12 Replies Latest reply on Oct 16, 2011 5:41 PM by ronfya

    Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?

    ronfya

      Hi there,

       

      Are the functions isolate blending & knockout group (like in Illustrator) available somewhere in AE ?

       

      I mean I have some animation to make in AE with an artwork from Illustrator.

      Problem is, the artwork is made from discs painted with gradients that use screen blending modes that interact with each other to create the desired effect (on the static artwork). And these discs are subdivided in subgroups, discs interact in the subgroups but groups do not interact with other groups (hence the use of isolate blending option).

       

      I need to animate these discs and keep the screen blending modes "within the groups" in AE.

       

      Is it possible to achieve this and how ?

       

      Thanks for helping.

        • 1. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Are you importing your Illustrator file as a composition?

           

          If so, your Disks need to be on separate layers. Everything should work just fine then. If not, post the AI file and I'll take a look.

          • 2. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
            ronfya Level 1

            Well, problem is part of that.

             

            I have my artwork in illustrator using the "isolate blending" option on the appropriate groups.

            But, since I want to animate each element of within a group, I need to have these elements on their own layers before importing into after effects. And by doing this, I do not have the possibility (within Illustrator) to use the "isolate blending" option since I have each element on its own layer and there is no group (with isolated blending) on top of them. Hence the need to isolate blending in after effects ... or another way around.

             

            :-/

            • 3. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
              Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

              There's no way around the fact that, if you need control of individual elements, they must be individual layers within AE.  The logical way to move forward is to create what you need in AI, split everything into layers, import to AE, then recreate the look you require within AE.  Odds are that each group within Illustrator can be pre-composed into its own composition within AE to achieve the isolated blending you require.

               

              Post more specifics of your project if you want more specific answers.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Show me the AI file and I'll figure it out. I actually only need one of the groups you want to animate.

                • 5. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                  Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                  Forget your AI file, rebuild it in AE. Andrew pretty much gave you the correct answer: There is no way to retain knockout groups and isolated blending in AE since there is no way to access AI groups in the first place, only layers. Use pre-comps and the continuous rasterization switch to structure your project similar to your AI file, use duplicate comps when you create a logic conflict and cannot create the blending just by nesting.

                   

                  Mylenium

                  • 6. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                    ronfya Level 1

                    Ok, pre-comps seem like a good workaround.

                    I am going to try that.

                     

                    Thanks

                    • 7. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                      ronfya Level 1

                      Well, I tried to use precomps in AE to reproduce the effect I have in AI and I did not succeed.

                       

                      Following the link hereunder, there is an AI file that simulates my problem.

                       

                      http://ronfya.free.fr/ronfya/temp/blending_problem.ai

                       

                      The discs from the disc group are blended using the screen blending mode.

                      That group has the "isolate blending" option checked so that I can have these discs on any background I want without any interference (like the white or blue or gradient BG in the AI file).

                       

                      I need to reproduce the same situation in AE in order to animate these discs (with the see-through effect from the screen bmending mode) over any possible background.

                       

                      My problem is, I cannot find any way to prevent the discs from blending with the background in AE. In particular, if the BG is white, the discs just disappear beacause of screen blending. (That's why I used the "isolate blending" to prevent this in AI)

                       

                      Thank you if you have any idea for helping.

                      • 8. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                        Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                        That's just not how it works in AE. In order to get a similar result you will have to manipulate the transparency genuinely with channel effects or mattes. In fact you want to do exactly what other people are trying hard to avoid - "bad" premultiplied Alpha where the background RGB values are not removed from the foreground colors, comonnly refereed to as fringing. In your case the best possible solution would be to "isolate" the blending in a pre-comp where the result is set against black, then use effects like Shift Channel to generate an Alpha based on the accumulated luminance. Additionally you may need to use a second comp and re-introduce the original source's Alpha/ transparency/ opacity by assigning it as a matte or using the Channel Combiner effect. You just have to fiddle with teh blending amnounts to get the correct balance.

                         

                        Mylenium

                        • 9. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                          1. Release your group of disks to layers using build, drag the layers above layer 1, then open in AE as a composition.
                          2. Select all disk layers and pre-compose, open the pre-comp, duplicate the layers and parent each dupe with it's twin.
                          3. Select all of the original layers and drag them to the top of the pre-comp, then click the preserve underlying transparenty switch.
                          4. Animate the position of the disks in the pre-comp.
                          5. Do not collapse transforamations in the main comp
                          6. There you go. Isolated blending modes.

                           

                          Here's a projet file with the modified ai file.

                           

                          Screen Shot 2011-10-16 at 9.11.16 AM.png

                          • 10. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                            ronfya Level 1

                            Yeah, very nice Rick. Thanks !

                            Following your guidelines, I could get to what I want.

                            But in order to fully understand what's going on, I have a few more questions.

                             

                            In fact, I don't get why you told me to :

                            - duplicate the layers and parent each dupe with it's twin in the pre-comp

                            - select all of the original layers and drag them to the top of the pre-comp, then click the preserve underlying transparenty switch.

                             

                            I had the effect wanted just by pre-comping the artwork and by not checking the "collapse transformations" in the main comp like you advised.

                            So can you explain why you did the other steps ?

                             

                             

                             

                            I am quite new to AE and did not know what the "collapse transformations" was really about and used to always check it in order to preserve resolutions of nested pre-comps.

                            Now it is much clearer since I read the explanation from Adobe's Adolfo Rozenfeld here :

                            http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/2/960468

                             

                            and saw this really instructive video from Bartek Skorupa here showing some weird behaviors of the "collapse transformations" option

                            http://ae.tutsplus.com/tutorials/workflow/the-naked-truth-about-collapse-transformations/

                             

                            So now I see the "collapse transformations" option more as :

                            - if checked, treat the precomp as if its layers were directly placed in the main comp

                            - if not checked, treat the precomp as already rasterized video placed in the main comp

                             

                            And about Mylenium's explanation, I really don't get it fully yet but I am learning

                             

                            Anyway, thanks guys !

                            • 11. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                              Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              There's a slightly adding the transparency mattes produces a more pronounced effect and more effectively isolates the holdout. Take a look at the two examples. It's your choice. If a simple pre-comp works for your design then that's fine. If you want more then add the twins and experiment with their blend modes.

                               

                              Twins:

                              Screen Shot 2011-10-16 at 5.17.00 PM.png

                               

                              Just pre-composed:

                               

                              Screen Shot 2011-10-16 at 5.18.06 PM.png

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: Isolate blending & knockout group in AE ?
                                ronfya Level 1

                                Ha ok. It was just your take to a more shiny artwork by doubling the layers.

                                Well, since this artwork is given to me by the person I am making the video, I need to leave it as is. So I'll keep just the simple precomp.

                                 

                                Anyway. Thank you very much !