16 Replies Latest reply on Mar 4, 2018 11:18 PM by Dov Isaacs

    Ligature issue in PS - PDF

    Sen.Soft Level 1

      Any one help me on this,

       

      We are creating PS to PDF from IndesignCS3, with Ligatures ON,

       

      In PDF copy the word "Pacific" and placed into search option,

       

       

       

      1. There was a space between character "fi[space]c in PDF search,

      2. Alfo not able to find the word "pacific" type in search.

       

      Font Times (Type1)

       

      Pacific

      Pacifi c

        • 1. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          What happens if you create the PDF through recommended method of export?

           

           

           

          Bob

          • 2. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
            Sen.Soft Level 1

            No, our official method is Print ps to PDF, When we do so, we get this kind of error.

            • 3. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Sen.Soft wrote:

               

              No, our official method is Print ps to PDF, When we do so, we get this kind of error.

              We understand that. Adobe recommends EXPORTING to PDF fom ID, rather than distilling. Is there a sound reason why you think you need to make Postscript?

              • 4. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                That is a horribly archaic and troublesome method of PDF creation. I asked you to at least try to export and let us know what happens.

                 

                 

                 

                Bob

                • 5. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                  Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                  There are a number of reasons why creating PDF via distillation of PostScript from InDesign is a very bad idea.

                   

                  You've just stumbled upon one such reason! The PostScipt generated from InDesign is optimized for printing and not for generation of PDF. When you use ligatures, you lose the ability to search for most content using ligatures in Acrobat or Reader. When creating PDF via direct export, PDF alternate text information is inserted in the PDF such that ligatures, small caps, alternate characters, etc. that you typically find in fine typography don't interfere with the ability to search PDF files.

                   

                  Quite frankly, the only rational reason that we know of for creating PDF from distillation of PostScript from InDesign is to create smaller PDF files in some instances. However, improvements in direct creation of PDF from InDesign have been narrowing that sometimes-advantage over the releases and some fixes in the next full version of InDesign should eliminate much of the remaining bloat (which is primarily metadata).

                   

                  CS3 is also quite frankly a fairly old version of the software.

                   

                            - Dov

                  • 6. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                    Jaswin

                    Bob Levine wrote:

                     

                    That is a horribly archaic and troublesome method of PDF creation. I asked you to at least try to export and let us know what happens.

                     

                    Bob

                     

                    This is not an agreeable answer Bob, what Dov Isaacs said above is not right. It is a major issue from Indesign, while we go through PostScript to InDesign. Not exactly on all files but it happens. We are now at the end process and next stage is the printer still we didnt find a right solution for this.

                    • 7. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                      SASEKUMAR Level 1

                      Why other software's like (Arbor Text and LaTeX) postscipt->pdf using Distiller server don't have this issue with ligatures on. Is this a bug in InDesign postscript creation?

                       

                      PS->PDF creation is one of the best optimized way to create pdf and do you think its a bad idea? If we export InDesign->PDF, Device N color appears in images and this is not acceptable in our customer printer preflight settings.

                       

                      There are a number of reasons why creating PDF via distillation of PostScript from InDesign is a very bad idea.

                       

                      You've just stumbled upon one such reason! The PostScipt generated from InDesign is optimized for printing and not for generation of PDF. When you use ligatures, you lose the ability to search for most content using ligatures in Acrobat or Reader. When creating PDF via direct export, PDFalternate text information is inserted in the PDF such that ligatures, small caps, alternate characters, etc. that you typically find in fine typography don't interfere with the ability to search PDF files.

                       

                      Quite frankly, the only rational reason that we know of for creating PDF from distillation of PostScript from InDesign is to create smaller PDF files in some instances. However, improvements in direct creation of PDF from InDesign have been narrowing that sometimes-advantage over the releases and some fixes in the next full version of InDesign should eliminate much of the remaining bloat (which is primarily metadata).

                       

                      CS3 is also quite frankly a fairly old version of the software.

                       

                                - Dov

                       

                      • 8. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                        Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I totally agree with Bob and Dov. Using the PostScript method may work in a limited fashion for some old workflows, but it has severe limitations. It will never be changed. It is a dead end. You may not like it, but that's just the way it is.

                        • 9. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                          Sen.Soft Level 1

                          Thanks to All, If any one provide a direct answer for this issue [PS-PDF] its most appreciable.,

                          • 10. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                            Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                            (1)     It is irrelevant what Arbor Text and LaTeX do in terms of PostScript generation or PDF creation via PostScript. As I indicated, the PostScript from InDesign, Illustrator, and Photoshop is not optimized for PDF creation, but rather what PostScript is best at, printing. You cannot optimize for both simultaneously.

                             

                            (2)     Creation of PDF via PostScript hardly optimal in any way. You lose color management, live transparency, the ability to search and/or touchup text in many situations, etc. How is that optimal?

                             

                            (3)     Yes, DeviceN does show up in PDF exported from InDesign, specifically when you place grayscale imagery into InDesign. Such grayscale images are exported using DeviceN Separation Black which is logically equivalent to DeviceCMYK=(0,0,0,K). There is nothing wrong with that. Unless you have a RIP that doesn't conform to the PostScript Language 3 or PDF 1.3 specification (depending on whether the RIP consumes PostScript or PDF respectively). If you have customer printer preflight settings that reject DeviceN Separation Black or don't understand that it is equivalent to and will render as DeviceCMYK (0,0,0,K), the problem is not with InDesign, but with the customer printer preflight settings or the knowledge of whoever setup such settings.

                             

                                 - Dov

                            • 11. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                              Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                              You have been given a direct (and from myself an official Adobe) response. There is no fix for the issue you describe since PDF generation from InDesign is officially supported via the export function with which this issue does not occur.

                               

                                        - Dov

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                                Jaswin Level 1

                                Thanks for your direct response Dov

                                • 13. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                                  Sen.Soft Level 1

                                  Thank you Dov Isaacs,

                                  • 14. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                                    johnc96021274 Level 1

                                    Dov:  Related to this same issue but fast-forward to 2018 - Microsoft Powerpoint 2011 and 2016 for Mac create PDFs with ligatures automatically active. My client built over 12,000 pages of training materials using MS default Calibri Opentype font. The PDF's we generate contain every ligature under the sun and are useless as a searchable PDF.  Do you know of a way to suppress ligatures by any means in the PDF creation process? It is not a feature of powerpoint unfortunately.  I have tried PDF generation by  Save As PDF, Export to PDF, and Export to Postscript which I then distilled.  All three methods produce a PDF with ligatures.  ~John Costa

                                    • 15. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                                      BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                      Using ligatures should have no effect on searching in a PDF.

                                      • 16. Re: Ligature issue in PS - PDF
                                        Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                        Interesting. On the Windows version of PowerPoint, this doesn't seem to be an issue. No ligatures at all are possible and no option to either turn them on or off.

                                         

                                        I'll check on my Mac in the office tomorrow with the combination of PowerPoint and MacOS with Calibri, a font that indeed supports a vast array of standard and historical ligatures.

                                         

                                        Ironically, Word on both platforms does provide granular support of enabling or disabling ligatures.

                                         

                                        That having been said, two points:

                                         

                                        (1)     By the time any Adobe software gets content from PowerPoint, the glyph selection and character spacing due to same has already been performed. Our software can't change that.

                                         

                                        (2)     Acrobat's search function has always worked with ligatures. Perhaps you can provide us a sample PowerPoint and resultant PDF file from MacOS in which this isn't the case?

                                         

                                                  - Dov

                                        1 person found this helpful