1 2 3 Previous Next 99 Replies Latest reply on Dec 6, 2011 12:06 PM by Glitchdog Go to original post
      • 80. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
        shooternz Level 6

        Full-screen video being sent out of Premiere seems to go through the Desktop, i.e., "NOT VIDEO" pipeline.  I think this may be the entire problem I am encountering and explains why video playing full-screen via WMP looks terrific while the same video playing from within Premiere is washed-out due to the black level being raised. 

         

        Is this coincident with others' observations?

         

        Pete

         

        FWIW: Pete, I do not observe  a washed out effect in my second monitor.

         

        Real wild shot here!  Does your monitor have any kind of automatic adjustment (ie senses the room brightness and adjusts brightness / contrast)  I am aware that is not consistent with the test you have been running but still worth checking.

        • 81. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
          PeteGould Level 1

          shooterns - while the monitor DOES have such an ability, it is shut off in the menu options, and I have verified that it shut off both by looking there and by observing that room light has no effect on the monitor display.  Besides, I can do this comparison quickly and reliably: load the same video clip in WMP and Premiere and toggle between them.  Black level is raised in Premiere and not in WMP on the very same clip.  Can't imagine how the monitor would have anything to do with it.  If you could take a moment to indulge me and use the NVidia control panel to temporarily take control of the color space for full-screen Premiere playback on your second monitor, I'd be really interested to hear if the active controls are for video or desktop graphics.

           

          Pete

          • 82. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
            shooternz Level 6

            WIll get back to you on that one Pete once I go in to the studio today.

            • 83. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
              artistdomain Level 1

              Hi Mediamajic,


              I guess I am a bit confused about your particular siutation; let me put it that way. i concede that I only know my set up and what I've been reading over the years.

               

              Here's what I think I've learned:

               

              All straight VGA cards in computers are already RGB output unless they are specifically designed to also output a true rec 709 video signal (Doesn't Nvidia make some cards that offer both? I have not looked; I have no need)   

               

              Even if you don't shoot with an RGB capable camera you can still do a pro-level reliable YUV to RGB conversion in Premiere 5 and the reasons for doing that are obvious to pros, especially if doing more than basic, primary color correction and also apparent if doing pro-level graphics compositing where color is critical, as in adverstising. I do believe Adobe has added the YUV yo RGB conversion so that people can use PC monitors for accurate playback. Adobe's RGB is fairly close to rec 709 (from what I understand, probably close enough unless you are in Hollywood)

               

              However, keep in mind that even if a VGA card has an HDMI output, it may be no more than a replacement for the DVI.(It may not output a rec 709 video signal.) Unlike HDMI, DVI doesn't carry audio. A  company like Nvidia can make a graphic card like the one you desire and have it also supply audio on the same card. As I understand it an Nvidia Quadro 4000 can power a Dreamcolor, which is really just a highly sophisticated computer monitor but still a progressive RGB monitor - as is a standard VGA card.      

               

              As for your subscribers on Youtube: that seems like it would be an all-progressive, all-RGB workflow completely in alignment with the viewers' computer monitors. But if you are externally monitoring your timeline on an HDTV and interlacing it, is that not working at odds for what Youtube viewers will see? Does production for Youtube really require anything beyond using your your program monitor widow? What you see there what your YT viewers will also see, no? (aside from compression before uploading of course)     


              You said re your monitor: "Yes it can go into an interlaced mode and display 60 fields per second."  What model is this? If it's an LCD or plasma, it'll be progressive. It will intenally de-interlace any interlaced signal fed to it. There is no such thing as 60fps if interlaced. I assume you mean if you display a 720 60p image. 

               

              You said:  "... text will look blotchy..."  That's because the text is being dynamically generated from code by Windows whereas text in a video environment is a rasterized image. Very different and that problem is only to be expected. By the way, Aero is largely about text generation and display in a windows environment. Shutting it off can allow the computer resources required for it to be used for other things in the system.  But having it on or off does not improve displaying text more clearly in your HDTV, does it?         

               

              You said "You get a color shift and the text will look blotchy if you try to use it to display software on the monitor." That's because you are supplying a non-rec 709 signal to a rec 709 HDTV.

               

              I don't see why the card manufacturers cannot and will not make the cards that do what the orignal poster seeks. I won't expect Adobe to do it. They are working closely with Nvidia and I'll bet that day comes. It will output a progressive RGB signal as they all do now on HDMI and/or Displayport  It'll conform to rec 709 on its external monitoring output. It'll answer the prayers of the people on this thread. Heck I won't be suprised if Nvidia doesn't begin making motherboards just for video editors. 

               

              But you won't hear me complaining about how we shouldn't have to spend money on additional gear because Adobe doesn't offer such a capability it built-in. I've been happy to get this far and have the external monitoring that's available with Matrox, BM, Aja. The extra hardware I've had to buy all paid for itself over and over again.


              Sorry to seem to have made you feel on the defensive. I'm really responding with my thoughts to the original poster and adding my two cents re the question re monitoring with current VGA cards. I apologize for "shooling anyone".

               

              Finally, to answer your last question: No, except to Premiere's program monitor window. No VGA cards I'm a aware of could output a rec 709 signal and my work began in the interlaced NTSC days of SD output onto DVDs.      

              • 84. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                medeamajic Level 2

                PeterGould,

                 

                There are a lot of things that could be tweaked in your Nvidia control panel. You may also have a different set of drivers. My sytems works great in Classic mode but in Aero mode it sucks. You may or may not have the same results with your system. Your MOBO, CPU, Chipset, system settings and OS will all have an impact.  Adobe's Karl Soule stated the HDMI should be pretty acurate for color correction in an interview. It may not be he best solution but it should not look like total bunk either. More than likely you will have to trouble shoot it yourself. Perhaps some other software on your system messed up the Nvidia settings.

                • 85. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                  shooternz Level 6

                  Shooternz, you said you use the Dreamcolor. I think I'll probably get one myself. It requires a true progressive RGB signal to work properly, which my new MXO2 mini can supply. But it can also take a Displayport connection from a VGA card which also, by neccesity, supplies a progressive, RGB signal. I assume you are connecting your Dreamcolor thusly if you are not using a third-party I/O card like BM or Matrox to drive it. What card are you using?

                   

                   

                  Card is a Quadro FX3800

                  I think that Dave may use the Display Ports to drive the Dream Color when he comes in... although I have heard him mention EIDD Managed ports. (DV-I) I just dont really know what he does.  Maybe he loops thru.  He is not around to ask. He is a freelancer.

                   

                   

                  @ Pete

                   

                  I'd be really interested to hear if the active controls are for video or desktop graphics.

                   

                  Just checked...Not sure how or where I see that info in the Nvidia control panel.  I note that I have set the card to use the applications to control color space (ie NOT Nvidia Control). The Video and Image Setting  is also set to "Player" and not Nvidia.

                   

                  I also note there are a lot of settings specific to the card  eg Card is HDCP capable  and utilises Pure Video Technology

                  • 86. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                    artistdomain Level 1

                    Hi Shooternz,

                     

                    That Quadro FX 3800 has Displayports (x2) and 1 DVI (any two outputs are active at a time but not all three)  Your card would seem to be all that is needed to supply a Dreamcolor with the progressive RGB signal it requires to operate at it's full potential. I have not heard about anyone else driving a Dreamcolor with only a VGA card though. That may be because, for many editors, I/O capability is needed anyway and an I/O box would supply some kind of connection to whatever monitor they use (HDMI, Displayport, Component). And then they'd still have at least 2 GUI monitor outputs on their VGA card. Having said that, not all I/O boxes output an RGB signal. Nothing by BM does currently.

                     

                    How do you get video in and out of your system?

                     

                    DVI is limited to 8 bit and the dreamcolor is 10bit so DVI would be a waste of 2 thousand bucks, in my opinion. And DVI doesn't suppor the monitor's capability of 1:1 pixel mapping and scaling to reduce motion artifacting in compositing. Converting the DVI to HDMI would allow that but still not get you the 10 bits needed to make full use of the Dreamcolor. Your card, however is 30bit ((10bit per color channel) and capable of driving the Dreamcolor fully.

                    • 87. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                      medeamajic Level 2

                      Artistdomain,


                      Some cards can interlace and even out put  RGB, Ycbcr and YUV. The VGA ports will not give you those options but other ports will.  We are not even talking about the benifits of RGB over YUV so stop talking about them. I know RGB is better than YUV but it also requires more band width to push the RGB signal. That is why YUV signals were used for broadcast back in the day and video cameras made use of YUV color space. I am not arguing about RGB VS YUV.  I am only stating YUV is still used in many cameras. I am not saying it is better. Comprende?

                       

                      My old Nvidia GT 7300 video card allowed me to out put 720 X 480i YUV to an old tubestyle TV if I tweaked it out. The previews were much better than using the standard 800 X 600 computer resolution for SD DV-25 video clips when using Premiere Pro SC3. I also stated that when using S-Video or even analogue composite Nvidia's older cards gave you more options than what you would get with VGA connector. It is true.  VGA is realy only for computer connections but that is not true with S-Video out and even HDMI out.  You are also wrong about HDMI not sending audio. I can get audio out using a DVI to HDMI converter. DVI does infact have audio now. Why can't you just watch my videos and realize I know what I am talking about? I am not saying using an HDMI port with Premiere Pro is perfect for client previews. I am only trying to show people how to get the best settings for this method. If you have a better method for using the HDMI port of your video card let us know.

                       


                      What I stated in the youtube videso is true. Depending on your video clips using 1280X720p might be your best bet. I never told anyone to select an interlaced or progresive mode. It depends on what they want to do. They can set it up for 720 X 480i if they want to. Why not use 720X480i if you want the best RT preview for DV-25? DV-25 is interlaced. The old Nvida S-Video analogue ports displayed 720X480i perfect.

                       


                      You claim I stated 60 fps. I stated 60 fields per scecond not frames. If you are going to post on this thread you should know that 60 fields per second is interlaced. Two interlaced fields make the frame. Like I said PP CS 5.5 allows you to preview seperate fields to avoid interlacing issues on external monitors. As far as the text and software GUIs not looking good when using interlaced you now seem to agree but you had stated that VGA cards will not output interlaced. I stated in my video not to use an intelaced TV mode unless you need to match your video clips for previews in Premiere Pro. I did not state to use it for displaying the GUI. Yes I know why the text looks blotchy and why color shift happens when using a HDTV mode when running software on it. You are not telling me anything new but you stated VGA video cards can not output interlaced video. 

                       


                      I don't understand your posts at all. Did I say everything is perfect with CS5.5? As Adobe's Karl Soule stated the HDMI realtime previews are very good but not perfect. If Adobe can gives us better realtime previews using the video card I am all for that. Where did I say other wise? Once again my information is correct. I hope you can realize that. I have been using the S-Video and HDMI out for many years. I know what Premiere Pro can do :  )

                      • 88. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                        shooternz Level 6

                        How do you get video in and out of your system?

                         

                         

                        All media used here is ingested as files ....for a digital file based workflow.  Files that do go back to digitral tape (Masters for Broadcasts dubbs and archive) are done at a facilty that uses Kona / AJA cards.

                         

                         

                        That Quadro FX 3800 has Displayports (x2) and 1 DVI (any two outputs are active at a time but not all three)

                        We only use two and are very satisfied that we have our  "proper monitoring"  needs covered and from an off the shelf card at that..

                        • 89. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                          artistdomain Level 1

                          I agree with you; you know what your talking about. I just somewhat disagree that there is no "Proper Monitoring Solution" without paying extra for third party solutions. Nowadays when you can power a 30 bit Dreamcolor with a Nvidea card or a 24bit PC monitor with a lesser VGA card, and have Adobe do the YUV to RGB conversion, I think it qualifies as proper. NOTE: I use the term VGA to denote a traditional PC graphics card as opposed to a tru video out card. VGA has long denoted a graphics card in the computer industry. Perhaps I should have been using "graphics" card). I suppose this is all still lacking for you because you are still working with interlaced footage to some extent?   

                           

                          As the poster names Pjetro said, (I paraphrase) that graphics card ends up costing as much as a third-party monitoring solution. But prices are always coming down. What you seek re using just a monitor is exactly what Adobe and Nvidia are up to propoving. That's only natural since interlaced will become a thing of the past for a lot of us. Interlaced monitors are already considred legacy devices by a lot of us. It will all be progress, and all RGB. I think it'll happen before you know it and you can go that way right now with a VGA only card. It just needs to have an HDMI or Displayport, or  - probably coming next - thunderbolt.

                           

                          By the way, I now see a number of affordable PC monitors designed in 1920x1080 (not 1900x1200) , all the more fitting into the desired scenario. No need to scale and worry about that anymore.  

                           

                          Pjetro also provides a link to Allan Tepper on this subject. I read this material when it originally came out.  It illustrates what I'm saying and that's where I got it from. Did you read it? According to it, your desire seems to be here, now. No? 


                          What is not to like in your opinion?

                           

                          Yes, sorry for misqoting you re frames v fields and I do know fields is interlaced.   

                           

                           

                          About a month ago I read in the NY Times that Intel is working on integrating 4K video on the CPU!  But I digress.

                          • 90. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                            artistdomain Level 1

                            Shooternz,

                             

                            Nice. It's exactly what Alan Tepper suggested in his article on this subject, which Pjetro's link shared in his post. You are the first user I've encountered not using a third-party solution to drive a Dreamcolor. 

                            • 91. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                              shooternz Level 6

                              By the way, I now see a number of affordable PC monitors designed in 1920x1080 (not 1900x1200) , all the more fitting into the desired scenario. No need to scale and worry about that anymore.

                                

                               

                              That is an important point and worth everyone noting.  Both of the monitors I use in my 2 monitor set up use monitors of this spec. 

                               

                              These monitors are classed in an "AV" type of category because they are also able to be used as TVs ( although they do not have receivers) and also attached to DVD players ,cameras, freeview boxes etc. They are not solely for computers.  They actually have speakers in them and a multitude of input output connections.

                               

                              Subsequently they are usually a higher grade image quality than many puter monitors and of course...no scaling effects if one has 1920x1080 rez on them .

                               

                              The HP Dream Color is not my own and not my usual set up.  The freelancer uses it for his own edification ( and gratification).  Most times he uses my set up and is entirely happy with it as well.

                              • 92. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                artistdomain Level 1

                                Shooternz, I haven't delved into researching the specs but I assume they also support rec 709 too.

                                 

                                The Dream Color is 10 bit per color channel and thus supposedly excellent for color correction. For graphic compositing it'll show color banding that an 8 bit per chan monitor can't.


                                The RGB LED backlighting is superior to non-RGB LED backlighting too.

                                 

                                I'm definitely intending to cough up the premium for one next year. I'm a sucka for quality and from everything I've read about it, it's what I'd call really proper monitoring. For now my Sony LMD production monitor will have to do and it's pretty good .But being 8 bit just not the best for After Effects work.     

                                • 93. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                  medeamajic Level 2

                                  Artistdomain you were also wrong about Wondow's Aero not affecting the realtime previews. Just ask this guy :  )

                                   

                                  http://forums.adobe.com/message/4000686#4000686

                                   

                                  Message was edited by: Jeff Bellune.  Don't add unnecessary clutter to the topic by posting a long quote.  Just link to the discussion.

                                  • 94. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                    Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

                                    Gentlemen,

                                     

                                    Play nice, or the thread will be locked.  Irrelevant and antagonistic posts have been deleted.

                                     

                                    -Jeff

                                    • 95. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                      If Aero plays a role in your performance, it means that - in combination with running services and processes, especially the sidebar - your CPU/GPU is a bottleneck in your system, because those two components are most heavily taxed by the use of Aero.

                                       

                                      Remember, Aero is an extra task to perform and if your system is already running at or near its maximum capacity, adding an additional CPU/GPU intensive task can slow it down. If you can run a marathon under three hours, that is pretty good for an amateur, but if you add a backpack of 40+ pounds, you can't expect to finish under three hours. Same with Aero added to the load. On a properly tuned system that is nicely balanced, the impact of Aero is negligent and the same applies to 1 or 2 monitors. If the system is not properly tuned or balanced, the extra overhead of  using the 2nd monitor can just become too much and cause slowdowns.

                                       

                                      I know this is not an answer to the question, but an argument to look at the issue from a wider perspective.

                                      • 96. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                        medeamajic Level 2

                                        Look at it from a wider perspecitve?

                                         

                                        My point is Windows Aero works but if dissabled some systems might work even better. So yea, Windows Aero can effect realtime performance on some systems. That is all I ever stated. I am not saying Windows Aero does not work for you. The other guy stated his Red One files still played fine with Windows Aero. My AVCHD clips played about the same but HDV files took a huge hit. Like I said had I not used Vista's non Aero mode I would have been happy as a pig in mud. Like the other guy stated I only noticed the performance hit using dual monitors. I don't doubt the Window's Aero may not affect your system at all. I wish I had  a Fermi Card or Quadro card to test out but as of now I don't. Like I said using Vista's Aero mode affects my realtime just the same as the Windows 7 Aero mode. I am hoping Windows 8 is different. Had I not switched form Windows Vista to Windows 7 I would not have known. In a way I am glade I did. I almost stuck with Vista. Vista is not bad but 7 is better in my opinion.

                                        • 97. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                          artistdomain Level 1

                                          Hi, Mediamajic,

                                           

                                          Sorry for getting into a controversy with you. I'm sure you know your difficulties and your Adobe feature wishes better than I.

                                           

                                          Referring back to the title of the original post, I'd like to know what, if any, technical shortcomings exist in using only a graphics card to perform external monitoring with a decent PC monitor.

                                           

                                          For over 12 years, since starting my production business, I've always built or upgraded my own systems (every two to three years). I'd rather not deal with the expense and technical hassle of Matrox BM, etc.if I don't have to. If external monitoring can be done properly with just a graphics card then by all means, I want to know how to do it, properly.

                                           

                                          I'd bet that if we were interacting in person or in a group, we wouldn't have had this somewhat negative experience. It happens on forums sometimes, in my opinion, due to the lack of in-person human interaction. In person, things are articulated in ways that aren't nearly as subject to confusion or misinterpretation. For my part, I'll admith that perhaps my tone in forums probably isn't as refined as it in person.  

                                           

                                          Best of luck in your aspirations re this thread.    

                                          • 98. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                            medeamajic Level 2

                                            I stayed out of this thread until some asked about interlacing issues. The reason I stayed out it because I don't know what system everyone else is using. What settings would work best for you I cannot say.

                                             

                                             

                                            With PP CS 3 I could infact use my graphics card's S-Video output to get 720 X 480i previews. They looked much better than the VGA 800 X 600 output.

                                             

                                             

                                            As I stated you can use a progressive computer monitor to display interlaced video because CS 5.5 gives you the option to display seperate fields. This will eliminate interlacing issues on the client monitor. Like Shooternz I use AV monitors. They can be used as computer monitors or as HDTV monitors. I myself keep both monitors in progressive mode at 1920 X 1080P. Even if I get interlaced HDV or interlaced AVCHD it is OK becuase I can opt to display single fields. If I use 1920 X 1080P when I am not previewing the PP CS 5.5 timeline I can use the second monitor for other software programs like AE and Photoshop. I could in theory custom configure the second display to 720 X 480i with my system if I had to edit mini DV but I would prefer to just use the DV converter for mini DV projects. I myself like others can get more realtime runnning in Windows classic mode as opposed to using Aero. Aero is odd because my AVCHD plays just about the same but  the HDV projects took a big hit.  Go figure :  )

                                             

                                             

                                            I have thought about getting a Decklink card just for the simple fact that you could have two monitors for the Windows GUI and use the Decklink system for client previews.  Using the graphics card works decent for static titles and static PIPs but if you apply fast motion they can look a little jittery but not bad. They are more than adequate for client previews. I think using a dedicate Kona card or Decklink card might give sligthly better realtime preview for motion graphics but I can not say for sure since I don't have one.

                                            My systems works fine but you may have other video software or even 3-D games that might mess up the Nvidia settings. My advise would be to get a second computer monitor or HDTV at 1920 X 1080 and start testing it out for yourself. Try it with Aero on and off. If you have problems just post back here. I get nice smooth playback but I cannot say for sure if you will or not. I only have a mediocre GT 240 but it can playback 5 layers of native AVCHD at full resolution. If I use the three way CC I only get three layers :  (

                                             

                                             

                                            From what I read a GT 440 with DDR 5 RAM will work great. I hope this helps :  )

                                            • 99. Re: A Proper Monitoring Solution
                                              Glitchdog Level 1

                                              Jim just shared this link with me and I"ve been reading though with keen interest. The computer monitors I've looked at I can only find one, the DreamColor, that has a setting/ICC Profile for REC709. Are there others, shooternz?  I know that broadcast HD monitors are set to that.

                                               

                                              I"ve read in a few post that sRGB and Adobe RGB are close to 709. Is that correct?

                                               

                                              Is anyone using the ICC profile from Adobe that is REC709? Or for web delivery do we even care?

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