23 Replies Latest reply on Oct 6, 2011 8:39 PM by MadManChan2000

    ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?

    light_n_shadow

      Hi,

       

      I use Nikon D3100 for capturing RAW images. I am currently using Adobe Camera Raw Editor 6.4.1 for the D3100. When I open any RAW image, I see some

      of the image adjustment sliders as defaulting to specific values. They are listed below.

       

      1. Tint - +10

      2. Blacks - +5

      3. Brightness - +50

      4. Contrast - +25

       

      The Camera Calibration is defaulted to Adobe Standard (AS). I am aware of the other specific CM profiles in the drop-down menu.

       

      Questions:

       

      1. Are the above listed 4 settings supposed to be camera specific OR are they always defaulted to the values that I have mentioned regardless of any Nikon DSLR ?

       

      2. Most importantly, when I compare a RAW image Histogram in the D3100 with that being shown for that image in ACR, they are NOT exactly equal ? Is this what Adobe is

      trying to say in their CR FAQ that they have introduced the Adobe Standard profile in order to best MATCH what the RAW images look like in a vendor's DSLR ?

      Even after the enhancements, the Histograms DO NOT MATCH !!  Has anyone noticed the differences ?

       

      3. The question that is really bugging me is that if I capture a RAW image and open it in ACR, I want to see how the Original image looks like based on the Exposure settings

      and the Focal length that is listed in the image metadata. So should I default all the image adjustment slider values to ZERO EXCEPT THE WHITE BALANCE to see what the

      image looks like ?  OR should I keep the above listed 4 slider default values UNTOUCHED which means that it is ACCORDING TO THE D3100 ?

      WHAT IS THE REAL EXPOSURE ?

       

      Please Help/Advise.

       

      Thank you

        • 1. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
          Jeff Schewe Level 5

          #1: yes...except Tint is based on the White Balance as determined by ACR. The rest is the normalized "Default".

           

          #2: uh...what are you asking? The Histtogram in ACR is based on the raw data in the Workflow Settings you've got set in ACR...

           

          #3: ACR looks at the white balance settings in the file and then does it's "Default" adjustments...and yes, it's normal to have a 50 Brightness and 25 Contrast. That's the Default (which you can change–RTFM). The basic Default settings have been determined by the ACR engineers to normalize the image tone curve. You can change that if you want...but what's really most important is what does the image look like? Does it need adjustment to be optimal? Odds are it does...

           

          Bottom line is that raw data in the file needs to have a basline adjustment made to the data....that's what ACR does. If you don't like the resulting default tone adjustment, you can change the ACR Default. But the odds are you'll only do that if you know what you are doing. The Default ACR adjustments are not shot specific...they are general adjustments needed to normalize the image. After the Defaults have been appied, then it's up to you to determine how to adjust the image by image settings.

           

          Note: the ONLY adjustment that is made based on the camera metadata is white balance...you can set ACR preferences to be altered based on serial number and ISO settings, aagain RTFM...

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
            Yammer Level 4

            What you need to appreciate (and what is not always obvious) is that Adobe doesn't actually want to replicate what you see on the back of the camera. You see, one of the points of shooting raw is that you want to process the image yourself. ACR has a default range of settings which (AFAIK) is the same for all cameras, and, as Jeff says, include the ones you mention, with the exception of white balance/tint, which vary with each shot, based on raw data.

             

            The fact that photos don't look exactly like the camera preview, and the histograms look slightly different too, is due to Adobe's default procesing being different to the manufacturer's. You can try to get close by changing the Camera Profile to "Camera Standard", changing the workspace setting to a matching colour space, and tweaking a few sliders, but really, why bother? If you want the manufacturer's look as your final image then you might as well shoot JPEG or TIFF. You are presumably shooting raw because you want to do a better job than the camera's processor.

             

            So, the advice here is, basically, don't expect to match the camera thumbnail too closely. When some people say "this is what the raw image looks like, straight out of the camera" what this actually means is "this is what the camera manufacturer's own raw conversion looks like, based on the selected menu settings". If you really want the Nikon look, then you should use Capture NX, or just shoot JPEG.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
              Noel Carboni Level 7

              Yammer P wrote:

               


              Adobe doesn't actually want to replicate what you see on the back of the camera.

               

              Which would be understandable if Adobe actually made clearly better images than the camera does right out of the box.  But they don't, in my opinion. 

               

              The funny thing is that Camera Raw actually CAN be made to both closely match the camera manufacturer color and tone curves AND make better images, but it takes some (okay, a fair bit of) tweaking and setting up of one's own defaults (and sometimes even a custom profile) to get it to consistently do so.  But once done (and you get good at using your own setup) you can make spectacular images through Camera Raw.  I am amazed every day by what I am getting out of my none-too-new camera using Camera Raw.

               

              I believe Adobe would make a lot of customers initially happier if they'd just ship Camera Raw set up by default to match the default camera color.

               

              -Noel

              • 4. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                Yammer Level 4

                Noel Carboni wrote:

                 

                   The funny thing is that Camera Raw actually CAN be made to both closely match the camera manufacturer color and tone curves AND make better images, but it takes some (okay, a fair bit of) tweaking and setting up of one's own defaults (and sometimes even a custom profile) to get it to consistently do so.  But once done (and you get good at using your own setup) you can make spectacular images through Camera Raw.  I am amazed every day by what I am getting out of my none-too-new camera using Camera Raw.

                 

                I believe Adobe would make a lot of customers initially happier if they'd just ship Camera Raw set up by default to match the default camera color.

                I think they've come a long way since CS3, when ACR 4 was using the old profile system, and Nikon reds came out as orange. The camera profile system, introduced with 4.5, was a leap forward, and meant that people could get pretty close to what they were expecting, with minimal set-up. An F1 button in ACR might have helped too.

                 

                But not all of us are obsessed with replicating the LCD. I have a custom camera profile and default settings which give me a much better "first view" of my raw images than the manufacturer's version. Some of it is subjective, of course, but the colour rendition is clearly superior too. I am often quite shocked when I see Nikon's versions of my images on my computer "by accident".

                • 5. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                  You just made my point, exactly.  You are using a custom profile and your own set of defaults to achieve that "better than out-of-camera" result, as am I (thanks again to Vit for the profile I now use as the basis for this).  Sounds like you would have done the same even if the starting point was something that exactly matched your camera.

                   

                  Adobe provides a "Camera Standard" profile, supposedly to provide folks who DO want a better match just what they want, but it's neither the default nor does it closely match camera characteristics (at least not with the cameras I've used).  Yet someone like Vit Novak can make the latter happen with a custom profile, so we know it's possible.

                   

                  That this thread was created by light_n_shadow is an indication that there IS an expectation by new Adobe users for matching color.  That's all I'm saying.

                   

                  -Noel

                  • 6. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                    Vit Novak Level 3

                    Noel,

                     

                    Camera profiles for D3100 are actually of "v3" type (although they are not named as such), so I would expect them to be quite close to in-camera jpeg (except some differences in shadows and some Nikon specific banding problems we already discussed with Eric)

                     

                    Your camera was different story (different camera rendering in sRGB than in aRGB which was profiled in Camera Standard, older profile type etc)

                    • 7. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                      Thanks for the clarification.  My apologies for overgeneralizing.

                       

                      -Noel

                      • 8. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                        Yammer Level 4

                        Vit Novak wrote:

                         

                        Camera profiles for D3100 are actually of "v3" type

                        This reminds me of the V3 pro camera profiles Eric posted a while back. I assumed V3 meant that it was their third attempt. What do you mean by v3, Vit?

                        • 9. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                          Vit Novak Level 3

                          Yes, I call them "v3" just because they are technically similar to Nikon D3, D700 v2 and v3 beta profiles, posted by Eric on this forum

                           

                          Difference is that in older profiles, color is transformed from raw color space to Photo Pro using forward matrices, then modified with lookup table in Photo Pro and finally with tone curve.

                          On v2/v3 profiles, lookup table alone performs first two tasks, using some tricks. After I came to this idea, I realized that Adobe already silently produced some Camera profiles that work this way. It resolved some clipping issues on color space boundaries in original Photo Pro workflow. Currently, these camera profiles produced by Adobe all have size about  277 kB, while older camera profiles were around 112 kB

                          • 10. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                            Vit Novak wrote:

                             


                            Camera profiles for D3100 are actually of "v3" type (although they are not named as such), so I would expect them to be quite close to in-camera jpeg (except some differences in shadows and some Nikon specific banding problems we already discussed with Eric)

                             

                            Your camera was different story (different camera rendering in sRGB than in aRGB which was profiled in Camera Standard, older profile type etc)

                             

                            I took the liberty of downloading several D3100 .NEF files I found on one of the image test web sites (ImagingResource) and compared the embedded JPEG with a default conversion in Photoshop Camera Raw using the Adobe Standard profile.  Near as I can tell, the camera settings that influenced the embedded JPEGs were set at default.

                             

                            The differences were less with the Camera Standard profile, but still quite noticeable.  

                             

                            From what I could see the colors and tone curves are different, especially the luminosity/saturation of specific colors such as reds and blues.  My statements stand.

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                              Yammer Level 4

                              So, presumably, anyone with an older camera won't be benefitting from this new technique, as the profiles will have been made using older techniques. I generated my latest profile using DNG PE b3. Where does that put me?

                              • 12. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                Noel Carboni wrote:

                                 

                                ...

                                From what I could see the colors and tone curves are different, especially the luminosity/saturation of specific colors such as reds and blues.  My statements stand.

                                 

                                 

                                It is possible, of course. Other possibility is that in those jpegs, some settings like dynamic range optimization (similar to Fill-in in ACR) was used

                                 

                                You should develop them in NX2, switching off all these things, and then compare with ACR

                                • 13. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                  Vit Novak Level 3

                                  Yammer P wrote:

                                   

                                  So, presumably, anyone with an older camera won't be benefitting from this new technique, as the profiles will have been made using older techniques. I generated my latest profile using DNG PE b3. Where does that put me?

                                   

                                  I didn't try latest versions of DNG PE so I don't know.

                                   

                                  Technically, it is possible to recalculate a v1 profile into v2/v3. However, v2/v3 profiles have also bigger lookup table, so they are more accurate

                                  • 14. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                    Vit Novak wrote:

                                    It is possible, of course. Other possibility is that in those jpegs, some settings like dynamic range optimization (similar to Fill-in in ACR) was used

                                     

                                    You should develop them in NX2, switching off all these things, and then compare with ACR

                                     

                                    Yes, it did occur to me that the JPEG images might not have default settings, so I put some effort into downloading the ones that seemed to done with the camera's defaults. 

                                     

                                    Your profile generates results that are indistinguishable from those delivered by my Canon software and in-camera processing.  That's enough to prove that it can be done.  And notably the Adobe Standard profile is WAY off even for the Nikon D3100 - and this is what bears on my comments above.

                                     

                                    Not having any Nikon gear myself, and only wanting to go so far with experimentation, I'll probably not download/install a copy of NX2 just now.  I would be interested in knowing whether you (or anyone) has actually found that a Camera Standard conversion on a NEF has delivered results indistinguishable from NX2 or in-camera processing.

                                     

                                    It occurred to me that maybe Adobe is restricted from precisely matching camera manufacturer color because of legal clauses preventing reverse-engineering.  What you can do they may not be allowed to do.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                      Vit Novak Level 3

                                      Tried one lanscape nef (first one from D3100 galery on imaging-resource), developped it with NX2 and ACR using Camera Standard and - profile is quite good (except some differences in shadows which I don't care of; there are no blown highlights on that photo to check). Also, ACR assumes BaselineExposure 0 for this camera, so there are no additional problems caused by this

                                      • 16. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                                        I had tried that image as well, and I thought I saw some minor color shifts as well as the brightness differences you spotted.

                                         

                                        So basically, while decent it's not "indistinguishable".  It could probably be tweaked with a non-center-scale set of sliders to get very close - as I had done with Adobe's Camera Standard profile for my Canon before you provided the most excellent profile you made.  I wonder if the same issues I saw also affect the D3100's transition into highlights...

                                         

                                        It's a bit surprising the profiles provided by Adobe simply aren't better quality.  It's almost as if you know their software's profile needs better than they do.

                                         

                                        -Noel

                                        • 17. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                          Yammer Level 4

                                          All my camera profiles are roughly 28,300 bytes, from July 2008, to my latest D300 profile generated with DNGPE b3 in August.

                                          • 18. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                            MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                            Just to clarify:  The "Camera"-prefixed profiles (e.g., Camera Standard) provided by Adobe are neither designed nor expected to match the appearance of in-camera JPEGs (which are usually limited to a smaller color space and/or may have auto-adjustments applied, such as vignette correction, shadow exposure compensation, etc.).  Instead, they are intended to match the appearance of raw files processed thru the vendors' software, using a wider color space, with the auto-adjustments disabled.  Sometimes these are similar, but sometimes not.  (For example, "Standard" mode for Canon S90 in-camera is quite different in appearance compared to "Standard" picture style when processing the raw files in the Canon software.)

                                            • 19. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                              Vit Novak Level 3

                                              Eric, as I said - Canon has different rendering in sRGB and Adobe RGB. If you develop cr2 from S90 with DPP in sRGB and using Standard style, colors are pretty much the same as from camera. If you develop it in Adobe RGB and convert to sRGB, they are different even inside sRGB gamut. Sky is less saturated, skin/orange color is more saturated and has different hue etc ...

                                               

                                              Actually, it seems that DPP converts everything to sRGB Standard first, then converts / expands that to other picture style in whether sRGB or Adobe RGB (there are icc profiles named SS, LS, FS ... and SA, LA, FA ... in DPP directory for that tasks and DPP opens those profiles according to selected color space and picture style. However, SS, meaning sRGB Standard, is never used by DPP)

                                              • 20. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                Yes, I just wanted to clarify that result from the Adobe "Camera" profiles may not match the result from in-camera JPEG for various reasons (the color space issue being one of them).  Usually the in-camera settings have various auto adjustments also enabled by default.

                                                • 21. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                                  Yammer Level 4

                                                  On examining profiles for the D300 on computer, I see that the Adobe Standard profile is 55kB, the Camera Xxxxx profiles are 110kB, the v3 profiles are 272kB, and my own single-illuminant profile from DNGPEb3 is 28kB. That's a heck of a difference.

                                                   

                                                  Is this difference due to the number of colour samples in the look-up tables? Presumably, doubling the number of illuminants also doubles the profile size, explaining why my home-rolled profile is half the size of the Adobe Standard profile. But why are the Camera Xxxxx profiles twice as big again, and the v3 profiles 10 times larger than my own?

                                                   

                                                  I'm starting to think that my home-made profile is maybe not as accurate as it should be. Is there a disadvantage to using such a simple profile, as opposed to Adobe's profiles? Are there any plans to beef up the profile making process for end-users? Are there any plans for revised profiles to replace the existing ones supplied with Camera Raw?

                                                  • 22. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                                    Adobe Standard profiles have LUT 36x8x16 (first dimension along hue, second along saturation, third along value, all in linear Photo Pro). Camera standard v1 profiles have 36x16x16, so they are twice the size. V2 and v3 profiles have 90x16x16. LUT size is increased to get needed accuracy of the profile. There can be only one LUT after matrix conversion

                                                     

                                                    However, there can be two LUTs before matrix conversion (for 2 illuminants), which I think is the case in profiles generated with DNG PE (not quite sure, as I didn't use it several years, so Eric or someone else can correct me). Main intention of calibration is to correct results of existing profile (I think Jeff wrote this several times) for specific illuminant or lens. You can't get rendering like in camera profiles this way, starting from the scratch - for that purpose color checker with a few color patches is surely not enough

                                                    • 23. Re: ACR Camera Raw Defaults for D3100 ? What is the correct Exposure ?
                                                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                      Hi Vit,

                                                       

                                                      Yes, you have the same interpretation as I do.

                                                       

                                                      To summarize: The matrices are generally used to perform colorimetric mapping (so that raw colors can be related to scene colors, where possible) and to perform mapping of raw numbers to white points (e.g., for temperature & tint mapping). The subsequent lookup tables (ProfileHueSatMap1 and ProfileHueSatMap2) can be used to solve problem colors and perform non-linear corrections. For very good colorimetric sensors this may not be necessary. Generally, when using the ProfileHueSatMap tags I encourage the use of 2.5D tables, i.e., value dimension is just 1 sample, so that entries are indexed by hue & saturation only. The downstream 3D "LookTable" tag and tone curve can be used to perform desired scene rendering (to apply a "look" or "style" to the image).

                                                       

                                                      The only required part is the color matrix. Everything else is optional.