but the file is a bit larger due to the entrance area and since I dont have an exact position of the edges availible at the moment.

                                            I also talked to the printers, and they preferred it if I could deliver the file as one continuous image. Its easier if they make the plan for where the seams would be, and it would be too much back and forth if I had to get that plan from them and then try to make sections that fit with their plan.

                                             

                                            This is a pretty big and expensive order that is also starting to run short on time, so thank god it was even possible to solve in adobe and on my private system (work at an architecture office, so the office systems are not set up to handle this).

                                             

                                            Exhibition ingress: http://www.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/?module=EventCalendar;action=Event.publicOpen;ID=398;templ ate=exhibitionView_en

                                             

                                            Thanks again everyone

                                            • 19. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                              I just didnt have enough memory to place them in photoshop. I decided to boost my system from 12 to 24GB just to see if that helped, but amazingly it didnt.

                                              Did the error message say memory or scratch disk space? My primary scratch disk has 1.5 TB free—I would guess for a 20 to 30 GB file you would need 500+ GB of open disk space on your designated scratch disk(s).

                                              • 20. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                                AutoExec_83 Level 1

                                                It said memory. My scratch disk has about 850GB free space.

                                                 

                                                I found out a bit later though that I could actually push it up to almost 100dpi. Up until then I had just exported from indesign without any compression because I knew the images to be 100/1000dpi. So then it almost seems like there is something about the original pictures other than the resolution that makes it harder for photoshop to rasterize them, and that running them through compression on export somehow fixed it.

                                                • 21. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                                  AutoExec_83 Level 1

                                                  actually, scratch that. At 95dpi when I got to a couple of peices that was slightly larger than the rest, it still tells me I dont have enough RAM. seems like I'm working on the edge of what my system can handle. I've also told photoshop to use 100% of availible memory under performance settings.

                                                   

                                                  All in all though, still satisfied that I've found a solution that with some tweeking is going to work in the end.

                                                  • 22. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                    And what are your system specs? For something this large you should be using a 64 bit version of Photoshop and a boatload of RAM.

                                                     

                                                    Bob

                                                    • 23. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                      AutoExec_83 wrote:

                                                      I've also told photoshop to use 100% of availible memory under performance settings.

                                                       

                                                      That's probably a mistake. Everything I've ever read says you need to leave some RAM for other applications and the OS, and that 70% for Photoshop is the optimum. If nothing else is running, you might want to go as high as maybe 90%, but I wouldn't, myself, go higher.

                                                      • 24. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                                        AutoExec_83 Level 1

                                                        system specs are 24GB ram @ 2Ghz, 3.2Ghz Quad core processor and ofcourse photoshop 64bit version.

                                                         

                                                        When I say 100% I mean as much as photoshop will allow me to reserve, which is about 22/24GB. But for sure, when the conversion is running at max, the rest of the computer is more or less frozen. Havent had anything crash yet though.

                                                        • 25. Re: Need to flatten or rasterize gigantic pdf
                                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                          When I say 100% I mean as much as photoshop will allow me to reserve, which is about 22/24GB.

                                                          Peter's suggesting that you don't do that. There's no way you can keep the file and history in memory, so you'll be using the scratch disk no matter what. Have you tried giving Photoshop 15Gb and leaving the rest for the system? Also have you tried optimizing your History and cache setting and restarting Photoshop? Maybe set the history to 0 and the cache level to 5?