15 Replies Latest reply on Sep 29, 2011 10:39 PM by rob day

    Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies

    Matt Finlay Level 1

      Hello All,

       

      I have just been having a look at Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies...

       

      Can anyone clarify the following for me?

       

      From my testing it looks like

       

      1.) When placing an image into an indesign page the embedded icc profile is ignored and the "document profile" is used unless it is manually selected by the user in either (show import options) or (object > Image color Settings). This is despite the fact that the color settings are set to preserve embedded profiles.

       

      2.) When placing an image into an indesign page greyscale profiles are also ignored and and all mono images are simply lumped into a "greyscale" colour space with no way to assign a particular profile or keep an embedded profile etc. This is despite the fact that the color settings are set to preserve embedded profiles.

       

      3.) When placing an image into an indesign page there is also no way to manage the color of illustrator files. Embedded profiles are ignored in ai files. This is despite the fact that the color settings are set to preserve embedded profiles.

       

       

      looks like a bug to me...

       

      I am currently running indesign 7.0 on Mac OS 10.6.7

        • 1. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
          Haakenlid Level 3

          Images are not converted when you place them into InDesign. It's when you export from InDesign that colour conversion happens. Check out the export to pdf Dialogue.

          • 2. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            1). The embedded profile is preserved. If you look at the separations preview you will see that the numbers to be output in the document working space are not the same numbers as incoming in the embedded space, but the color appearance is the same. As you use Edit > Assign Profiles... (NOT CONVERT) to assign different profiles to the document  you will see the numbers change slightly each time. As Haakenlid says, the ultimate color will be determined by the settings at output -- the chosen output profile and whether you've chosen to preserve numbers or appearance. If you choose numbers, the numbers in the file will be output, if you choose convert to profile without preserving numbers, and the embedded progfile does not match the output space, there will be a conversion and numbers inthe output space that mimic the appearance in the embedded profile will be created.

             

            2) This is more or less correct. ID does not currently support grayscale profiles. All grayscale images are treated as if they are in the K channel of the current working space.

             

            3) vector files are treated the same way as raster for color management, except you don't have the ability to assign a different profile.

             

            To get an accurate preview, turn on Overprint Preview.

             

            Please update to 7.0.4. I don't recall any color management bugs, but there are plenty of other things that have been fixed.

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            • 3. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
              Matt Finlay Level 1

              Hi Peter,

               

              There is definately something weird going on.

              I suspect it may be from some combination of grouping/ungrouping/resizing/moving/relinking my image boxes but dont have time to test all of the variables at present...

              Not to mention that the original version of the document i am using here would have been created in an older version of indesign...

              After reading your response i tried placing one of the ai files in my document in for a second time. The second copy is working correctly but the first is not... This is quite odd because the links pallette shows that they are the same file and i have no control over the color management yet one is using the document profile and the other appears to be using the embedded profile. I should also mention that on every link (except my image files that I had to manually assign the embedded profile to) i cannot see a profile name under the info pallette "ICC Profile" section...

              I guess there is probably too many variables to track at the moment so i'll just have to recreate my document...

               

              Thanks for your response it was a big help!

              • 4. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                Matt Finlay Level 1

                FYI,

                 

                Updating to 7.04 then copying and pasting the page layout into a new indesign document before relinking the files has fixed the issues...

                 

                relinking the files in the previous document did not fix it...

                • 5. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Also, keep in mind that for legacy files the color management policies are set when the file was created.

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Also, keep in mind that for legacy files the color management policies are set when the file was created.

                    Peter, I'm not seeing any difference with policy handling in CS5.5–the policy is still set at creation.

                    • 7. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Updating to 7.04 then copying and pasting the page layout into a new indesign document before relinking the files has fixed the issues...

                      relinking the files in the previous document did not fix it...

                       

                      Going to Color Settings and changing the policy doesn't change the document's policy it changes the application policy.

                       

                      To change a doc's policy close the document, open Color Settings, make sure Ask When Opening is checked, choose the policy you want (Preserve Embedded to honor all linked profiles), open the doc you want to change and you'll get a dialog that lets you change the policy:

                       

                      Screen shot 2011-09-22 at 4.26.31 PM.png

                      • 8. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        rob day wrote:

                         

                        Also, keep in mind that for legacy files the color management policies are set when the file was created.

                        Peter, I'm not seeing any difference with policy handling in CS5.5–the policy is still set at creation.

                        That was my meaning -- legacy in the sense of a file already created, not necessarily from a previous version.

                        • 9. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                          Matt Finlay Level 1

                          Hi Rob/Peter

                           

                          Thanks for the replies!

                           

                          I'm Just trying to get my head around the following:

                          "Going to Color Settings and changing the policy doesn't change the document's policy it changes the application policy."

                           

                          can you point me to any information on what is managed by the documents policy and what is managed by the application's policy?

                           

                          Also, any idea what the reasoning behind having a document policy is? why not just let the application policy determine how to interpret everything?

                           

                          Also would changing my color settings to "Emulate Adobe Indesign 2.0 CMS off" be considered to be a change of "application policy" or would this also effect my "document policy"?

                           

                          Thanks!

                          • 10. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            A little confusing, for sure.

                             

                            When you create a new document, the policy settings in effect at the time are embedded into the document, sort of like other defaults, but unlike regular defaults that change in the file when you change certain settings with the document open, color policies do not. To do that you need to follow Rob's directions above.

                            • 11. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              can you point me to any information on what is managed by the documents policy and what is managed by the application's policy?


                              Also, any idea what the reasoning behind having a document policy is? why not just let the application policy determine how to interpret everything?

                               

                               

                              Color Settings is a preference—there's no setting that would work for any condition (that includes Emulate Adobe Indesign 2.0 CMS Off).

                               

                              The Color Management Policies setting is your global preference for how newly created documents will handle document and link profiles. Having the policy preference set at creation prevents unexpected profile changes as a document is passed from one user to another. The Ask When Opening check boxes give you the option to change existing document policies, which I described in post 7.

                               

                               

                              The policies let you control if existing CMYK color is allowed to be converted to a different CMYK space or not.

                               

                              If the CMYK policy is set to Off then the newly created doc is not assigned a CMYK profile and all link profiles are ignored. In this case the document colors and the links are all color managed by the current Color Settings CMYK Working Space. The preview of all CMYK color in the document will change depending on current working space, but the output numbers will not.

                               

                              Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) assigns the current CMYK Working Space to the new document and any placed links have their profiles ignored—the document profile is used instead. In this case the preview of all CMYK color (including links) comes from the assigned document profile, which travels with the document. After creation changing the Color Settings CMYK Working Space has no effect on the doc, its assigned profile is always used.

                               

                              Preserve Embedded Profiles assigns the current CMYK working space to the new document and any placed links have their profiles honored. In this case the assigned doc profile drives the preview of the document color and links with out profiles, while links with embedded profiles are previewed via their profile. If the link's profile conflicts with the document profile, it will be converted to new CMYK numbers on export or print.

                               

                              If the policy is Convert to Working Space the document colors are converted to the current CMYK Working Space and that profile is assigned to the document every time the document is opened when the working space conflicts with the assignment. Links are not converted but their profiles are honored.

                               

                              Also would changing my color settings to "Emulate Adobe Indesign 2.0 CMS off" be considered to be a change of "application policy" or would this also effect my "document policy"?

                               

                              There's never a good reason to use this setting. It would be the same as a CMYK and RGB Off policy except the Working Space profiles are some unknown—you don't have the option of choosing them.

                              • 12. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                3.) When placing an image into an indesign page there is also no way to manage the color of illustrator files. Embedded profiles are ignored in ai files. This is despite the fact that the color settings are set to preserve embedded profiles.

                                 

                                Preserve Embedded Profiles does honor Illustrator/PDF profiles, the embedded profiles just don't get listed in the info panel, which can make knowing what's going on with PDFs difficult. I think the reason is PDFs can have multiple profiles inside (i.e. PDF/X-4)

                                • 13. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                                  Matt Finlay Level 1

                                  Thanks to everyone's interesting posts on this topic,

                                  i decided to dig a little deeper and try to look at the specifics of what happened in the above scenario...

                                  I slapped together the following applescript to help myself understand what has happened:

                                   

                                  tell application "Adobe InDesign CS5"

                                      set myDocName to name of active document

                                      set titleString to "Color Properties of " & myDocName

                                      set {properties:{myCMYKpolicy, myRGBpolicy, myAfterBlendingIntent, mySolidColorIntent, myCMYKprofile, myDefaultImageIntent, myRGBprofile, myAccurateLABspots}} to {properties:{CMYK policy, RGB policy, after blending intent, solid color intent, CMYK profile, default image intent, RGB profile, accurate LAB spots}} of active document

                                      activate

                                      display dialog "CMYK Policy = " & myCMYKpolicy & "

                                  RGB Policy = " & myRGBpolicy & "

                                  CMYK Profile = " & myCMYKprofile & "

                                  RGB Profile = " & myRGBprofile & "

                                  Default Image Intent = " & myDefaultImageIntent & "

                                  Solid Color Intent = " & mySolidColorIntent & "

                                  Accurate Lab Spots = " & myAccurateLABspots & "

                                  After Blending Intent = " & myAfterBlendingIntent with title titleString

                                  end tell

                                   

                                  interestingly i get the following results when i run the script on my original file:

                                   

                                  CMYK Policy = combination of preserve and safe CMYK

                                  RGB Policy = Preserve Embeded Profiles

                                  CMYK Profile = 3DAPv3_PAPERTYPE-3_280,icc

                                  RGB Profile = Adobe RGB (1998)

                                  Default Image Intent = use color settings

                                  Solid Color Intent = use color settings

                                  Accurate Lab Spots = false

                                  After Blending Intent = use color settings

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  and i get the following when i run the script on the fixed version:

                                   

                                  CMYK Policy = Preserve Embeded Profiles

                                  RGB Policy = Preserve Embeded Profiles

                                  CMYK Profile = 3DAPv3_PAPERTYPE-3_280,icc

                                  RGB Profile = Adobe RGB (1998)

                                  Default Image Intent = use color settings

                                  Solid Color Intent = use color settings

                                  Accurate Lab Spots = false

                                  After Blending Intent = use color settings

                                   

                                   

                                  So I guess my next question's are:

                                  how did i get a combination CMYK policy if this is managed at the file's creation?

                                  Also what is safe CMYK?

                                  • 14. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    and i get the following when i run the script on the fixed version:

                                    ...

                                    how did i get a combination CMYK policy if this is managed at the file's creation?

                                     

                                    "combination of preserve and safe CMYK" is the string AppleScript uses to get and set the policy to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles). They probably use the odd terminology to avoid parenthesis in the getter and setter.

                                     

                                    The fix you described in post 1 involved cutting and pasting from one doc to another. So I'm guessing your original doc was created with Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) as the policy (which is the policy for the North America Prepress 2 and North America General Purpose 2 presets) and the doc you pasted into was created with Preserve Embedded Profiles as the policy. Copying and pasting from another document doesn't change the destination document's policy. Cutting & pasting solved your problem, but using the Ask When Opening method or better yet AppleScript would be a lot easier.

                                    • 15. Re: Indesign CS5 Color Management Policies
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      If you open Color Settings and set the CMYK policy to Off, run this script, and reopen Color Settings, you'll see it sets the policy to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles)

                                       

                                       

                                      tell application "Adobe InDesign CS5.5"

                                                set CMYK policy of color settings to combination of preserve and safe cmyk

                                      end tell

                                       


                                       

                                      If you again set the policy to Off, make a new document, and run this script:

                                       

                                       

                                      tell application "Adobe InDesign CS5.5"

                                                set oldpolicy to CMYK policy of active document

                                                set CMYK policy of active document to combination of preserve and safe cmyk

                                                set myCMYKpolicy to CMYK policy of active document

                                                display dialog "This Document's CMYK policy has been changed from: " & return & oldpolicy & return & "to: " & return & myCMYKpolicy

                                      end tell

                                       

                                       

                                      The script's dialog tells you that the document's policy is now Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or in AppleScript—combination of preserve and safe cmyk. If you check Color Settings you'll see that the policy is still set to Off there.

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