23 Replies Latest reply on Sep 1, 2011 3:34 PM by rob day

    Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK

    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

      We are having an issue creating PDFs for prepress where we want untagged ECI profile targets to be specified as untagged (NOT SWOP or anything else). This worked in the past. I’m not sure if this is a 5.5 issue which I just upgraded couple months ago.

      All the images opened in Photoshop OR from ID show they are untagged. But depending on what we set for Export, we might see the preflight panel in Acrobat indicate they are SWOP V2.
      Here’s what I don’t understand. There are a few settings for export to PDF. The one selected (that in the past has always worked) was this:
      Embeds SWOP.jpg
      It says (Description) CMYK colors that don’t have an embedded profile are left uncalibrated. I assume that means they are left untagged. And most are. Why the ECI’s are tagged I have to figure out.
      The other pages are also TIFFs, solid colors (100% Cyan, Black etc). They don’t show up as SWOP. Strange!
      But the setting below (Include Tagged Source Profiles) exports a PDF where SWOP isn’t embedded!
      Does NOT Embeds SWOP.jpg
      Here Description says Native colors that don’t have an embedded profile are left uncalibrated. That works on all images in the ID Export.
      I also don’t know why this is now showing up unless its a bug or something new in ID5.5 which I upgraded a few months back.
      Even the ID 5.5 help says this:
      Don’t Include Profiles Does not create a color-managed document with embedded color profiles.

      Include All Profiles Creates a color-managed document. If the application or output device that uses the Adobe PDF file needs to translate colors into another color space, it uses the embedded color space in the profile. Before you select this option, turn on color management and set up profile information.

      Include Tagged Source Profiles Leaves device-dependent colors unchanged and preserves device-independent colors as the nearest possible equivalent in PDF. This is a useful option for print shops that have calibrated all their devices, used that information to specify color in the file, and are only outputting to those devices.

      Include All RGB And Tagged Source CMYK Profiles Includes any profiles for tagged RGB objects and tagged CMYK objects, such as placed objects with embedded profiles. This option also includes the Document RGB profile for untagged RGB objects.
      It seems either setting should treat the untagged ECI TIFFs as just that, untagged. Why are they tagged when exported to PDF while other documents are not?
        • 1. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          Let me add that I do need tagged RGB to show that tag in the Acrobat Preflight report. IOW, CMYK that is untagged needs to be reported as such (what appears to be called “DeviceCMYK” while RGB needs its tag.

           

          Using the Include Tagged Source Profiles, Untagged CMYK is reported correctly as such in Acrobat. But tagged RGB is reported as “DeviceRGB” which doesn’t make sense (its tagged). So this setting doesn’t work as advertised based on my limited understanding of the name and description.

           

          Sure seems like a bug.

          • 2. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            You should be able to get what you're looking for by setting your CMYK CM Policy to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or Off, and export to PDF/X-4. In that case any placed CMYK art has its embedded profile ignored and the ID doc's CMYK profie (device CMYK) is used instead, while RGB images keep their profiles. If the policy is Off the Working CMYK space is used.

             

            I'm not a heavy Acrobat user, but a quick test of a doc with a CMYK image set as Use Document Default (via Object>Image Color Setttings) and another set to a profile that is different than the doc profile, and exported via PDF/X-4 gives me what you are looking for. Using Acrobat's Touch Up Tool the image set as Use Document Default reads as Device CMYK, while the image with the conflicting profile reads as ICCBased CMYK.

             

            Keep in mind that the CM policy is set at document creation.

            • 3. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
              thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

              rob day wrote:

               

              You should be able to get what you're looking for by setting your CMYK CM Policy to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or Off, and export to PDF/X-4.

               

              I’ve tried that and all kinds of settings in Color Settings. No Go. I know ID 5.0 was fine, but 5.5? Could something have changed in the dot release?

               

              I can fix the issue after exporting the PDF using Acrobat Pro (Convert Colors, Decalibate CMYK). Then my RGB tagged data isn’t stripped. But its kind of a kludge.


              Keep in mind that the CM policy is set at document creation.

              Ah, that’s a great tip! That might be something I need to look into farther, thanks.

              • 4. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                I also find this very odd. If I open the untagged ECI target in Photoshop, due to my color settings, I get a missing profile warning. Fine. If I place the same image into an ID doc, no warning despite the color settings set for Missing Profile, ask when opening.

                • 5. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                  I’ve tried that and all kinds of settings in Color Settings. No Go....Ah, that’s a great tip! That might be something I need to look into farther, thanks.

                   

                  It's not very intuitive, but changing the policy of an open document doesn't actually change the policy—if it was built with Preserve Embedded and you change the policy to Preserve Numbers(Ignore Linked Profiles) nothing changes—linked profiles continue to be honored.

                   

                  To change a doc's policy you have to close the doc, open Color Settings and change the policy or a working space, make sure Ask When Opening is checked, and reopen the document. When you get the Policy Mismatch dialog, select Adjust the document to match color settings and set Placed Content to Disable all Profiles. When you do that all placed CMYK will be assigned the doc's profile (Document Default)

                   

                   

                                                 

                  I also find this very odd. If I open the untagged ECI target in Photoshop, due to my color settings, I get a missing profile warning. Fine. If I place the same image into an ID doc, no warning despite the color settings set for Missing Profile, ask when opening.

                   

                  With InDesign the Ask When Opening checkboxes are only referring to the assigned document profile not the embedded profiles of placed art. You set the global profile policy for placed content at document creation so there's never a conflict—profiles are either ignored or honored depending on your choice. You also have the option of setting the profile of individual images via Object>Image Color Settings...

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    rob day wrote:

                    It's not very intuitive, but changing the policy of an open document doesn't actually change the policy—if it was built with Preserve Embedded and you change the policy to Preserve Numbers(Ignore Linked Profiles) nothing changes—linked profiles continue to be honored.

                    Goofy. Certainly not how Photoshop operates. Anyway, I have the Color Settings setup, make a new document, they still don’t appear to apply. For example, I still have Missing Profile warning set. Make a new doc, Place CMYK untagged image into page, no warning.

                    Change CMYK working space from SWOP, make new doc, open untagged CMYK (assuming ID ‘thinks’ its SWOP). Profile Mismatch warning on but no such warning. Totally different from Photoshop.

                     

                    With InDesign the Ask When Opening checkboxes are only referring to the assigned document profile not the embedded profiles of placed art. You set the global profile policy for placed content at document creation so there's never a conflict—profiles are either ignored or honored depending on your choice. You also have the option of setting the profile of individual images via Object>Image Color Settings...

                    I have Color Settings for RGB set to Adobe RGB (1998). Make a new Doc. Place ColorMatch RGB, no warning. Assigned document profile and placed art are not the same, shouldn’t I get a warning? I did play with Object>Image Color Settings. In this case it shows the placed image is ColorMatch RGB and I see I could select something else (Use Document Default) or other profiles listed. Odd that if you select any profile, the preivew doesn’t update. ID sure seems color management confused to me <g>.

                    • 7. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                      Certainly not how Photoshop operates

                       

                      Right, but a Photoshop document can only have one assigned profile, while an Indesign document can have a profile assigned to the document and that document could have any number of images placed each with its own profile assigned, so there has to be a difference in the way CM is handled. ID has the extra Preserve Numbers policy which isn't applicable in PS.

                       

                      For example, I still have Missing Profile warning set. Make a new doc, Place CMYK untagged image into page, no warning.

                      To get a warning you have to have a document profile mismatch— the Ask When Opening checkboxes don't apply to place images because it's understood that you can have a document containing numerous placed images with conflicting profiles.

                       

                      To see the mismatch warning create a document with Preserve as the CMYK policy and SWOP as the CMYK Working Space, close the doc, change your CMYK working space and reopen the doc. You'll get the warning because the SWOP CMYK document assignment (Edit>Assign Profiles...) doesn't match your new CMYK working space—placed images aren't considered.

                       

                      If you set your policy to Preserve Numbers(Ignore Linked Profiles) you'll notice that all placed images show as Document Default when you select Image Color Settings. The only way to change the policy is to force the mismatch the way I described in my previous post.

                      • 8. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                        thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                        rob day wrote:

                         

                        Certainly not how Photoshop operates

                         

                        Right, but a Photoshop document can only have one assigned profile, while an Indesign document can have a profile assigned to the document and that document could have any number of images placed each with its own profile assigned, so there has to be a difference in the way CM is handled. ID has the extra Preserve Numbers policy which isn't applicable in PS.

                        True, mixing elements makes this far more complex.

                         

                        I think I have this working now, at least with new documents. If export parameters is set to No Color Conversions, Profile Inclusion policy is set to Include Tagged Source Profiles, I get tagged RGB as I need, an untagged CMYK. I have to figure out why this one legacy document exports incorrectly however. Might just have to rebuilt it from scratch. Thanks for your help!

                        • 9. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I just ran the same PDF/X-4 test (post 2) in ID5.5 and got the same result. Have you tried forcing the policy change I described on one of the problem files so that you are sure all of the embedded CMYK profiles are disabled?

                          • 10. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                            thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                            rob day wrote:

                            To get a warning you have to have a document profile mismatch— the Ask When Opening checkboxes don't apply to place images because it's understood that you can have a document containing numerous placed images with conflicting profiles.

                             

                            To see the mismatch warning create a document with Preserve as the CMYK policy and SWOP as the CMYK Working Space, close the doc, change your CMYK working space and reopen the doc.

                            Its not the profile mismatch I’m wondering about. Its the Missing Profile warning, I don’t get one. The images are untagged. I get the missing profile in Photoshop. With the newer Export settings, they work as they should on these untagged CMYK targets (Acrobat reports them as DeviceCMYK, not SWOP).

                            • 11. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Missing Profile works the same way, placed image profiles are not considered. You would only get a missing warning if the ID doc had no assigned profile, which would happen if the policy was set to Off when the doc was created.

                              • 12. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                Something is screwy here.

                                 

                                Change Color Settings to OFF.

                                Make new document.

                                Place untagged CMYK. Expect warning, get none.

                                 

                                If I’m understanding you, the color settings are per document based when that doc is created right?

                                 

                                Change Color Settings to my defaults (all warning check boxes on).

                                Make new doc.

                                Paste untagged CMYK (or Place), same with tagged RGB that isn’t the same color space as set. Expect warning, get none.

                                • 13. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  Warnings are based on current settings (you get a mismatch warning if the document space is different from the current working space), so I'm not surprised that turning management to Off would result in no warnings.

                                  • 14. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                    P Spier wrote:

                                     

                                    Warnings are based on current settings (you get a mismatch warning if the document space is different from the current working space), so I'm not surprised that turning management to Off would result in no warnings.

                                    I can’t a warning no matter the initial or subsequent settings.

                                     

                                    I’m wondering if I need to delete the ID Preferences or something.

                                    • 15. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      I think Andrew is setting his CMYK policy to Off—he's not turning his Settings to Emulate ID2 CMS Off.

                                      • 16. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                        I’m wondering if I need to delete the ID Preferences or something.

                                         

                                        I don't believe there's ever been a warning for placing or pasting images. The warning is only relative to missing or conflicting document profile assignments—the profile that manages native color.

                                         

                                        Untagged placed images are automatically assigned the ID document's assigned profile, or the current working space if there's no assignment, without any warning.

                                        • 17. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                          Then what’s the point of having the warnings?

                                           

                                          I CAN get a warning if the document is different from the working space. That’s clear and makes sense (just like Photoshop).

                                           

                                          But the Missing Profile (ask when opening) description says: When enabled and corresponding policy is not off, you will be notified whenever you open an existing doc without an embedded profile and will be given the option to Assign a color space.

                                           

                                          I *think* my misunderstanding here is that the warning applies for placed images when presumably its the ID document itself (not the images) that count here. I’m probably thinking too Photoshop image specific logic rather than entire document specific.

                                           

                                          But the bigger issue is still the export to PDF. I did get someone inside of Adobe to send me a very good matrix of all the possible Export PDF settings. There are a lot of possible permutations! The one I need for Color Conversions is clearly “No Color Conversions” but its the Profile Inclusion Policy that isn’t working as advertised.

                                           

                                          I’m told that using Include Tagged Source Profiles leaves Device RGB and CMYK untagged and it does. I’m told this setting leaves tagged CMYK and RGB as such and at least for RGB, that’s not the case. The Include ALL RGB and Tagged Source CMYK profiles settings is identical with one exception: Device RGB is tagged with Document RGB profile. And that setting gives me what I want: CMYK untagged (Device CMYK) and RGB tagged. But based on what I’m told from Adobe the two settings provide, something is still not right. A tagged RGB image placed in ID and exported each way should behave the same, tagged RGB. Yet that’s not what I get with Include Tagged Source Profiles. I end up with DeviceRGB.

                                           

                                           

                                          Ultimately I can end up with untagged CMYK in the PDF using either Include Tagged Source Profiles or ALL RGB and Tagged Source CMYK so my problems are solved. And I can end up with tagged RGB using ALL RGB and Tagged Source CMYK although its not behaving as I’m told it should (in respect to tagged RGB, just like the other setting).

                                           

                                          Now Ask When Pasting makes no sense as I’m told: When enabled, you will be notified whenver color profile mismatches occur as colors are imported into a document (via pasting, D&D et). Nope.

                                          • 18. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                            But the bigger issue is still the export to PDF.

                                            The PDF/X-4 standard is designed for your workflow. If your document's policy is Preserve Numbers..., all CMYK will export as document or deviceCMYK.

                                             

                                            If you wanted all color to be document CMYK you could also export to PDF/X-1a. In that case you have an output intent included but no profiles so the exported CMYK values will output unchanged from Acrobat.

                                            • 19. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                              Now Ask When Pasting makes no sense as I’m told: When enabled, you will be notified whenver color profile mismatches occur as colors are imported into a document (via pasting, D&D et). Nope.

                                               

                                              I don't think it works in ID. I've never seen a warning on a paste.

                                              • 20. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                rob day wrote:

                                                The PDF/X-4 standard is designed for your workflow.

                                                Yes, it provides what I want in terms of the color. Here’s what is so bloody odd. If you examine the Output area in ID for PDF/X4, it shows No Color Conversions which is clearly the first correct step. Then the Policy Inclusion is grayed out but shows Include All Profiles. IF I mimic that as a non default (custom) setting, I get a different result. According to the document I got from Adobe, the Include All Profile setting tags DeviceCMYK (untagged) with the document CMYK profile, in my case SWOP V2. Yet examine the PDF/X4 settings, its set for Include All Profiles. That’s real screwy!

                                                 

                                                One you ID beta’s needs to hammer them on this cause it sure doesn’t make any sense to me.

                                                 

                                                I still need to figure out why the Include Tagged Source Profiles which is supposed to honor an embedded RGB profile isn’t.

                                                • 21. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                  According to the document I got from Adobe, the Include All Profile setting tags DeviceCMYK (untagged) with the document CMYK profile, in my case SWOP V2. Yet examine the PDF/X4 settings, its set for Include All Profiles. That’s real screwy!

                                                   

                                                  I think the difference is that the PDF/X standard includes an Output Intent Profile Name, which by default matches your Document CMYK profile. When I export to PDF/X-4 any untagged images or images I've set to Use Document CMYK show as DeviceCMYK in Acrobat, which is what you are looking for.

                                                  • 22. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                    No question, that PDF/X-4 setting works. What’s goofy is how Adobe decides to show you the grayed out options. If you could use them that way, they would not produce the results that PDF/X-4 does.

                                                    • 23. Re: Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                      What’s goofy is how Adobe decides to show you the grayed out options.

                                                       

                                                      The PDF/X-4 standard demands that all profiles be included—if you could change the setting your PDF would no longer meet the standard. I think PDF/X-4 is pretty well thought out. It identifies the intended device via the Output Intent and at the same time keeps all the profiles—your document CMYK is recongnized as the output destination and becomes DeviceCMYK. You get your cake and eat it too.