16 Replies Latest reply on Nov 23, 2011 8:05 AM by Roel Van de Water

    Footnotes not support with XML?

    Peter B. Bailey Level 1

      Hi,

      So, I'm starting to get the hang of exporting XML from ID. It's not easy, not easy at all. Now, I've just discovered that none of my footnotes were exported to XML. So, in the ID document, I clicked inside a footnote. I told it to tag as a footnote, and, I get the message "Tagging of footnote text is not supported." What's that about? I've got many, many huge, legalese books, some with thousands of footnotes. Is this for real? InDesign won't support exporting footnotes to XML?

       

      Thanks,

      Peter

        • 1. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
          [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

          It is.

           

          Perhaps a friendly scripter could write a script to convert all of your footnotes to inline text, appropriately tagged.[*]

           

          [*] Not me, always have had problems with scripts trying to sensibly tag text. How do you mean, contents shift when you add tags? What's that all about?

          • 2. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
            Peter B. Bailey Level 1

            Hmmm. Sounds radical, but maybe necessary. Thank you.

            • 3. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
              David W. Goodrich Level 3

              That rang a bell: Indiscript's Restoring the Footnotes into the Story might be a place to look.

              • 4. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                Peter B. Bailey Level 1

                Indiscript? Never heard of it. But, I'll find it and dive in. Thanks for the tip.

                • 5. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                  So, I'm starting to get the hang of exporting XML from ID. It's not easy, not easy at all.

                  It sounds like things are going terribly, terribly wrong, actually.

                  Did you explain somewhere why you decided IDML wasn't the right answer?

                  If so could you point me there? If not, could you do so here?

                   

                  It sounds like you are doing the wrong kind of work here...

                  • 6. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                    Peter B. Bailey Level 1

                    IDML might be XML, but, it's XML for InDesign and really nobody else. It's stuffed with typographic attributes that are meaningless to other users.

                    • 7. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                      I think you've fundamentally misunderstood the world of XML and you need to go chill with your XML gurus in meditation for a while.

                       

                      XML is all about transformation. You should pretty much never expect to take an XML file from app #1 and feed it to app #2. Insteaad, you take the output of #1 and transform it into suitable outputinput for app #2. (Typically with XSLT, which is hard to learn, but not as hard as what you're doing).

                       

                      The fact that InDesign has a bazillion tags and attributes in the IDML is irrelevent. You just ignore those tags. All you care about is what falls under a <ParaStyleRange/> (to a first approximation. The reality is you care about probably 20 tags and not 1. But not 2,000).

                       

                      Especially when your task is repurposing existing long InDesign documents not designed from the ground-up with XML in mind, this seems like a terrible terrible way to go. Start with the IDML and ignore the tags you don't need/want.

                       

                       

                      So...there might be reasons not to use IDML, and yes it's Complexity might be one of them, but the fact that it has extra tags is really not one of them. (Number of tags is highly correlated with complexity, of course).

                       

                      p.s.: you keep saying "typographic attributes" but I think that's not really true. Most of the attributes aren't typographic. And I'm not being picky with the word "attribute" which as you know in XML-land refers to the stuff inside the tag brackets, like

                       <tagname attribute1="value1">blah blah</tagname>
                      

                       

                      Message was edited by: John Hawkinson. Outputs are not inputs.

                      • 8. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                        Peter B. Bailey Level 1

                        Well, yes, I don't claim to be an expert on XML. I do work, though, with a team of experts in SGML, the granddaddy of XML.

                        I've just remembered that IDML is a compressed format. Stupidly, I've been opening the files with a text editor and wondering why I'm seeing so much binary data. So, I'll uncompress an IDML file and then send the respective XML to my colleague. I'm sure it'll be more useable.

                         

                         

                        Thanks,

                        Peter

                        • 9. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                          Peter B. Bailey Level 1

                          So, John, I've done that and i've sent the file to my colleague. When I uncompressed the IDML file, I noticed that it spat out 340 XML files. What's that about? Why can't it just make one file?

                          • 10. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                            John Hawkinson Level 5

                            Half a league! Half a league!

                             

                             

                            So, John, I've done that and i've sent the file to my colleague. When I uncompressed the IDML file, I noticed that it spat out 340 XML files. What's that about?

                             

                            'Forward, the Light Brigade!'

                            Was there a man dismay'd?

                             

                            Well, I'm not the IDML designer, how should I know? Apparently they thought it would be better than one humongous file.

                             

                            Why can't it just make one file?

                             

                            Theirs not to make reply,

                            Theirs not to reason why,

                            Theirs but to do and die:

                             

                            Obviously it could be.

                             

                            the IDML spec offers two rationales. First:

                             

                            7.1 Separate Content for Efficient Processing

                            InDesign is often part of workflows where documents are broken into pieces so that they might

                            be worked on in parallel. In a magazine production process, for example, sections, articles, or

                            individual spreads might be given to different graphic artists or layout staff; stories can be given

                            to different writers and editors. The same thing can be true for the process of assembling an

                            IDML document. Stories might be populated with text from RSS feeds; informational graphics on

                            a given spread might be generated from spreadsheet data.

                            In addition, InDesign documents contain a large number of entities that might be standardized

                            across an organization or publication. Document preferences, styles, fonts, and colors, for

                            example, might be common to all production processes for a particular job. These preferences can

                            be stored in separate XML files and added to an IDML package.

                            All of the parts of an IDML file are put together in a Zip-compressed archive to represent one InDesign

                            document. Inside this container, a specific “master” file defines the relationships between

                            the component files included in the container.

                             

                            Into the valley of Death

                            Rode the six hundred.

                             

                            But also later on:

                            8 IDML Document Structure

                            When you export a document as IDML, InDesign

                            creates a Zip archive containing multiple XML

                            files. These files use IDML markup to represent the significant parts of the InDesign

                            document.

                            We split the content of the InDesign document into separate files so that you can work

                            on specific parts of the document—the stories containing the text in the document, for

                            example—without disturbing other document content, such as colors or imported graphics.

                            This compartmentalization makes it easier for automated processes to work on the parts of a

                            document in parallel. It also makes it easier for you to store and re-use fragments of InDesign

                            documents.

                            In addition, this approach means that a future version of InDesign

                            will be able to take advantage

                            of multithreading when exporting or importing IDML, which will result in better performance.

                             

                            Cannon to the right of them,

                            Cannon to the left of them,

                            Cannon in front of them

                             


                            • 11. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                              Peter B. Bailey Level 1

                              Thanks, John. Yeh, well, I don't buy it. I don't see why IDML export has anything at all to do with the workflows you've described. I'm talking here about a very boring, very long legal book. No images, no movies, just text and more text.

                               

                              Cheers,

                              Peter

                              • 12. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                                John Hawkinson Level 5

                                Theirs not to make reply,

                                Theirs not to reason why,

                                Theirs but to do and die:

                                • 13. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                                  Thanks, John. Yeh, well, I don't buy it. I don't see why IDML export has anything at all to do with the workflows you've described. I'm talking here about a very boring, very long legal book. No images, no movies, just text and more text.

                                  Huh? IDML Export has to work for everything. You might not use it for those workflows, but other people do. And it is designed to accomodate them.

                                   

                                  When can their glory fade?

                                  O the wild charge they made!

                                  All the world wonder'd.

                                  Honour the charge they made!

                                  Honour the Light Brigade,

                                  Noble six hundred!

                                  • 14. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                                    Peter B. Bailey Level 1

                                    Thanks for all your help, John. What I was referring to was the multiple xml file output, instead of just one file. I guess there are ways to concatenate a bunch of xml files, but, I just don't see why it should be needed.

                                     

                                    -Peter

                                    • 15. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                                      Peter:

                                      What I was referring to was the multiple xml file output, instead of just one file.

                                      Yes, so was I! Sections 7.1 and section 8 both address this question. Did you not read them, quoted in post #10, with the bad formatting?

                                       

                                      What did you think I was referring to? (Surely not some 19th century English poem?)

                                       

                                      Into the valley of Death

                                      Rode the six hundred.

                                      • 16. Re: Footnotes not support with XML?
                                        Roel Van de Water

                                        Hi Peter,

                                         

                                         

                                        If all of your text is in one story, it is most likely stored in just one of those XML files.

                                        The others describe page layouts, paragraph formats and what have you. Just discard those and find the one you need.

                                         

                                        It's even easier if you export that story to InCopy (.icml) and take it from there.

                                        You can do this from Edit>InCopy>Export>Selection, make sur the cursor is in teh story (textflow) you want to export.

                                        Just the single file to clean up with the footnotes right where you'd expect them.

                                         

                                        If you have a lot of unconnected text frames though, you're in trouble. But it doesn't like you're in that situation.

                                         

                                        Cheers, Roel.