21 Replies Latest reply on Nov 22, 2011 7:07 AM by phyllisj9

    OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)

    phyllisj9 Level 2

      Allright this is a printing question, but I think the folks on this forum will know the answer!

       

      Each year I work on a Program Guide which has a trim size of 3.625" wide x 8.75" tall.  It has a 4-panel cover which folds into the back. The front cover is 3.625" wide (like the rest of the book), but each of the other 3 panels is successively .125" narrower than the panel next to it.  That means that the back cover is actually only 3.5" wide so it folds in short, such that it doesn't quite fully cover the width of the pages in the book.  As it's in the back and not so visible, it doesn't really matter. 

       

      And in case that paragraph is hard to follow, here's a visual:

      http://www.rotor.com/temp/CoverFoldingInstructions.pdf

       

      I worked from an existing template to create this cover, so I haven't modified these dimensions (basically the Guide's always been this way, so we kept going with it).

       

      My question is:  Does it need to fold short?  Is this template incorrect?  My co-workers want the fold-in part moved to the front of the book (making the front cover fold in rather than the back), but I'm guessing the short fold was to prevent the different folds in the cover from getting trimmed off.  However, I don't understand the printing process well enough to know for sure (and I wasn't around when the template was designed so am not sure what the logic was). 

       

      If both of the cover panels were the same width, would this cause problems in production?  Is it necessary for production to have it fold short?  These guides are saddle-stitched.  I don't know when trimming occurs in the process, but I'm guessing the short bit is so the folds are well out of the way of the trimmer (?).

       

      I hope this question makes sense.  I'm trying to figure out whether to tell my co-workers that they should or should not move the fold-in portion to the front.  I'm definitely going to talk to the printer before changing the template, but I'm just hoping to get some feedback and advice here as we're going to have a meeting discussing different changes we might make to this guide.  Unfortunately, I almost never get a chance to actually visit a printing press or I might be able to watch some of the production in process (and have a better feel for how things work).

       

      Thanks for any input,

      Phyllis

        • 1. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          I think your assesment is absolutely correct. An eight seems like a lot to me, as far as what's necessary to protect it from trim-off, but it might have to do with the folding equipment that is used to fold up the cover.

          • 2. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
            phyllisj9 Level 2

            Thanks.  I guess it's likely then that trying to fold in the front cover (instead of the back) would be a bad idea?  Because it'd have to fold in short (even if not a full eighth)?

             

            Thanks, Phyllis

            • 3. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              The other option is to bind and face trim the insides separately, then insert into the cover and stitch a second time. I've seen that done more than once. Ask the printer how much that will add to the cost.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                phyllisj9 Level 2

                Hey thanks I'll ask about that.  I imagine there must be some way to make this work since I occasionally design gatefold brochures (and never have to fold the cover short).

                 

                Thanks, Phyllis

                • 5. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                  phyllisj9 Level 2

                  And still trying to understand:

                   

                  I guess if a magazine had a gatefold cover, that cover must be printed and trimmed separately from the inside (because I know a magazine would never have a cover that came up short!) and then collated back with the inside for stitching?  And I should guess that that's more expensive than the type of production method which would be used for a little throwaway Program Guide like what I'm working on?

                   

                  Ah, still so much I don't know....

                   

                  Thanks, Phyllis

                  • 6. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    If you can find one, take another look at the magazine with the gatefold and I'll bet you'll see it really is held back. I've seen this disguised frequently by using the same image on the cover and the first inside page so there is no visual clue.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                      phyllisj9 Level 2

                      And now that you say that, I've seen what you're talking about before.  I thought it was a cutesy effect and didn't realize it was a cover-up!  I haven't worked on a lot of gatefold stuff (as you can probably tell from this thread) but didn't remember the short fold bit.  Good to know.  And is there a technical printing phrase for what I'm calling "folding short"?

                       

                      Thanks, Phyllis

                      • 8. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        I haven't actually done much of it either. I spend a lot of time picking brains of people with more experience than I have, and take plant tours of print shops and binderies whenever I can.

                         

                        The best thing you can do, I think, is talk to the folks doing the printing for you and ask for suggestions on what you can do that will work on their equipment.

                        • 9. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                          Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

                          And is there a technical printing phrase for what I'm calling "folding short"?

                           

                          Your PDF link is technically known as a double parallel fold. And, the amounts they are showing for the short folds are pretty extreme. As for the short folds on a double parallel, I have seen it both ways: a slight accommodation on short folds, and no accommodation.

                          • 10. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                            phyllisj9 Level 2

                            Thanks.  There's a lot to learn!

                             

                            Phyllis

                            • 11. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                              Colin Flashman Adobe Community Professional

                              @ phyllis

                               

                              without speaking to the printer in question, i'd imagine that the back cover panel would be shorter so that when the three-knife cut the top, bottom and foredges off of the book, it didn't cut the fold-panel off. we do precisely this at my work when we have books like this, which are not common. the .125" smaller for each panel is so that no air pockets form when the pages fold back onto themselves.

                               

                              the three-knife is effectively three knives working in two passes: the first pass has the knife which removes the foredge from the book; the second pass has two knives in a block which cuts the top and bottom off the book so that the book becomes finished size. this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQDViu3hPhc (one minute into the video; even though it is for burst/sewn books) works in the same principle.

                               

                              i don't agree that this is a double parallel fold though, this is a roll fold. a double parallel would be if the sheet folded in half; and then that folded in half again. that's not what's happening here - this is a quarter folding into another quarter and then folding into another quarter, meaning that the first folded page is hidden.

                               

                              there are international standards for fold patterns - have a look on google for the file "pagination catalogue 1.4.3". the pattern described by phillis is on p15 and is pattern F8-6, whereas a double parallel is on the same page but is pattern F8-2.

                               

                              to make sure i haven't misunderstood i've quickly mocked up an equivalent which i'd use here in australia (metric over here ) and screengrabbed it:

                               

                              isthiswhatisgoingon.png

                              hope that wasn't geeky enough

                              • 12. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                The best thing to do in these situations, I find, is to get a sheet of paper, and draw out the folding template on it. Fold the paper down, and make sure it's right. Mark each page as the cover, inside pages (1,2,3,4 etc.), back cover, etc. Whatever way is clear for you. Also mark the dimensions of each panel.

                                 

                                Unfold the paper, make the template in InDesign.

                                 

                                After you've done this a for a few hundred designs you should be able to do it in  your sleep

                                • 13. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                  phyllisj9 Level 2

                                  Hey cdflash,

                                   

                                  Thanks so much for the descriptive post, drawings, video-link, etc.  It's good to understand this a little better.  And now I get why they're making the fold so short.  I'll check into those pagination catalogues.  I guess my predecessor was more familiar with these types of covers than I.

                                   

                                  Thanks again,

                                  Phyllis

                                  • 14. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                    Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

                                    Phyllis, I posted that this type of fold would technically be a double parallel fold. That is incorrect. For whatever reason, I did not see the dimensional diagram that is within your original post, and after viewing it, this fold would be considered a roll fold.

                                    • 15. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                      phyllisj9 Level 2

                                      Thanks Jeffrey.  I'm glad to learn these terms.

                                      • 16. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                        phyllisj9 Level 2

                                        So we had a production meeting at work about this program guide.  And now the folks I work for want both the front and the back covers to be fold-outs (so I guess that'd be 6 panels with roll folds in 2 directions!).  I don't have the foggiest clue if that's possible, but I've got a print-rep (a broker who knows all about printing) coming in later to talk to me.  Assuming it's doable, I'll ask him about trimming the covers separately (thanks Peter for that suggestion!) so that they can be as wide as the pages.

                                         

                                        Anyone seen anything like that?

                                         

                                        And of course during the production meeting, the sales-folk were asking me the sizes the ads would be on these covers.  And I'm just like "You are going to have to wait....."

                                         

                                          This place is challenging.

                                        • 17. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                          It might be more practical at that point to make each panel a page and bind normally. You could perf for tearouts...

                                          • 18. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                            phyllisj9 Level 2

                                            Thanks, I just had a 45-minute meeting with a print-guy.  Went over all kinds of options!  He's going to come back to me with his recommendation on the cover.  It may be fold-outs but folded differently.  And we're most likely switching to coil binding anyway (since the folks I work with now also want to add in tabs), and he was highly recommending it. 

                                             

                                            I actually like this part of the process.  Kind of a puzzle.  But at a certain point I'm just completely relying on the printing folk to say what will and won't work.  'Cause I just don't know.....

                                            • 19. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                              Colin Flashman Adobe Community Professional

                                              the saddle stitched option with fold-out panels both sides (as described) certainly couldn't be done at my employers. i say this because my employer is a sheet-fed offset printer, and the max sheet size we can print on is 1020x720mm.  (based on my metric sample in an earlier post) doing the cover with an OFC and then OBC+2 panels had a total of 834mm across. add another 208+207 and that is 1249mm, which is not only wider than the largest sheet we can print, but also larger than our plates which are for a heidelberg speedmaster 105. wiro or coil... sure, but certainly not something wider than four feet across!

                                               

                                              if it was wiro or coil, i'd also rethink the panel fold-ins given that the measurements currently given are for a saddle stapled book, and a wiro book would have to compensate for making the panels smaller so that once closed, the panels wouldn't bump into the coil holding the cover onto the text.

                                              • 20. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                                phyllisj9 Level 2

                                                Thanks.  I'm a little confused by the metrics.  I don't have the final sizes for the panels (relying on the printer to provide), but I think the width of the cover is still less than 2 feet across (we end up with 6 panels, the widest of which is 3.625").  But he had a lot of stuff to figure out and may come back to me with different suggestions.  I'll update this thread in case folks are interested.  I like learning about the different printing options and what will and won't work.  Thanks.

                                                • 21. Re: OT: Printing Production Question (fold-in covers)
                                                  phyllisj9 Level 2

                                                  Well, the printer I spoke with can do exactly what we're asking (roll-fold in 2 directions).  Here's our new template.  I guess if he says it'll work, it should.  And the covers will be trimmed separately from the rest of the book so they shouldn't be shorter. 

                                                   

                                                  Of course I'm still waiting to see the price on this book .

                                                   

                                                  Thanks, Phyllis