Export to PDF, need untagged CMYK

Let me add that I do need tagged RGB to show that tag in the Acrobat Preflight report. IOW, CMYK that is untagged needs to be reported as such (what appears to be called “DeviceCMYK” while RGB needs its tag.

Using the Include Tagged Source Profiles, Untagged CMYK is reported correctly as such in Acrobat. But tagged RGB is reported as “DeviceRGB” which doesn’t make sense (its tagged). So this setting doesn’t work as advertised based on my limited understanding of the name and description.

Sure seems like a bug.

rob day wrote:

 

You should be able to get what you're looking for by setting your CMYK CM Policy to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or Off, and export to PDF/X-4.

I’ve tried that and all kinds of settings in Color Settings. No Go. I know ID 5.0 was fine, but 5.5? Could something have changed in the dot release?

I can fix the issue after exporting the PDF using Acrobat Pro (Convert Colors, Decalibate CMYK). Then my RGB tagged data isn’t stripped. But its kind of a kludge.

Keep in mind that the CM policy is set at document creation.

Ah, that’s a great tip! That might be something I need to look into farther, thanks.

I also find this very odd. If I open the untagged ECI target in Photoshop, due to my color settings, I get a missing profile warning. Fine. If I place the same image into an ID doc, no warning despite the color settings set for Missing Profile, ask when opening.

rob day wrote:

It's not very intuitive, but changing the policy of an open document doesn't actually change the policy—if it was built with Preserve Embedded and you change the policy to Preserve Numbers(Ignore Linked Profiles) nothing changes—linked profiles continue to be honored.

Goofy. Certainly not how Photoshop operates. Anyway, I have the Color Settings setup, make a new document, they still don’t appear to apply. For example, I still have Missing Profile warning set. Make a new doc, Place CMYK untagged image into page, no warning.

Change CMYK working space from SWOP, make new doc, open untagged CMYK (assuming ID ‘thinks’ its SWOP). Profile Mismatch warning on but no such warning. Totally different from Photoshop.

With InDesign the Ask When Opening checkboxes are only referring to the assigned document profile not the embedded profiles of placed art. You set the global profile policy for placed content at document creation so there's never a conflict—profiles are either ignored or honored depending on your choice. You also have the option of setting the profile of individual images via Object>Image Color Settings...

I have Color Settings for RGB set to Adobe RGB (1998). Make a new Doc. Place ColorMatch RGB, no warning. Assigned document profile and placed art are not the same, shouldn’t I get a warning? I did play with Object>Image Color Settings. In this case it shows the placed image is ColorMatch RGB and I see I could select something else (Use Document Default) or other profiles listed. Odd that if you select any profile, the preivew doesn’t update. ID sure seems color management confused to me <g>.

rob day wrote:

 

Certainly not how Photoshop operates

 

Right, but a Photoshop document can only have one assigned profile, while an Indesign document can have a profile assigned to the document and that document could have any number of images placed each with its own profile assigned, so there has to be a difference in the way CM is handled. ID has the extra Preserve Numbers policy which isn't applicable in PS.

True, mixing elements makes this far more complex.

I think I have this working now, at least with new documents. If export parameters is set to No Color Conversions, Profile Inclusion policy is set to Include Tagged Source Profiles, I get tagged RGB as I need, an untagged CMYK. I have to figure out why this one legacy document exports incorrectly however. Might just have to rebuilt it from scratch. Thanks for your help!

rob day wrote:

To get a warning you have to have a document profile mismatch— the Ask When Opening checkboxes don't apply to place images because it's understood that you can have a document containing numerous placed images with conflicting profiles.

 

To see the mismatch warning create a document with Preserve as the CMYK policy and SWOP as the CMYK Working Space, close the doc, change your CMYK working space and reopen the doc.

Its not the profile mismatch I’m wondering about. Its the Missing Profile warning, I don’t get one. The images are untagged. I get the missing profile in Photoshop. With the newer Export settings, they work as they should on these untagged CMYK targets (Acrobat reports them as DeviceCMYK, not SWOP).

Something is screwy here.

Change Color Settings to OFF.

Make new document.

Place untagged CMYK. Expect warning, get none.

If I’m understanding you, the color settings are per document based when that doc is created right?

Change Color Settings to my defaults (all warning check boxes on).

Make new doc.

Paste untagged CMYK (or Place), same with tagged RGB that isn’t the same color space as set. Expect warning, get none.

P Spier wrote:

 

Warnings are based on current settings (you get a mismatch warning if the document space is different from the current working space), so I'm not surprised that turning management to Off would result in no warnings.

I can’t a warning no matter the initial or subsequent settings.

I’m wondering if I need to delete the ID Preferences or something.

Then what’s the point of having the warnings?

I CAN get a warning if the document is different from the working space. That’s clear and makes sense (just like Photoshop).

But the Missing Profile (ask when opening) description says: When enabled and corresponding policy is not off, you will be notified whenever you open an existing doc without an embedded profile and will be given the option to Assign a color space.

I *think* my misunderstanding here is that the warning applies for placed images when presumably its the ID document itself (not the images) that count here. I’m probably thinking too Photoshop image specific logic rather than entire document specific.

But the bigger issue is still the export to PDF. I did get someone inside of Adobe to send me a very good matrix of all the possible Export PDF settings. There are a lot of possible permutations! The one I need for Color Conversions is clearly “No Color Conversions” but its the Profile Inclusion Policy that isn’t working as advertised.

I’m told that using Include Tagged Source Profiles leaves Device RGB and CMYK untagged and it does. I’m told this setting leaves tagged CMYK and RGB as such and at least for RGB, that’s not the case. The Include ALL RGB and Tagged Source CMYK profiles settings is identical with one exception: Device RGB is tagged with Document RGB profile. And that setting gives me what I want: CMYK untagged (Device CMYK) and RGB tagged. But based on what I’m told from Adobe the two settings provide, something is still not right. A tagged RGB image placed in ID and exported each way should behave the same, tagged RGB. Yet that’s not what I get with Include Tagged Source Profiles. I end up with DeviceRGB.

Ultimately I can end up with untagged CMYK in the PDF using either Include Tagged Source Profiles or ALL RGB and Tagged Source CMYK so my problems are solved. And I can end up with tagged RGB using ALL RGB and Tagged Source CMYK although its not behaving as I’m told it should (in respect to tagged RGB, just like the other setting).

Now Ask When Pasting makes no sense as I’m told: When enabled, you will be notified whenver color profile mismatches occur as colors are imported into a document (via pasting, D&D et). Nope.

rob day wrote:

The PDF/X-4 standard is designed for your workflow.

Yes, it provides what I want in terms of the color. Here’s what is so bloody odd. If you examine the Output area in ID for PDF/X4, it shows No Color Conversions which is clearly the first correct step. Then the Policy Inclusion is grayed out but shows Include All Profiles. IF I mimic that as a non default (custom) setting, I get a different result. According to the document I got from Adobe, the Include All Profile setting tags DeviceCMYK (untagged) with the document CMYK profile, in my case SWOP V2. Yet examine the PDF/X4 settings, its set for Include All Profiles. That’s real screwy!

One you ID beta’s needs to hammer them on this cause it sure doesn’t make any sense to me.

I still need to figure out why the Include Tagged Source Profiles which is supposed to honor an embedded RGB profile isn’t.

No question, that PDF/X-4 setting works. What’s goofy is how Adobe decides to show you the grayed out options. If you could use them that way, they would not produce the results that PDF/X-4 does.