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Use the WD for backup, leave your OS as it is, use the Vertex for pagefile, mediacache and previews and get two 7200 conventional SATA disks in raid0 for media and projects and another SATA disk for exports. You can use the WD for backups of your media and projects.
Thanks for your quick answer.If I use a western digital (variable rpm) 1TB and a Samsung 7200rpm 1TB HDD for raid 0, will working fine or it colud be a problem the different maker type?And where should I store the project files (prproj and after effects aep)?
Also on the Vertex ssd?
ONLY use 7200 RPM disks or faster, no green or eco models. I suggest Samsung Spinpoint F3 1 TB models. Great performance and a great price. For a raid never mix models or brands.
And not better If I buy another SSD instead of RAID 0 2pcs hdd?For media cache and previews? (I know its more expensive) I just want to know there is no big difference in the performance of Premiere (and After effects) If I use a fast ssd or a RAID0 7200rpm HDD?
Look here and see for yourself: http://ppbm5.com/DB-PPBM5-2.php
We haven't found any performance difference between SSD's and conventional disks, only huge price differences. For the moment SSD"s are only good in emptying your wallet quickly.
Thanks!Tomorrow Im put to sell out my different type hdd-s and Im going to buy 2pcs spinpoint f3.:-)
I think this is a good value solution.
Hi Harm, I have a similar question and would appreciate your thoughts. I'm about to purchase a laptop which I'll be using for mobile video editing for 1080p movies from my Sony HDR520V. I may purchase a 3D camcorder within the next year as well. I can add on an external hard-drive for storage and backup using esata or usb 3 later. I'm about to purchase a Clevo P170HM system (not for gaming, mostly for video editing) with the following specs:
17.3" 1920 x 1080 Full HD (16:9) LED Display Matte Type 120Hz 3D Ready (in case I decide to do any 3d video editing down the road)
New! Intel Core i7-2760QM Processor, 2.4 GHz (Max Turbo Frequency 3.5GHz), 6MB Smart Cache
16GB, PC3-10600/1333Mhz DDR3 - 4 x 4GB
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 485M w/2GB GDDR5
256GB Crucial M4 SATA III Solid State Drive
500/7200rpm GB Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid Drive w/4G SSD Memory SATA-300 (SATA II 3GB/s)
Windows 7 Professional Edition 64-bit
6x Max. Blu-Ray Writer/Reader / 8x Max. DVD±R/2.4X Max. +DL Super-Multi Drive
So my first question is also hard drive set up. I've heard while the Momentus XT is good for boot speed, its sustained throughput is nowhere near SSD. I'm pretty much at the peak of my budget with this set up but might be worth it to push it a tad and replace the momentus XT with a second SSD. I can do the following options:
1. Leave things alone as above
2. 256GB Crucial M4 as primary OS drive and 160GB Intel 320 Series Sata II SSD as secondary (on which I would probably do the video rendering)
3. 160GB Intel 320 Series Sata II SSD as primary OS and 300GB Intel Series II SSD as secondary (on which I would probably do video rendering)
Once I get the final edited product, I'd burn it to blu-ray or move it to a backup external hard drive. I heard I should have a large HD for OS as scratch files and temp files would be used on that hard drive for video editing but I thought I could configure it to have this done on the secondary HD. Currently I am using Win XP on my old desktop and my windows and program files takes only 22GB so I thought 160GB for the primary OS would be fine.
Second question: I read the more read/write cycles on a SSD drive, the shorter its lifespan. Not sure if this is as true nowadays with better algorithms on SSDs. I heard having a page file on an SSD is definately a bad idea. I would assume then rendering of video on an SSD (and any temp files) is also a bad idea. Is this true and if so then does it make more sense to stick with my original configuration keeping the 7200rpm momentus XT as the video drive?
I appreciate any input on the hard drive configuration (or for that matter any advice on the set up in general as I'm about to sink $2800 into it!). Thanks.
I'm sure that Harm will see this and comment, but I'll comment as well. My suggestions below are all intended to provide increased performance while staying right around the price-point that you were at already.
Graphics: go with GTX 560M instead; cooler, less expensive, and it will get the job done.
RAM: definitely pay the small extra for 1.5V RAM; could consider going with 1600MHz CAS9 RAM as well
Boot drive/OS/Programs: go with smaller Crucial (128GB); this will privide a wonder laptop "PC experience", but adding more is not a value proposition at your price-point (and probably slower than rotating drives unless you are getting the most expensive and latest models like Bill is testing)
2nd internal drive: VERY important! Choose 7200rpm drive; if I were you, I think I'd pick WD 750GB/16MB cache
external drive: DEFINITELY go eSATA! I just love the G-RAID 1TB mini (small, light, quiet, fast - uses 2x500GB 2.5" laptop drives in a RAID 0 configuration), but it does require an external power source (unless the Clevo has a powered firewire 400 port - I don't know if it does or not). Other options would be whatever you choose in single drive 2.5" (self powered) or 3.5" (bigger, heavier, definitely needs to plug into a wall socket)
Why GTX 560M over 485M? I thought more CUDA cores would help with video editing. Also I wanted to have 3D support (in case I did 3d video editing later and I don't think 560M would support that but not sure).
Also why would you choose a 750GB 7200rpm HD for secondary instead of Seagate Momentus XT 500GB? Simply b/c the space or is the Momentus XT too slow for some reason? You don't think an SSD as a secondary would be way faster for video rendering? Also how about the idea of a gigantous (well for what I can afford) SSD - like 300GB to do both OS and video rendering? I read other forums and it looks like some people are thinking SSDS are so fast that there is no need to use a secondary drive for video editing.
Thanks for the comments.
Sorry to be late in answering you, but here we go.
As Jim remarked, nice notebook. Why would anyone suggest the 560M over the 485M? It has less cores, but it runs cooler and is more energy efficient and in practice you will be hard pressed to notice any performance difference between the two cards. Probably the 485M is slightly faster, but only marginally.
A SSD is a good idea in a notebook for the boot disk. A hybrid disk like the Momentus XT, using both conventional parts and a small SSD does not deliver great performance. In tests it was disappointing and no faster than mediocre disks and certainly slower than modern conventional desktop disks.
Up to now we have not seen any benefits from using SSD's only. About the only thing they were good for was in emptying your wallet very quickly. Don't forget that the claimed transfer rates are often a myth, because the tests used for these claims are not realistic in daily life. For instance the OCZ Vertex2 claims a W speed of 480+ MB/s, but in practice it is often no more than 80 MB/s, especially if it has been in use for some time. That is less than most conventional disks achieve today.
There is no doubt that technical developments leads to significant improvements and prices are coming down, so the point at which SSD's are a very good alternative for conventional disks is coming nearer, but IMO not yet.
Just the other day I gave someone the option to choose between 8 TB of net space for € 400 with conventional disks or 2 TB of net space for € 3000 with SSD's. That is a factor 30x more expensive per GB for SSD's. In both cases the sustained transfer rate is the same, limited by the bus but still over 1100 MB/s.
Claims that SSD's are so fast you only need one, or maybe two, can apply to gamers, but certainly not to video editors. There is just too much disk activity going on, to make that an option. Furthermore Bill Gehrke has found erratic behavior when using the latest generation SSD's. Disk I/O tests on the first runs were impressive (53 seconds), but then after multiple runs the results dropped off significantly by around 60% to 80+ seconds, confirming that even the latest generation SATA3 SSD's with the latest Sandforce chips suffer from W degradation. To avoid this a secure erase is necessary and that of course defeats the benefits of SSD's and is a huge problem in notebooks.
I have a new HP Z800 with 4 7200rpm 500GB SATA hard drives. HP recommended a RAID 5 configuration including all 4 drives. My primary use is Premier Pro CS 5.5. Is there another RAID configuration that would be significantly better? And if so, in what way better?
First, get a smallish separate disk for OS & programs, something like a Samsung Spinpoint F4 320 GB. Then use the 4 disk raid5 if you have a dedicated raid controller, but if you only have the ICHR10 chip, you may be better off with two 2-disk raid0 arrays, provided you have solid and reliable backups.
HP's recommendations for that 4-disk setup are correct - but only if it's run off of a discrete PCI-e x8 hardware RAID controller with its own dedicated cache memory. Intel's ICH10R (or any other software-controlled onboard RAID controller) is horrible at anything beyond RAID 0/1/01/10 operation (in particular, RAID 5 on the ICH is four to five times slower than a single disk in the AVI / Disk I/O portion of the PPBM5 benchmark tests).
Thanks for the prompt response. The controller is labeled as Intel ICH8R/ICH9R/ICH10R/5 Series/3400 Series SATA RAID Controller.What about a separate OS HD plus a RAID 0 pair plus a RAID 5 pair?
Thanks for the prompt response. The controller is labeled as Intel ICH8R/ICH9R/ICH10R/5 Series/3400 Series SATA RAID Controller. Would installing a hardware controller be the best solution or is there another arrangement of the existing system that would be comparable in editing performance?
Adding a PCI-e hardware RAID controller is the best solution if you're going to use RAID 5. However, this solution is not cheap: The appropriate hardware SAS/SATA RAID controller card costs well over $500, and can be priced into the thousands of dollars. And the very cheap SATA RAID cards are not sufficiently faster than the onboard RAID to justify the cost.
Thanks for the reply Harm.
So to clarify an SSD for a boot disk would be a good idea in a notebook but not for the 'work disk' where there is a lot more disk activity? I'm assuming then the degredation you spoke of on even modern SSDs would not be as much of an issue on a boot disk where I hopefully won't constantly be installing and uninstalling programs - is this correct? If so do you think I could get away with a 120GB or 160GB SSD instead ofa 256GB?
So then I have to look for a good performing 7200rpm HD for a secondary disk. If you can give me any specific recommendations, that would be very helpful. If I go with a different company, AVADirect, I can choose from these Hard Drives:
Samsung Spinpoint MP4 (7200) or other M7 or M8 (5400)
Western Digital Scorpio Black WD7500BKPT 7200rpm
Toshiba MK5061GSYN 500GB 7200
All are 3Gb/sec.
If I switch my Clevo P170HM to Clevo X7201 can actually have 1 OS drive and 2 additional hard drive's in RAID 0 (but would have to sacrifice a blu-ray burner due to additional cost) but in that system instead of having a 2760QM processor I'd have core i7-950 processor (or I could upgrade to i7-970 hex core). I'd lose a 3D capable screen which I think I need? if I want to 3D editing later but not sure. In both cases I'd store my final exported video to an external drive.
So for my budget, I could afford either of these systems:
1. P170HM3DE (Intel® HM67)
- 17.3" Full HD (1920x1080) 3D Matte LED LCD display
- 2760QM CPU (which is the upgraded 2720QM CPU)
- 16GB RAM
- 1 SSD + 1 7200rpm HD
- GTX 485M GPU
2. X7201(Intel X58)
- 17.3" Full HD Glossly Display (?not sure if this is 3D)
- i7-950 processor or upgrade to i7-970 which has 6 cores
- 12GB RAM (this is the max I could get)
- 1 SSD + 2 7200HD in RAID 0
- GTX 560M GPU (could upgrade to ATI 6990)
*** for my budget could get a (i7-950 with ATI 6990 GPU) OR (i7-970 with GTX 560M GPU)
After scouring the internet the only data I could find to compare performance b/t i7-970 and i7-2720qm were two benchmarks:
both seem to give the i-970 the edge, but I have no idea how relevant these benchmarks would be for HD video editing. Anyone have any input on this?
So...which would you pick for what I'd like to accomplish for video editing?
I know this is a ton of info. Thanks once again for your input. Look forward to your thoughts.
I would choose option 1 because of the much nicer screen and the 16 GB RAM. It is not as fast as an i7-970, but then the combo 970/12 GB diminishes that advantage. With these two choices, I would opt for the better screen, because I do not like glossy screens. Even though I'm not convinced that 3D will be a realistic and feasible issue in the next three years, due to the fact that there are no reasonable 3D TV's available yet (I have a top end 3D LG TV and it is unwatchable IMO), so there is not yet a good delivery format, option 1 gives you that possibility.
The Scorpio Black has a very good reputation. I'm not familiar with the Samsung. Just make sure it is a 7200 RPM disk.
Thanks Harm and Jim for all the feedback. I did some tweaking based on your recommendations and those of others in different posts on the adobe forums.
Good news is that I found a dealer, Mythlogic, that lets me customize my laptop in more precise ways and put in specific components that others would not allow among which, the most useful is to allow 3 hard drives thus allowing me to do a RAID 0 array. Mythlogic said they'd allow me to put a hard drive in place of an optical drive (making it HD #3) and set up a RAID 0 with HD #2 & #3. So I get to keep my 2720QM processor and 16GB and still get to set up a RAID 0.
The sales guy (who seemed competent) recommended I stick with a NVIDIA card instead of ATI 6970 or 6990 as it would be better for Premiere Pro - anyone have any thoughts on this? And since the GTX 580M is only $45 more than the 485M I thought that might be the way to go. I know the feedback here was that 560M would be almost as good as 485M - is the same true for 560M vs 580M with my current configuration, i.e., am I wasting money getting either 485M or 580M over 560M with my current config for HD (and in the future possibly 3D) video editing? I realize your skepticism on the 3D editing Harm
Also anyone have any thoughts of a 120GB SSD vs a larger one? Salesperson thought I'd be fine. And I'm figuring WIN 7 = 20GB, program files perhaps another 40GB, with the drive formatted perhaps I'd get 105GB so hopefully I should be okay.
Here is my current config:
Mobile Chassis MYTHLOGIC Nyx 1711 Chassis (Clevo P170HM)
Mobile Display 17.3" Full HD (1920x1080) 120Hz Matte LED Backlit LCD, and NVIDIA 3D Vision Glasses Kit Bundle
CPU Intel Core i7-2720QM 2.20GHz, 1600MHz DDR3, 6MB Cache, Socket G1 Mobile Processor
Thermal Compound Free IC Diamond Thermal Compound
System Memory 16GB (4 x 4GB) , PC3-12800, 1600MHz SODIMM (Patriot) Quad-core processors ONLY!
Video Adapter NVIDIA GTX 580M 2048MB GDDR5 DX11 Compliant Video Card
Optical Swap Out Optical drive for additional Hard Drive
Hard Drive 1 Crucial 128GB M4 Series SATA III 6.0GB/sec Solid State Drive
Hard Drive 2 500GB 7200 16MB Cache SATA Notebook Hard Drive
Hard Drive 3 500GB 7200 16MB Cache SATA Notebook Hard Drive
Webcam Integrated 2M Webcam
Fingerprint Reader Integrated Fingerprint Reader
Network Card Onboard Gigabit (10/100/1000 Mbits/sec) LAN subsystem
Wireless Card KILLER WirelessN 1102 the best wireless gaming and HD video experience Back to School FREEBIE
Bluetooth Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR USB Adapter Back to School FREEBIE
Operating System Windows 7 Professional
Wish me luck!
Sounds like a super laptop, with the Crucial M4 (128 G is more than enough) and the 580M. It would be very hard to improve on that, unless you really spend much more money to go for the 29xxQM CPU.
Any opinions if I will see appreciable differences in video editing with 580M vs 560M for this set up? I think I can view 3D movies on each of them fine.
Great configuration - good luck indeed!
Can't wait to see how it runs PPBM5; Can't see why it would not be the best laptop score to date, especially if you add an external eSATA drive for media cache and render outputs.
In future versions of PR the optimizations in CUDA support may make a bigger difference, but currently it is only marginal.
Got it. Well I could save a significant amount of money in just getting 560M so I'd have to decide if its worth it to spend the money to future proof this computer.
I read over your thread on best storage set up and I have a question about the particularly limited set up I have having a latptop with 2 drives. You mentioned one should have media, projects, previews and exports, and one should have OS and Media Cache. Would the same advise be true for my set up with primary drive being SSD - given what you had mentioned about degredation, I/O errors after a while, and what I had read about trying to avoid a lot of read/write cycles? Perhaps I should leave the SSD as just the OS drive and for program files (I would not need a page file with SSD and I read it is not advised), and use the other RAID 0 array for everything else. If so would that slow things down significantly compared to your recommended set up in your thread?
Thanks again Harm.
Harm, gave this more thought after my last reply, and I have another idea.
What if C: was OS/Program files, and instead of a D: with a RAID 0 array with two 7200rpm hard disks containing all the media, projects, previews, exports, and media cache, I went with a D: with one 7200rpm HD and E: with one 7200rpm HD and split media up b/t D: & E: as in your thread on Generic HD set up? Would the latter set up be faster just b/c it is more evenly split or is RAID 0 better? This is assuming I don't use my C: for anything media to avoid unnecessary write/rewrite cycles.
I know you couldn't give me percentages, but could you rate these scenarios with mild, moderate, or significant speed advantages?
SSD as OS/program/media cache (I'd have to opt for a larger SSD in this case)
D: with RAID 0 with two 7200rpm HDs with rest of : media, projects, previews, exports
SSD as OS/program files
D: with RAID 0 with two 7200rpm HDs with all of media work
SSD as OS/program files
D: with one 7200rpm HD with media cache
E: with one 7200rpm HD s with rest of : media, projects, previews, exports
SSD as OS/program files
D: with one 7200rpm HD
E: with esata with RAID 0 with two 7200 HDs
splitting media work b/t D & E
Thanks very much.