36 Replies Latest reply on Sep 30, 2011 1:10 PM by Noel Carboni

    Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?

    Noel Carboni Level 7

      Hi guys,

       

      I've got most of my colors coming out just about the way I want them in Camera Raw, save for one thing:  My bright blue skies come out kind of drab - especially by comparison to the in-camera JPEGs.  Note the difference, for example, in the sky colors in this representative sample.  I'm using the Camera Standard profile from Adobe with some tweaks to the sliders by default, but none of the sliders available will allow me to saturate the sky color without corrupting the balance of the darker colors.

       

      SkyColorDifferences.jpg

       

      I wouldn't mind a much more saturated sky but with the bluer color I'm getting from Photoshop, but the real key here is the level of color saturation in the sky.  Clearly the Canon is interpreting the data in the bright sky area pretty differently than Adobe's converter.  In my opinion they're doing a better job of it than Adobe.

       

      My question is this:  In pursuit of more saturated bright colors, should I tweak up my own profile?  Or perhaps should I craft some action steps in Photoshop proper to correct this?  The former would yield a more integrated, direct result, but the latter wouldn't be too bad as I already use an action to convert images from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB.

       

      Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated.

       

      Thanks.

       

      -Noel

        • 1. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
          Jeff Schewe Level 5

          Click on the HSL panel, select Saturation and the TAT tool and in the blue sky, click and raise the mouse from the look of the image, you'll prolly have to modify hue as well...you can also click on Luminosity and the TAT and drag down to darken the blue...if you find you are always doing the same adjustment, create a preset using the HSL subset.

          • 2. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
            Noel Carboni Level 7

            Thanks for your thoughts, but this is an issue well beyond the capabilities of overall color adjustments.  As I mentioned above, I have the overall color - for everything other than the brightest parts of the image (e.g., skies) - already the way I like it using the presets.  Your advice is too simplistic.

             

            The problem - using the above example - is that if I saturate the sky enough to where it's nice and blue, the blue reflections on the car get super deep blue.  It ends up looking way overdone!

             

            The real issue here is that very bright parts of the image are being saturated FAR more by Canon's conversions than by Photoshop.  Maybe Photoshop is trying to be more mathematically accurate or something, while Canon is trying to make prettier pictures but the but bottom line is that highlight regions seem to have a lot more life in Canon's conversions.

             

            I've been working for the past couple of hours on a "post conversion" action that I've gotten to do the right things to the image converted in Camera Raw.  Basically, it radically boosts saturation of colors and especially blues in only the brightest parts of the image, and in having tried it on many of my photos containing sky I've found that my results with bright sky are now actualy even BETTER than Canon's conversions, which tend to go slightly too far to green. 

             

            Consider this example:

             

            ActionResults.jpg

             

            I have more testing to do, but I like the results so far...  Really adds life to outdoor images.

             

            -Noel

            • 3. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
              areohbee Level 5

              Camera Raw makes it very easy to adjust the sky, and save a preset for reuse - as Jeff has described. And, for this photo, it would probably work perfectly (since the sky is the only thing that would be significantly affected).

               

              Just beware that ACR's HSL tool does not descriminate color on the basis of luminosity or saturation, nor does it allow any control over the color range affected.

               

              Thus, if you have dark blue-ish flowers (or car, or water...) under a light blue sky - both will be affected by the HSL adjustment.

               

              Obviously you can also paint the sky to remedy (generally a lot of work, I know, since the auto-masking technology is not of much assistance in this endeavor), but another solution to consider is a custom calibration profile (or a set of them).

               

              Using the camera profiles, you can confine the hue adjustment to the luminosity and hues of the sky without affecting the darker tones.

               

              Warning: its not for the meek (maybe one day the profile technology will be better tapped for everyday use...).

               

              Rob

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                areohbee Level 5

                If you're cool with Photoshop+big files, I think you have a great solution already.

                 

                But another thing to consider is a modified tone curve. Something like this is sometimes good for landscapes or other outdoor shots that tend to have overly bright high tones.

                (I can send recipe if you like)

                 

                tone-curve_debright.gif

                PS - I got this tone curve from the sizzling badger and I think he did an outstanding job with it - many photos have more saturation and color/tonal detail in the upper tones when using it.

                 

                Rob

                • 5. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                  Thanks, Rob.

                   

                  I've been experimenting with the Tone Curve a bit myself, and while it helps awaken the brightest parts a little, it's not enough.

                   

                  Some of my test images are of a surfer I photographed, and I see some additional highlight detail in the Canon conversions that I haven't been able to get from Camera Raw yet, and a tone curve like what you've shown above might well help get me closer.

                   

                  It's become apparent to me that Canon progressively increases saturation in the brightest parts - or Adobe progressively DEcreases it, not sure who's "right", per se, but I'd say Canon's images are prettier.  Perhaps I'll try experimenting with the profile editor next. I'm not sure how to keep the same hue but just increase saturation in the brighter parts, though.

                   

                  Here are another couple of examples...

                   

                  SkySaturation.jpg

                   

                  AnotherColorComparison.jpg

                   

                  This last example shows that the Camera Raw conversion, after being enhanced by the action, is provided a purer blue without a shift to green.

                   

                  -Noel

                  • 6. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                    areohbee Level 5

                    HI Noel,

                     

                    I regularly compare Lightroom renderings to NX2 as well, and find similar phenomena: Lightroom often under-does the lighter tones, and NX2 often over-does them.

                     

                    Which characteristic is more pleasing depends on the photograph, in my opinion.

                     

                    Anyway, its all about mastering the tool whichever one you've chosen... One of my ongoing struggles with Lightroom is bringing sufficient color and tone detail into the highlights - highlight recovery is still a little weak, IMO. On the other hand, Lightroom fill-light is awesome, so often times the solution is just reduced exposure and/or brightness and pumped up fill.

                     

                    I think you have a great Photoshop action though, so...

                     

                    regarding the profiles, DNG Profile Editor allows you to define color tables where you pick a hue and luminosity and then adjust it - so you need two (or more) points: a light blue point to enrich the sky, then a dark blue point to keep the dark blues from changing. You could also have a mid-blue point to anchor the mid blue hues... (DPE extrapolates and interpolates between points...).

                    Unfortunately, you have to choose colors from an image to adjust them (no way to add a point from a color picker, or at least I don't know how). So, sometimes one has to pass a multitude of different images through to get a recipe down pat. I've considered creating a photograph of a color wheel to use, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

                     

                    (translation: Lightroom = ACR ;-}

                     

                    Cheers,

                    Rob

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                      Rob Cole wrote:

                       


                      Lightroom often under-does the lighter tones, and NX2 often over-does them.

                       

                      Thanks for the confirmation.

                       

                      It really sounds like we need separate adjustability of saturation for darks, mids, and lights in the next versions of Camera Raw / Lightroom, doesn't it?

                       

                      -Noel

                      • 8. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                        areohbee Level 5

                        Noel Carboni wrote:

                         

                        It really sounds like we need separate adjustability of saturation for darks, mids, and lights in the next versions of Camera Raw / Lightroom, doesn't it?

                         

                        Well said...

                         

                        -R

                        • 9. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                          Vit Novak Level 3

                          Noel Carboni wrote:

                           

                          Hi guys,

                           

                          I've got most of my colors coming out just about the way I want them in Camera Raw, save for one thing:  My bright blue skies come out kind of drab - especially by comparison to the in-camera JPEGs.  Note the difference, for example, in the sky colors in this representative sample.  I'm using the Camera Standard profile from Adobe with some tweaks to the sliders by default, but none of the sliders available will allow me to saturate the sky color without corrupting the balance of the darker colors.

                           

                          SkyColorDifferences.jpg

                           

                          I wouldn't mind a much more saturated sky but with the bluer color I'm getting from Photoshop, but the real key here is the level of color saturation in the sky.  Clearly the Canon is interpreting the data in the bright sky area pretty differently than Adobe's converter.  In my opinion they're doing a better job of it than Adobe.

                           

                          My question is this:  In pursuit of more saturated bright colors, should I tweak up my own profile?  Or perhaps should I craft some action steps in Photoshop proper to correct this?  The former would yield a more integrated, direct result, but the latter wouldn't be too bad as I already use an action to convert images from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB.

                           

                          Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated.

                           

                          Thanks.

                           

                          -Noel

                           

                          Noel,

                           

                          In short, color transformation from RAW to output color space in ACR consists of transformation by combination of matrix and lookup table operations, and correcting this via tone curve. Tone curve essentially compresses highlights, so that dynamic range of sensor fits into dynamic range of output media (monitor/paper). As result of this, contrast and saturation of highlights is compressed and you have drab sky (and all other highlight colors, just that it's most visible on the sky). On the other side, contrast of midtones and shadows is enhanced, so dark exposed sky/sea/shadows are oversaturated

                           

                          That's one of the reasons why we need rendering, to make the photo look more natural. In Adobe standard profiles, amount of rendering is moderate (older versions) or close to zero (new versions), where actually only rendering is achieved by tone curve

                           

                          Manufacturers like Canon, Nikon etc tweak these color profiles to overcome this and other problems (one of them being also handling of blown colors etc). So there are different camera profiles, like Standard, Landscape, Portrait ... However, every manufacturer does this differently, so colors from Canon cameras are different than from Nikon cameras. As I understand Jeff in his previous posts, Adobe team doesn't feel there is a need for additional rendering for some reason ... so Adobe standard profile has minimal amount of rendering

                           

                          If you want to use Adobe standard profile, you have to live with that, as you can't correct highlights separately from shadows with neither ACR or DNG PE - correction is only 2D (there is a similar tool from Canon that support 3D coorection, but it works only with DPP and Canon cameras). If you like colors from the camera, use Camera profiles in ACR. But built-in camera profiles (and consequently camera profiles from Adobe also) also have some faults  - for instance,  on my 400D, sky that is close to being blown (in raw color space) but still not blown has hue too low and also looks unnatural with cyan tone (sRGB only, while aRGB profile, that is emulated in ACR is better) - like in the photo you posted above. On the other side, on A620 compact, cyan colors have too high hue and too low saturation (to prevent from blown sky turning cyan I presume), making some beautiful beach scenes quite dull etc ...

                          • 10. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                            Thank you for the additional info, Vit.

                             

                            Vit Novak wrote:

                             

                            If you like colors from the camera, use Camera profiles in ACR. But built-in camera profiles (and consequently camera profiles from Adobe also) also have some faults

                             

                            Yes, as I mentioned, I'm using Camera Standard, and I've pointed out one fault, as you can see.

                             

                            In all what you wrote I didn't see mention of the possibility of starting with something like Camera Standard and then using the profile editor to cause greater saturation in bright colors with it.  I created a profile a long while back with it, and I simply don't remember the mechanics of using it very well.  Rob has said that it may well be that I could do so, and I'll probably install it and try such a thing soon - perhaps as soon as later today.

                             

                            I hadn't anticipated my action ending up working so well.  After tuning it a bit, I tried it on maybe 100 photos that had problem areas, and I couldn't find any that it made worse, while universally the color in the bright parts were all improved.  I even took steps to ensure things like fine branches against the sky don't get excessively blue fringes.  And yes, it increases the saturation of all colors, with cyans/blues just a bit more.

                             

                            I'm left to wonder...  if, in fact, it IS possible to craft a camera profile to achieve the higher saturation just in highlights, then why haven't Adobe done so already in profiles like "Camera Standard"?

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                              Vit Novak Level 3

                              From my remembering, DNG PE didn't work as I expected. It IS possible to set dark blue and light blue control point for instance, but this still results in all blue colors of that hue and saturation being affected (regardless of the lightness). However, since DNG profiles work in linear Photo Pro color space, where hues and saturations are different than in sRGB, it's probably possible to make some improvements this way, but also possibly introducing another problems, especially some nasty effects in blown highlights (like "untwisting" the profile with dcptool) .... after several days of experimenting, I abandoned DNG PE as I wasn't getting what I wanted.

                               

                              But it was several years ago, so I could be wrong about that

                              • 12. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                About Camera Standard - I didn't read your post careful enough and I thought you are using Adobe Standard

                                 

                                With dng profiles, it is posssible to match in-camera colors almost entirely. But there are some things to consider:

                                 

                                - Canon has different rendering for sRGB and aRGB. Adobe camera profiles are calibrated in widest possible color space (in case of DPP it is actually aRGB even if you select Wide RGB). So if you use Camera Profile and convert to sRGB later, you won't get the same colors as from camera using sRGB directly. aRGB profile has less saturated sky (and there are also some slight differences between camera and DPP). To match colors, you have to use aRGB in camera and aRGB in ACR (or convert to aRGB). In case of Nikon (NX2), rendering in all color spaces is the same (inside gamut, of course)

                                - since BaselineExposure tag isn't implemented yet in profiles, some dynamic range is lost at the top. For my 400D, it is 0.25 EV. So sky can be clipped in ACR while it is not clipped in camera. Exceptions are some "v3 profiles" for some Nikon cameras, posted here several months ago

                                - older Camera profiles lack some precision, which was considerably improved with v3 profiles (as I shown several months ago after endless debates about profile quality by Nikon users)

                                 

                                What is you camera model ? If I find some spare time, I can try to make better Camera Standard profile with my software, like I did for my cameras ...

                                • 13. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                  Thanks, Vit.  Outside of this "bright parts color saturation" issue, through slider presets I've got the colors just the way I want them, but if you'd like to fool with the profile I'll be happy to try out the profile.  Up to recently I might have said I wouldn't mind having Camera Raw output exactly match the colors I am getting in my JPEGs, but given that I'm now getting better sky color with my action in the process, I guess that's not quite so easy to say any more. 

                                   

                                  I have a Canon EOS-40D.

                                   

                                  My default settings for the moment include a -0.25 EV Exposure compensation, which gets back the highlights you mentioned.

                                   

                                  Normally, using Camera Raw, I convert to ProPhoto RGB, then use an action I've created that bends out of gamut colors to fit in sRGB.  I've added the bright color saturation stuff to that action, as it's something I run right after opening the conversion anyway.

                                   

                                  I'm comparing these conversions to the sRGB JPEG images generated in the camera (i.e., the JPEGs that are embedded in the raw file).

                                   

                                  Here's the raw file that goes with the image I posted initially at the top of this thread, if it can help with your experimentation...  I can also shoot test targets or other more colorful scenes if you'd like.

                                   

                                  http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/IMG_5988.zip

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 14. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                    Ok, here it is. I named it DPP Standard sRGB. I also attached jpg, made from your raw with this profile

                                     

                                    http://www.zshare.net/download/946590807e27da72/

                                     

                                    Default settings to match camera and ACR output with THIS profile:

                                     

                                    - on the camera, select Standard profile with contrast, saturation and tone at default

                                    - on the camera, select sRGB color space

                                    - in ACR, set exposure to -0.24, brightness +50, contrast +25, blacks 0, medium contrast tone curve (note that exposure and blacks are different than usual for this profile); leave other settings (saturation, vibrance ...) at zero/default

                                    - in ACR, use sRGB as output color space (instead of using some other color space and converting to sRGB later)

                                     

                                     

                                    Some notes about this profile:

                                     

                                    - calibration is performed under the same conditions as in attached raw file (ISO, exposure, WB etc); depending on conditions, camera can use different rendering. For instance, on my compact with Digic III, higher ISO results with lower saturation. Sometimes (longer exposures, usage of flash etc) camera is using different tone curve and picture is brighter than in ACR etc ... These things can't be emulated with a single profile

                                    - calibration is performed using output from DPP, which rendering is close to rendering of the camera, but not exactly the same

                                    - because of several technical reasons, it's not possible to match camera/DPP and ACR output exactly, especially in highlights and shadows, but these differences are usually subtle

                                    - to improve precision, I'm using even bigger lookup table than Adobe in v3 profiles (which are bigger than v1 profiles), so profile is quite big; it's not documented what is the maximal size of the profile, but so far, ACR worked fine with profiles of this size

                                    - as in camera, output will be compressed to sRGB gamut, even if you select bigger color space in ACR (in case of Camera Standard, output is inside Adobe RGB color space)

                                    - profile is produced with my software, so if you find that something is wrong, don't blame Adobe team for it; however, color matrices are taken from Camera Standard profile, so WB is the same

                                    • 15. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                      Yammer Level 4

                                      A bit late to the table, but here's my opinion...

                                       

                                      I have noticed that ACR desaturates highlights, and have found this a problem with skin colour in brightly lit scenes. I have got around this to some degree with three different simulataneous techniques:

                                       

                                      1. A custom camera profile. This really helps deepen the problem colours for me (YMMV). I wouldn't dream of using a camera in ACR without a custom camera profile, made with DNGPE and my GM ColorChecker.

                                       

                                      2. Tone curve adjustment. Like Rob, I have found that pulling down the highlights curve slightly, helps with colour. You can do this from ACR, or build it into your custom camera profile.

                                       

                                      3. Don't rely on Highlight Recovery too much. Instead, reduce Exposure and use Shadow Fill. I have a general rule never to go over 12 in Highlight Recovery. If I can't recover highlights in the sky, I try to use a negative gradient exposure adjustment.

                                       

                                      I also have a home-made ACR preset called Polarise, which makes HSL adjustments to blues and greens, simulating the effect of a polariser on sky and foliage.

                                       

                                      Looking at the car photo, I'd say this was an exceptional case, as the scene has a high dynamic range and has been deliberately over-exposed for the shadows. As I said above, I'd be tempted to drop the exposure and boost the shadows for a better comparison.

                                      • 16. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                        Yammer Level 4

                                        I've just spotted the download link. I had a go in ACR: Profile Camera Standard, Exposure -1.00EV, Shadow fill 40, Parametric highlights -15.

                                        IMG_5988.jpg

                                        • 17. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                          Vit Novak Level 3

                                          Hm ... shadow fill 40 reminds me to the popular graph about photographer's learning curve (HDR hole part)

                                           

                                          http://i.imgur.com/b2feF.png

                                          • 18. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                            areohbee Level 5

                                            Vit, I had to read your post a few times before I caught on to what you were saying, but I think you pointed out an error in my previous statement about DPE:

                                             

                                            Control points are based on hue and saturation, *not* hue and luminance. - You can adjust hue, saturation, and luminance based on hue and saturation.

                                            This can still help a fair amount (over the HSL tool) since the over-bright sky tends to be under-saturated compared to the blue car..., but to reiterate: there is no luminance dependency in the control points you specify. Also, you can narrow the target hue and saturation by choosing "sandwiching/anchor" points around the color to be adjusted.

                                             

                                            I wish there was a luminance dependency too, that would really complete the tool.

                                            • 20. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                              Vit Novak Level 3

                                              Yes, from my remembering, dng PE is working that way. I mentioned that because I didn't read Noel's post well enough, so I thought he was asking about undersaturated sky when using Adobe Standard compared to camera and the way how to correct that

                                               

                                              However, I explained the reasons for less saturated sky when using Camera Standard (compared to in-camera jpg in sRGB color space) in later post

                                              • 21. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                areohbee Level 5

                                                Vit,

                                                 

                                                I wasn't able to follow everything you said about the Camera Standard profile and the Color Spaces, but I think I got the gist of it.

                                                 

                                                If I may take liberties:

                                                 

                                                Canon (and Nikon, and Panasonic, ... ) do things with contrast & saturation & camera settings, etc. that ACR doesn't, so the camera-matching profiles in ACR will never be 100%.

                                                 

                                                For example, Nikon applies Acitve D-Lighting, ACR doesn't...

                                                 

                                                I couldn't resist having a whack m'self at Noel's raw:
                                                (the jpg below is AdobeRGB - you may have to click it to see it correctly rendered)

                                                 

                                                IMG_5988.nxc.jpg

                                                 

                                                Adobe Standard (with enhanced saturation):

                                                noel-dif.png

                                                 

                                                Note: I found it *very* difficult to get the sky right in Lightroom without messing up the blue around the car windows (as Noel had mentioned earlier due to the HSL tool being indescriminate)

                                                 

                                                After toning down the rest of the over-exposure, the sky was drab: both under saturated, and under illuminated.

                                                 

                                                What you see here includes a quick adjustment in NX2 to both brighten and saturate the sky with a couple of control points.

                                                 

                                                Cheers,

                                                Rob

                                                • 22. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                  Thanks for all the input and processing, guys.  Probably says that we occasionally need a "Let's See How You Would Process This Image" thread. 

                                                   

                                                  Yammer, you have good sky color in yours, but the rest of the image came out looking a bit flat IMO.

                                                   

                                                  Rob, notice that while you have the sky nice and blue and the sun highlights have some color, you also have a hugely unnatural blue/green color in the car windows.  Overall it seems a hair oversaturated to me.

                                                   

                                                  Vit, thanks very much for the profile...  I'm going off to try it out now.  By the way, I noticed the site you used for sharing tries to pop all kinds of advertising up in the process of trying to get to the actual download.  But I persevered!

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 23. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                    Okay, here are some results:

                                                     

                                                    1.  The raw image I posted, opened via the Camera Standard profile and my default settings, then my highlight saturation action applied:

                                                     

                                                    IMG_5988_CameraStandard_Action.jpg

                                                     

                                                    2.  The image opened through Vit's profile, with center scale sliders except a -0.25 EV exposure compensation, some tone curve tweaks, and a specific white balance change, looks almost EXACTLY like the embedded JPEG, except if anything the sky color is even better (more saturated).  Nice job, Vit!

                                                     

                                                    IMG_5988_DPPStandard.jpg

                                                     

                                                    The white balance in the conversion with Vit's profile has to be tweaked Color temperature -100 and Tint -3 to exactly match the JPEG. I guess this must be a slight difference in interpretation by Adobe and Canon of the white balance numbers.  Don't I recall the profile itself can be adjusted so that this change could be automatically applied?

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 24. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                      Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                       


                                                      The white balance in the conversion with Vit's profile has to be tweaked Color temperature -100 and Tint -3 to exactly match the JPEG.
                                                      I guess this must be a slight difference in interpretation by Adobe and Canon of the white balance numbers.  Don't I recall the profile itself can be adjusted so that this change could be automatically applied?

                                                       

                                                      I'm not sure it's -100, it may be closer to -50.

                                                       

                                                      In testing Vit's profile (thanks again, man) with a bunch of images, so far I think I'm liking the slightly warmer interpretation by Camera Raw, so I'm not sure anything needs to be adjusted here.

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 25. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                        areohbee Level 5

                                                        Noel, the "hugely unnatural blue/green color in the car windows" is not present in Lightroom - I *do* see it when viewing this page *unless* I click on the image to view it - then it goes away. I hate sRGB but I suppose I should get used to using it for consistent viewing on this forum. The click-viewer seems to be properly color-managed by my account. Interestingly enough, the color looks correct on this page to me *before* submission too, but then falls apart after submitting the post... - hope I live long enough to see color handled properly across all viewing systems...

                                                         

                                                        I probably should not have enhanced the saturation either, to make for a more "neutral" comparison - oh well.

                                                         

                                                        Also, I used a derivative of Adobe Standard instead of Camera Standard, which has significantly different greens...

                                                         

                                                        -R

                                                        • 26. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                          areohbee Level 5

                                                          Those two images look *very* similar! (3 posts up)

                                                          • 27. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                            Hi Rob,

                                                             

                                                            I don't see a difference in the coloration of your image when clicking on it.  I believe I'm seeing it properly color-managed in both cases.

                                                             

                                                            That said, I always post things online in the sRGB profile.

                                                             

                                                            -Noel

                                                            • 28. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                              areohbee Level 5

                                                              Can't explain... - I would expect modern browsers to be able to display AdobeRGB at least close to correctly by now, but I expect wrong obviously...

                                                               

                                                              - try right clicking it and downloading it and displaying it in a trusted viewer. - different?

                                                              • 29. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                Noel,

                                                                 

                                                                I made above dng profile using (16 bit) output from Canon DPP and not from the camera. As I understand, Adobe is doing the same. There are slight differences in rendering between camera and DPP, so try developing your raws with DPP and ACR and check for differences

                                                                 

                                                                Technically, this profile has the same WB as Camera Standard, as I borrowed color matrices from it. But even if WB were different, if you set WB to "As Shot", what is white (R = G = B) using Camera Standard would be white with this profile, just color temperature and tint displayed in ACR window would be different. It's because when WB is set to As shot, then ACR gets all necessary WB information for color transformation from exif tags in raw file

                                                                 

                                                                However, as various technical details in DPP and ACR (and camera) are different, it's not to be expected that you get exact match in every color, but I did everything I could to be as close as possible.

                                                                 

                                                                Also, as I wrote, to match the camera / DPP exposure, correct value is, for some reason, -0.24 (instead of -0.25), because it's the value ACR is using for 40D (at least in case of raw you attached). No a big difference however ...

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                Edit: actually, color matrices are take from dng that was converted from cr2. There are differences in 4th decimal of matrix2 between dng and Camera Standard, hence the difference of 50K and tint 1 in color temperature, displayed in ACR

                                                                • 30. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                  areohbee Level 5

                                                                  sRGB:

                                                                  IMG_5988.nxc-2.jpg

                                                                  Strangely enough, this image has the same behavior as the AdobeRGB version, as I see it:

                                                                   

                                                                  Looks right as I edit this post, wrong after posting (unnatural "aqua" hue in windshield), then right again after clicking - I give up...

                                                                   

                                                                  This looks right to me: http://robcole.com/Rob/Personal/Pictures/Pictures.cfm?embedSWF&startDir=2011&openDir=Misco r&openFile=IMG_5988.nxc.jpg

                                                                   

                                                                  -R

                                                                  • 31. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                    Yammer Level 4

                                                                    Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    Yammer, you have good sky color in yours, but the rest of the image came out looking a bit flat IMO.

                                                                    I should have boosted the blacks as well, to compensate for the shadow fill, but I was trying not to "process" the image too much in ACR. I was just trying to show the effect of my changes on the sky, not the rest of the image. Here's what it looks like with a white balance and blacks adjustment too.

                                                                    IMG_5988.jpg

                                                                    • 32. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                      Vit Novak wrote:

                                                                       


                                                                      I made above dng profile using (16 bit) output from Canon DPP and not from the camera. As I understand, Adobe is doing the same. There are slight differences in rendering between camera and DPP, so try developing your raws with DPP and ACR and check for differences

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                      I've now been through a WHOLE BUNCH of images with the profile you provided.

                                                                       

                                                                      While I had things pretty close before, with your profile and the controls centered (with noted exceptions) I am getting the color I expect in every case.  I am ecstatic; I can't thank you enough!  Vit, if you'd like, browse my web site and pick out any/all of the software I make - it's yours, free of charge.

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                      Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                      sRGB:

                                                                       

                                                                      Rob, IE9 apparently is properly interpreting the color profile in the images you posted - your latest one looks exactly the same from here as the image you posted before.  From my perspective the blues/cyans - especially in the car windshield - seem oversaturated.  That may just be personal preference.

                                                                       

                                                                      Yammer P wrote:

                                                                      I should have boosted the blacks as well

                                                                       

                                                                      Yes, that gave it back the depth in the latest image you posted.

                                                                       

                                                                      -Noel

                                                                      • 33. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                        areohbee Level 5

                                                                        Its not being displayed properly if the windshield looks aqua-ish. I just checked IE9 - the display is incorrect, even the sRGB image (oversaturated and aqua-ish windshield).

                                                                         

                                                                        At least on Firefox one of two of them is correct; in IE9, I'm batting zero for two - I'm guessing same for you.

                                                                         

                                                                        It should be displayed correctly here on all browsers: http://robcole.com/Rob/Personal/Pictures/Pictures.cfm?embedSWF&startDir=2011&openDir=Misco r&openFile=IMG_5988.nxc.jpg

                                                                         

                                                                        In theory there's no difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is...

                                                                         

                                                                        -R

                                                                        • 34. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                          Yammer Level 4

                                                                          Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          Rob, IE9 apparently is properly interpreting the color profile in the images you posted - your latest one looks exactly the same from here as the image you posted before.  From my perspective the blues/cyans - especially in the car windshield - seem oversaturated.  That may just be personal preference.

                                                                           

                                                                          The problem with IE9 is that, although it now supports image profiles and v4 profiles, it STILL doesn't support monitor profiles.

                                                                           

                                                                          In effect, this means that it will display tagged AdobeRGB images correctly, but only if your monitor is calibrated very closely to sRGB. That's a very big IF. If your monitor non-standard, or had a wide gamut, browser images will still not look like their Adobe-rendered counterparts.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                            Yammer P wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            The problem with IE9 is that, although it now supports image profiles and v4 profiles, it STILL doesn't support monitor profiles.

                                                                             

                                                                            In effect, this means that it will display tagged AdobeRGB images correctly, but only if your monitor is calibrated very closely to sRGB. That's a very big IF. If your monitor non-standard, or had a wide gamut, browser images will still not look like their Adobe-rendered counterparts.

                                                                             

                                                                            Agreed, that's not a good general solution.  And unfortunately IE10 appears to have taken the same cop-out!  I see no improvement in color management in Windows 8 at all, actually.  It's as though Microsoft is taking everything less seriously!

                                                                             

                                                                            But this situation DOES describe my monitors (them being very close to sRGB), so in my case it's all good..

                                                                             

                                                                            -Noel

                                                                            • 36. Re: Best Way to Go Next to Improve Bright Sky Color?
                                                                              Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                              Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                               


                                                                              It should be displayed correctly here on all browsers: http://robcole.com/Rob/Personal/Pictures/Pictures.cfm?embedSWF&startDi r=2011&openDir=Miscor&openFile=IMG_5988.nxc.jpg

                                                                               

                                                                              Yes, it looks fine on your site.

                                                                               

                                                                              So that begs the question:  Why do images I post that are tagged with whatever profile here look fine, but images you post don't?  Are you making sure to include the profile when saving the image?  There's a checkbox in the Save As dialog...

                                                                               

                                                                              Here is the same image saved/posted with three different profiles.  How do they look to you?

                                                                               

                                                                              Mustang_ProPhoto.jpg

                                                                               

                                                                              Mustang_AdobeRGB.jpg

                                                                               

                                                                              Mustang_sRGB.jpg

                                                                               

                                                                              -Noel