27 Replies Latest reply on Nov 13, 2011 10:11 AM by Peter Spier

    Words dropping out of PDF CS4

    TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

      Hi,

       

      An observant author going over a PDF proof of his book noticed that some

      words were missing at the end of a sentence. I checked in the InDesign

      file, and they're there. I tried exporting just that page and indeed,

      the words are missing in the PDF.

       

      Anyone come across this?

       

      This is a 144-page text only book, and the error is occuring on p. 120.

       

      I export to PDF via the Press Quality preset.

       

      InDesign CS4 (6.0.5). The font is Garamond Premier Pro.

       

      Any ideas?

       

      Ariel

       

        • 1. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Show in overprint preview?

          • 3. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            Ariel, that last post came in blank...

            • 4. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
              TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              That's a shame. I'll try again:

               

              Everything's fine in overprint preview.

               

              (Incidentally, I'm on the ME version).

               

              I've created a one-page file of the problematic page. I'd be very

              interested if anyone can replicate this problem. It's line 28 the has

              the last 2/3 of the line disappear when a PDF is created. Here's the link:

               

              www.freelancebookdesign.com/testdoc.indd

               

              Thanks,

              Ariel

              • 5. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                I'll give it a shot. What settings have you been using?

                • 6. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Yup about half the line dropping out here, too with PDF/X-4 andCS5.5 (and a missing font).

                   

                  I seem to remember some other reports of troubles with that particular font. Does it still do it if use something else (I know, a horrible thought for recomposition!)?

                  • 7. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                    TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Really weird. You're not using the ME version, right?

                     

                    I was just exporting to PDF via Press Quality.

                     

                    Tried here with Bembo Book MT Std, and Adobe Garamond Pro (as well as

                    Garamond Premier Pro), and get the same result with all three fonts.

                     

                    Ariel

                    • 8. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      I see the text that drops out is using Garamond Premier Pro, which is not missing, and has never caused me any trouble before. Still drops out after a trip through inx, too. I'm stumped.

                      • 9. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Right, I'm on the US version, and .inx should have stripped out any ME plugin info. VERY strange.

                        • 10. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                          TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I tried inxing, idmling, and recomposing all stories. Nothing helps.

                           

                          Ariel

                          • 11. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                            TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Aha! Switching from Adobe World Ready Paragraph Composer to Adobe

                            Paragraph Composer fixes the PDF output for me, even though there is no

                            visible difference in InDesign.

                             

                            Can you test that in CS5.5 US?

                             

                            Ariel

                            • 12. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              Bingo!

                               

                              It had no composer selected when it First opens (not so surprising, I think -- does my version recognize the WR Composer without World Tools?).

                              • 13. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                !!

                                 

                                I think CS5.5 has all the composers and ME stuff built in. World Tools

                                just gives you a UI to control them.

                                 

                                Do you have a choice of composers in the flyout of the control panel? ME

                                users have 4 options: (World Ready and non-World Ready, each with a

                                paragraph and line composer option = 4).

                                 

                                Doesn't it strike you as strange that initially NO composer was selected

                                for that paragraph?

                                 

                                Ariel

                                • 14. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                  TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Sorry, reading more carefully what you say, it seems clear that you

                                  don't have a World Ready Paragraph (or Line) composer option, and that

                                  therefore nothing was selected, so it's not strange.

                                   

                                  Still, this clearly has got to be a fairly serious bug in the World

                                  Ready Composer. I'm going to log it.

                                   

                                  Thanks,

                                  Ariel

                                  • 15. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    I see only paragraph or single line composers listed, no mention of World Ready. I think the composer is there, just not accessible to the UI without a script or plugin in the non-ME version.

                                     

                                    Perhaps no composer was selected because I couldn't see your previous ME composer selection. Do you see that in the flyout on your end?

                                    • 16. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                      Cross-posting.

                                      • 17. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                        TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        (Cross posting indeed!)

                                         

                                        Back to the thread, I think you're right. In fact, probably that

                                        paragraph was actually using the World Ready composer also in your

                                        InDesign installation, and, as you say, that choice is simply not

                                        visible in the UI. So when you switched to the regular Adobe Paragraph

                                        Composer, everything went back to normal.

                                         

                                        Which just shows that those guys at Winsoft who developed the World

                                        Ready composer could really have done a better job. Thankfully Adobe's

                                        taken that over, and they've got an open ear right now for any bugs in

                                        this department, so I'll definitely alert them to this tomorrow.

                                         

                                        Thanks,

                                        Ariel

                                        • 18. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                          Welcome.

                                           

                                          And I'm glad you discovered what the problem is.

                                          • 19. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                            TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            So am I. And in this case the workaround is simple -- switching

                                            paragraph composers -- but if there had been any Hebrew or other RTL

                                            languages in the paragraph, that wouldn't have been possible. Now that

                                            we've figured this out, I think it would be worth trying to switch to

                                            the single-line World-Ready composer if anybody happens to get stuck on

                                            this issue.

                                             

                                            In fact, this has happened to me in the past, with Hebrew, but this is

                                            the first time I've been able, with your help, to isolate this issue.

                                             

                                            This is a really nasty little bug, because catching the issue depends on

                                            an alert proofreader or author, and neither are common (authors tend not

                                            to be too alert, and proofreaders have become a luxury that some

                                            publishers seem to forgo these days for no apparent reason -- instead

                                            they rely on the authors).

                                             

                                            Ariel

                                            • 20. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                              M Blackburn Level 3

                                              I think switching paragraph composers was probably coincidental. Turning off ligatures (and/or turning them back on) could have the same effect.

                                               

                                              I suspect the real problem is that there is a gremlin in between the f's in different. If it was the problem, it could still cause you problems. You can easily delete it by moving your cursor through the word and delete the stutter. Text Wrangler has a Zap Gremlin feature.

                                              • 21. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                                TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Gremlin? Interesting. It's true that there's a discretionary hyphen in

                                                the middle of the problematic word, but I must have added that on

                                                purpose at some stage. It shouldn't be causing a problem.

                                                 

                                                However, I experimented with adding discretionary hyphens between

                                                ligatures and that really seems to hit the nail on the head. The World

                                                Ready Paragraph Composer stumbles whenever it encounters a discretionary

                                                hyphen in between a ligature (so far this is happening only with various

                                                f-ligatures, strangely, but not the font's Th ligature), and the rest of

                                                the line comes out blank in the PDF if there are any.

                                                 

                                                However, ther regular Adobe paragraph composer has no such difficulties,

                                                and, as you say, switching off ligatures also improves things -- but I

                                                do think it's something to do with a combination of ligatures and the

                                                World Ready composer.

                                                 

                                                Thanks,

                                                Ariel

                                                • 22. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                  Interesting. Here the the text shows no sign of a discretionary hyphen in layout view (perhaps becasue of the ligature?). The only way I was able to locate it was by using find/change to search. Removing it was enough to make the original doc export correctly, even without touching the composer.

                                                   

                                                  I tried to reproduce it in a new doc, first by setting my own type with ff ligatures separated by a discretionary hyphen (no problem) and by both copying the frame and copying the text (both from CS4 and CS5.5) into new CS4 files. In all cases there were no drops that I could detect, but the CS4 copy procedures caused the text ordering and punctuation to go haywire and show hebrew characters in the footnote markers. Copying the text from CS5.5 the order and punctuation is correct, but the footnote markers are no longer superscript (probably a result of the WRC being in CS5.5?).

                                                   

                                                  I think, from this testing, it's probably a bug in how the ME version handles the discretionary hyphen inside a ligature.

                                                  • 23. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                                    TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    I think you're right that it's a bug with how the World Ready Para

                                                    Composer handles discretionary hyphens inside ligatures. I filed the bug

                                                    report.

                                                     

                                                    Thanks,

                                                    Ariel

                                                    • 24. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                                      M Blackburn Level 3

                                                      Being unfamiliar with ME I didn't realize the World Composer was part of InDesign, so I guess my Text Wrangler referral was useless. Still, a buggy invisible character is the definition of gremlin.

                                                       

                                                      FWIW, the discretionary hyphen is visiible in the story editor.

                                                      • 25. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                        FWIW, the discretionary hyphen is visiible in the story editor.

                                                        Yeah, once you turn on invisibles there, too. Never realized before that layout and story editors worked independently as far as display of non-printing characters (nor did I have an inling that a discretionary hyphen doesn't show in a ligature in layout view), so I got a valuable lesson out of this.

                                                        • 26. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                                          M Blackburn Level 3

                                                          "I got a valuable lesson out of this."

                                                           

                                                          ?? Show invisibles is either on or off for me. And discretionary hyphens DO show in ligatures for me  -- in my own files.

                                                          • 27. Re: Words dropping out of PDF CS4
                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                            OK, you made me go back and look at a new file, and in MY file it's just like yours- one setting for both layout and story editor, and the hphen shows inthe layout, too.

                                                             

                                                            Must be another anomaly due to the ME version that Ariel's file didn't behave that way here.