8 Replies Latest reply on Aug 29, 2011 7:12 AM by rob day

    InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages

    Nad Snilloc

      I am creating pages in InDesign CS3 using OS10 Snow Leopard that are then exported to iPhoto for inclusion in a book I'm creating. I'm extremely frustrated to see that when I import black and white images into the pages using the "Place" command, they often--although not always--appear somewhat darker on the pages than what the original image shows. I've made a practice iPhoto book and the book confirms the darkening after import. However, if I simply import a black and white picture directly into iPhoto, no darkening results. So it's in the importing process into InDesign where the problem lies. The images are ancient black and white images that have been lovingly restored in Photoshop and saved as TIFFs (although I have also imported some as JPEGS with the same darkening). They have excellent tonal ranges and density. Can anyone suggest how I might go about troubleshooting this issue? Thanks.

        • 1. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
          tman69 Level 3

          this article states that PDFs imported into iPhoto will convert the PDFs to jpegs.

           

          (not from article)--this conversion (CMYK or Grayscale to RGB) will affect the appearace

           

          http://macdevcenter.com/mac/2007/07/11/smarter-ways-to-work-with-pdfs.html

          • 2. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
            Nad Snilloc Level 1

            No, I don't think iPhoto is the problem. Over the years iPhoto has consistently reproduced very well the PDFs I send it. The problem seems to definitely be when I import the black and white image to InDesign. IPhoto is reproducing exactly what is on the InDesign page when I export it out as a PDF. So I really don't think that is the problem. Thanks.

            • 3. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              InDesign does not recognize grayscle profiles inthe same way that it recognizes RGB or CMYK. Instead, it takes the grayscale values and outputs them as part of the Black channel in the current CMYK space. This can reeult in the darkening you see.

              • 4. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
                Nad Snilloc Level 1

                Peter,

                     Thanks for the helpful information. However, I'm not sure that gets me closer to solving the problem. These are elegant images that need to be reproduced as close to the original tonal information as possible. If InDesign does not interpret grayscale values accurately, am I to conclude that I better use some other means to create my book? Are there workarounds? I tried converting the file to RGB instead of grayscale and the result was less darkening, but also an unacceptable level of tonal flattening. So IS there a way to place a grayscale image in InDesign so that the tones are reproduced faithfully? I mean, not only does the image LOOK dark, it PRINTS dark as well, as my practice iPhoto book illustrated. Thanks for the help.

                • 5. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                  There are several things here that I am confused about, and I suspect clarifying them will help lead to the answer, though they are not directly helpful.

                   

                  Why are you using iPhoto in this workflow? What is it bringing to the picture? How is it advantageous?

                   

                  How do your files get from InDesign to iPhoto? Are you exporting as PDF? If so, what PDF export preference are you using? It can make a huge difference. Have you tried High Quality Print or PDF/X-4? In particular Press Quality may cause undesirable conversions.

                   

                  What kind of TIFF, exactly? An 8bpp grayscale LZW/Packbits TIFF? TIFF only has about 2,000 different options and they can conceivably influence some of these things (but probably not).

                   

                  Do you have Overprint Preview turned on, or the various Proof Colors settings?

                   

                  Do you have any transparency in the document?

                   

                  I think that's it.

                  • 6. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    Nad Snilloc wrote:

                     

                    So IS there a way to place a grayscale image in InDesign so that the tones are reproduced faithfully? I mean, not only does the image LOOK dark, it PRINTS dark as well, as my practice iPhoto book illustrated. Thanks for the help.

                     

                    On thing that should give you an accurate preview in both Photoshop and ID is to load the black channel of the ID working CMYK space (presuming that the destination is the same as the working space) as the gray profile in your photoshop color settings.

                    LoadGray.png

                     

                    In the above screen capture the CMYK space is my printer's custom uncoated profile. I've opened the dropdown for the gray profile and selected Load Gray..., then chosen the Black Ink from the custome CMYK profile.

                     

                    I don't normally do this, however, opting instead to use either a 20% or 30% dot gain gray profile depending on the destination which seems to give me a generally faithful reproduction. I would say that the Gray Gamma profiles are not suitable for printed output, and a dot gain as low as 10% is likely to to be dark on most presses.

                    • 7. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      It looks like the recommendation from Apple on color space is RGB

                       

                      https://discussions.apple.com/message/10608850?messageID=10608850#10608850?messageID=10608 850

                       

                      CMYK and Grayscale are allowed, but if the above link is accurate it is doubtful that provided CMYK or grayscale values are output as is without further color management or conversions. It's also not clear if RGB profiles would be honored. A reasonable guess is that Apple expects sRGB to be the typical RGB space, so converting your grayscales to sRGB would be the best bet. That conversion using Edit>Convert to Profile should have no effect on tonality:

                       

                      Screen shot 2011-08-29 at 9.50.23 AM.png

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                      • 8. Re: InDesign darkens pictures imported into pages
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        There is also an sGray grayscale space included with Photoshop (Simplified sGray) which has a 2.2 gamma that matches sRGB's gamma.

                         

                        If you are using the default PS grayscale setting (20% dot gain) you'll see that assigning sGray darkens the image, which again indicates that Apple is expecting sRGB's 2.2 gamma.

                         

                        The default 20% Dot Gain:

                        Screen shot 2011-08-29 at 10.02.13 AM.png

                         

                        sGray:

                        Screen shot 2011-08-29 at 10.02.29 AM.png

                         

                        You could convert to sGray if you want to stay in grayscale for some reason.