9 Replies Latest reply on Oct 21, 2011 9:34 AM by John Hawkinson

    Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.

    MMMeister2010

      Hi there,

       

      I'm currently attempting to set up a document which will be printed and professionally bound.

      Scans of my images will be placed in the document along with text, shapes ect.
      The binders informed me that for the A5 document (A4 pages halfed lengthways when bound) I need to set a "3-5mm bleed all around" and "25mm from gutter".

       

      Does that mean i set the gutter at 25mm and bleed at 5mm?

       

      Do i need to check what they need for margins and slug? They never mentioned those..

       

      And finally, I need to set a fold line directly down the middle of the A4 page - how would I go about doing that?

      Screen shot 2011-10-21 at 5.46.03 PM.png

      Any response is greatly appreciated!

       

      Thanks

        • 1. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
          M Blackburn Level 3

          The bleed is correct -- sort of -- but the gutter as you are setting it is irrelevant and is not what the printer would be talking about. Setting the gutter in the column section, defines the width of the space between columns. Since you only have one column, you don't have any space between them.

           

          More fundamentally incorrect is that your page size should be the page size of your document, not the page size of the spread -- ie it should be set up as A5. And you need to have more than one page ; put in the correct number of pages.The gutter that the printer is referring to, then becomes the inside margin. If you are going to be using an inside margin of 12.7mm, and both pages on each spread will have an inside margin, your gutter will be 25.4mm, which is fine by your printer.

           

          I should also mention that the gutter is really only relevant to text margins. There is probably no reason at all that pictures or graphics can't go across spreads.

           

          And finally, these questions show a fundamental lack of understanding of printing, and pagination. I would really recommend you build a dummy to help yourself understand what's going on.

          • 2. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
            MMMeister2010 Level 1

            In regards to the page size being "fundamentally incorrect", it has to actually be A4 - it's being folded in half and then bound, as i've got 3D components that need the pocket of space in between.

             

            And finally, I'm awfully sorry that you think that - but cut me some slack. I'm a first year design student, and I'm not expected to know everything about printing and InDesign.

            • 3. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
              M Blackburn Level 3

              "it has to actually be A4 - it's being folded in half and then bound"

               

              And that is fundamentally incorrect. The sheet size is irrelevant, you set up the page size as the page size. Make a file with 8 pages or so and look in the Pages panel to understand. There are times when it is okay to work with the page size based on the spread, but that is never when you have more than two pages.

               

              PS there is no need to get sensitive. It is more important to learn and understand. There's nothing wrong with advising you to build a dummy, long time professionals do it all the time.

              • 4. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
                MMMeister2010 Level 1

                Thanks for the response, but I'm still a little confused by your recommendations.

                 

                Oh believe me, I know there's nothing wrong with mock-ups, they are crucial in the design process.

                 

                PS - I'm sorry if my questions seem so basic to you, but as I said before I am a first year student, keen to learn and improve my InDesign skills and I did in fact take your comments as a little patronising.

                • 5. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
                  M Blackburn Level 3

                  Bear in mind that this is a professional forum. Many of the people here, myself included, were waiting impatiently for the arrival of the first version of InDesign.

                   

                  I have no idea what you mean when you talk of 3D components. Let's just get the printed pages established first.

                   

                  How many pages are you anticipating? Punch in that number.  Select page size A5. You can leave the margins and bleed as you have them. Now, open your Pages Panel. See how the first page is to the right of the centre line? That represents the right half of the outside spread. The last page is the left side of the same spread. These two pages are printed on the same A4 sheet.

                   

                  The pages between the first and last page, show in spreads, but they are logical spreads, not the actual sheets of paper. Assuming eight pages, Page 2 prints on the same sheet as Page 7 (in a dummy, if it is made correctly, the page numbers will always add up to one more than the total number of pages in the book, and the even pages will be on the left, the odds pages on the right). The pages are imposed together on output. You don't work in printer's spreads because it would drive you crazy trying to follow the text flow. (Do you know the difference between reader's spreads and printer's spreads?)

                  • 6. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
                    MMMeister2010 Level 1

                    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with what you have just said.

                     

                    My book has 3D components which HAVE to fit through slits cut into one side of the paper. This therefore means that the pages cannot be double sided, as the tabs (from the 3D components) & cuts would be seen on the other side of the paper. Try and think of it as an adult version of a dress-up dolls book.

                     

                    To combat this, my teacher and I decided that it would be best to use the A4 page folded in half, rather than the method of page 2 printing on page 7 (I can't remember the correct term for that). The two edges of the A4 paper along with the 8 other pages, would be bound, leaving the folded edges on the righthand side of the A5 book. The 3D components are part of the brief and therefore dictate how the page is folded and the printing method.

                     

                    Taking into consideration all of that, I cannot follow the traditional method that you have just described.

                     

                    The photo shows the folded edges - this will side will NOT be bound. The cavity inside will be blank, allowing for inserts to be slid into cuts on the paper.

                     

                     

                    IMG_5020.JPG

                    • 7. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
                      M Blackburn Level 3

                      That you have folding pages only complicates the issue, it doesn't change anything I've said. InDesign only displays flat pages.

                       

                      From your image, I can't tell how many sheets of paper there are, or how they are folded. You have to unfold them to determine the page size. But still, if you are producing a booklet with facing pages, the page size will still only be the page size, and not the spread size -- unless each sheet is a separate entity, in which case you shouldn't be using facing pages in the first place.

                       

                      I'm starting to think this is not so easily explained in this forum. You should talk to the printer to make you a dummy and give you advice on how to lay it out.

                      • 8. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        OK, so  I THINK I understand what yo are doing. Pages "1" and "2" will be printed in the same side of one sheet, the other side will be blank. 3 & 4 will go on the next sheet, and so forth. The sheets will get printed, die cut, and folded, then assembled into a book block for binding (almost certainly glued, not stitched) using the loose edges in the binding.

                         

                        If that's correct, then I might set up as A4 non-facing pages since the back of all sheets will be blank and normal imposition is not possible, and on each page I would make two columns to represent the two pages that will be on that "leaf" in the book. Set the bleed top and bottom at the 3-5 mm, and left and right at the larger dimension as hese are the edges that will wind up being in the grind-off area for binding (what I presume the printer is calling the gutter). For the gutter between columns, use twice the value of what would be the outside margin on a regular book  because when folded iin half that gutter becomes the outside page margin. Set the top and bottom margins to whatever you like, and left and right will be what would normally be the margin at the spine area, so I would make them a little larger. You can add a vrtical guide at the centerline for reference on the master page. Objects that bleed to the outside of the finished book should extend exactly to that line, not beyond.

                         

                        The tricky part is if there will be objects that need to cross over adjacent spreads of the finished book. For those cases you could try setting the pages not to shuffle and drag two pages together in the Pages panel so you are looking at what is essentially a four-page spread.

                         

                        A different approach would be to set up as A5 facing pages, do the entire layout as if this were a "normal" book, then place those pages side-by-side into a new A4 document. This would allow you to use automatic page numbering, if you want it, and would make crossovers much easier.

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                        • 9. Re: Confusion regarding bleed/slug etc.
                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                          A picture is worth a thousand words. I suggest you give us a diagram of how the pages fit together in order to make sure we understand properly.