18 Replies Latest reply on Dec 1, 2011 4:42 AM by Peter Spier

    Text frame justify for whole of document

    highshore13

      I have a 260-page document (a book) using InDesign CS3.

      I wish to have the text on all pages verticially justified.

      How can I do this for the whole of document rather than the tedious task of frame-by-frame, page-by-page?

        • 1. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
          Grant H Level 4

          verticially justified

          huh: left right full center...etc

           

          anyway:

          create an object style with the justfied style. then press command F or edit/find change. then search: document > change Object format - select the style > type Text frames > change all.

           

          G

          • 2. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            Vertically justified means the text fills the frame from top to bottom, regardless of the number of lines (a potentailly poor choice in my opinion, but that's not the topic of discussion). Since the OP wants to d the whole document his way, I don't see a need for a new object style -- just edit the [Basic Text Frame] style which is already most likely in use.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
              Grant H Level 4

              Vertically justified

              oh yeah... that...  didnt think about that... in a book... shoo... suicide.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                highshore13 Level 1

                Many thanks to all who replied. I have since found the answer is to do a Find/Replace after selecting all text and using Object etc.

                 

                It works perfectly.

                 

                Peter it's not really "a poor choice" to vertically justify text in a book, especially such as the novels I am dealing with.

                 

                It is only the final page of a chapter, which generally does not fill an entire page, where one needs to apply a Top align.

                 

                Again, thanks everyone for prompt and helpful replies. The system works!

                 

                Cheers,

                 

                Tony

                • 5. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  highshore13 wrote:

                   

                   

                  Peter it's not really "a poor choice" to vertically justify text in a book, especially such as the novels I am dealing with.

                   

                  Since you brought it up again, here's why I think vertical justification, even in a novel, is a poor choice. Most readers prefer to see text aligned across columns and pages in a spread. While this is possible using vertical justification, it is extremely difficult to do when any paragraph is supposed to have additional space between it and it's neighbors. The use of a strict baseline grid and either forcing alignment to it, or setting additonal spacing to total an increment of the leading for body text (on which the baseline grid is based), will keep frames full (unless Keep options force lines from the bottom of a column to the next column, and there are many tricks for dealing with that) without altering the line spacing on a frame by frame basis (as happens with VJ), and removes the need to change the justification on the last frame. There simply is no reason to need vertical justification.

                  • 6. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                    highshore13 Level 1

                    Whoops ... it seems I've sparked a discussion that I didn't want or need to have. However ...

                     

                    "Most readers prefer ...."  Who says, where is the statistical proof or is this an unsubstantiated sweeping generalisation?

                     

                    The books I am dealing with (novels)  do not have additional space between paragraphs which, by study of the current marketplace and publishing house preferences, shows this to be the norm. Line spacing is even from the opening chapter to the final page.

                     

                    But, as stated, there are usually shortfalls of text on the final page of  chapters and on these pages I revert to the Top alignment.

                     

                    All the rest as described above would appear to be adding complexity for technology's sake.

                     

                    Cheers,

                     

                    Tony

                    • 7. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      If all the text has the same spacing, you don't need vertical justification to keep the frames filled.

                      • 8. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                        highshore13 Level 1

                        Whoops ... it seems I've sparked a discussion that I didn't want or need to have. However ...

                         

                        "Most readers prefer ...."  Who says, where is the statistical proof or is this an unsubstantiated sweeping generalisation?

                         

                        The books I am dealing with (novels)  do not have additional space between paragraphs which, by study of the current marketplace and publishing house preferences, shows this to be the norm. Line spacing is even from the opening chapter to the final page.

                         

                        But, as stated, there are usually shortfalls of text on the final page of  chapters and on these pages I revert to the Top alignment.

                         

                        All the rest as described above would appear to be adding complexity for technology's sake.

                         

                        Cheers,

                         

                        Tony

                        • 9. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                          highshore13 Level 1

                          Yes, you do need vertical justification to keep the frames filled., As already stated, it is probably irrelevant on pages where the frame is full and text flows tfo subsequent pages (as this occurs automatically) but it is necessary on the final pages of chapters where text often does not fill the entire frame. On such pages it is necessary to change justifcation from Justify to Top. On all other pages Justify is required, hence my original query and the solution that saved a page-by-page adjustment.

                           

                          Cheers,

                           

                          Tony

                          • 10. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Wait, are you saying you want to fill the frame on the last page, even if it has only three lines, or is a less drastic 6 lines short? That is, in my opinion, completely absurd, and changing the spacing on the last page just to make it full is about the ugliest bit of book design I can think of. I have NEVER seen a book set that way, nor heard of anyone other than you, if you really mean that, advocating for it.

                             

                            Carefully crafted books use a leading value coordinated with the size of the type that is designed to lead the reader's eye from line to line naturally. When the spacing is too large you find yourself reading the same line over.

                            • 11. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                              Michael Gianino Level 4

                              Peter, not to speak for the OP, but I think he is saying the opposite of that. He wants the first 15 pages of a 16-page chapter to be justified, and the 16th (if it has fewer than a full page of lines) to be top aligned. That said, I tend to agree with Peter. If pages 1-15 all have single-spaced flowing text with no space between paragraphs, there should be no reason to justify vertically when it can be done with the leading setting of the body paragraph style.

                               

                              Unless I'm missing the OP's point.

                              • 12. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                                highshore13 Level 1

                                Yes Peter, totally absurd. Agreed. Of course you have never seen a book set that way. We seem to be at cross purposes. To sum up, I asked a question, got the help I needed and the problem has been solved. The book is looking good and precisely the way a book should look, regardless of whether or not the experts feel I am going about it the correct way.

                                As before, many thanks for all your help and ongoing interest. Question asked ... answer given ... problem solved ... no need for further debate.

                                 

                                Cheers all,

                                 

                                Tony

                                • 13. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  Tony,

                                   

                                  I don't believe anyone is trying to force you to do things any particular way, but I clearly don't understand what it is you want to do.  The point I've been trying to make is that if you want text that starts out evenly spaced to fill frames page after page there isn't any requirement to force ID to adjust the spacing artificially by setting vertical justification to Justified. Text set with one size and one leading value is always going to take up the same space per line so it's just a matter of making your frame the correct size to begin with and setting the first baseline properly. The only reason to force vertical justification would be if the line count will be different from frame to frame and you want both top and bottom lines to align at the cost of misalignment on the rest (or wide gaps between paragraphs, depending on the VJ settings you choose).

                                   

                                  I'm just trying to offer advice that might make your work easier, but please do whatever you want. I absolutely don't want to turn this into some sort of design debate or fight about what is right or wrong. What is right for you is what works, and that's really all that matters.

                                  • 14. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    @Michael,

                                     

                                    I initially had the same impression, but after his repitition I became less sure. If Tony wants to explain, and maybe provide a screen shot or two to illustrate, I'd love some clarification, and I'd be more than willing to change my postion if there's a logical reason to do so.

                                    • 15. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                                      highshore13 Level 1

                                      Yes it is all very frustrating as I am sure if we could sit down and look at what I am doing, there would be a simple explanation. I don't fully understand all your technical jargon (you are light years ahead of me in experience of ID) and maybe am confusing the issue. All I can say is I have achieved what I wanted to achieve and the book looks the way it should - just like any other book. If I have gone about it in a complicatred way, so be it.

                                      When I first fed the text (from MS Word) into the text frames there was a slight gap at the foot of the pages. But clicking on Justify in the Text Frame box, this problem was solved. However, on the final pages of each chapter, where there was usually less than a page-full of text, it would obviously spread out the text with huge line spacing. On these pages I click Top alignment.

                                      Hope this clarifies things.  Whatever, it works.

                                      Cheers

                                       

                                      Tony

                                      • 16. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                        Actually, that clears up a lot. The slight gap is the result of the frame not being an exact fit for the specified leading, or maybe the choice of first baseline offset (choosing Leading, instead of the default Ascender, in the text frame options, I think is a fairly standard recoomendation for book work, and it makes calculating the frame height easier).

                                         

                                        In any case, I think perhaps you see the size of the margin to be an important absolute dimension, where I would consider it to be a target, and a slight variation would be expected depending on the size of the page, the chosen target margin values, and the type specification. The actual depth of the text block (and the frame require to hold it) would be determined by multiplying the leading by the number of lines per page, with the margins being adjusted accordingly.

                                         

                                        In your situation, for next time, if you want the last baseline at a precise position and are willing to increase the line spacing slightly to achieve it, I would suggest measuring the height of the frame (in points) you've chosen after setting the margins, then divide that by the target leading for your text. Drop any fraction from the result and devide the height by the interger value you got in the last step (iin other words, divide the total height by the number of lines that will fit) and use the result from that calculation, including the decimal fraction, if any, as the leading for your text in the paragraph styles.

                                         

                                        The result should be the same on full pages as if you used vertical justification, and as a bonus the spacing will be the same on your short pages too.  Using VJ on full pages, but not on your chapter ends, under your current method, is giving you slightly different line spacing on that last page. It sounds like the difference is small, and you might not notice it at all in the finished book except in a case where the chapter ends on a right-hand page and is only one or two lines short of full, and even then possibly only if you were to place a straightedge across the pages if the margins at the gutter are wide enough, but it would probably be painfully obvious if you had two columns per page. You'll definitely see it in the layout, though, if you drag a horizontal guide down across a spread with a short frame on one side and a full frame on the other, if you want a better understanding of what I'm trying to articulate.

                                        • 17. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                                          highshore13 Level 1

                                          Wow!

                                          My head is spinning.

                                          I am sure everything you say is absolutely correct - but it is almost unintelligible to me. I need to be shown, rather than told because a slab of technological text such as the above is like swimming through mud.

                                          I will do my best to study and learn and am fully appreciative of your continuing interest and help.

                                          One point: I am setting margins in line with a printer/publisher's requirements so it is therefore what you would probably term  an absolute dimension.

                                          Again, thanks.

                                           

                                          Tony

                                          • 18. Re: Text frame justify for whole of document
                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                            I wouldn't consider the margins to be sacrosanct, more of a  minimum dimension guidline. If the bottom margin winds up being a couple of points taller it's not a big deal. Many publishers actually don't specify a bottom margin, but instead give a top margin and a type specification of X number of lines set at Y points on Z leading (and they might specify the width of the block rather than both inside and outside margins, too).

                                             

                                            Anyway, here are a couple of illustrations of a two-page spread with half-inch margins (because that's what's set as the default in my prefs, not because they are useful for anything in prticular) and text set at 12 pts on 14.4 pt leading, the default auto setting. For books you generally want to avoid "automatic" leading and set a fixed amount, but that's a different discussion. I hope this are not too small to see on the forum.

                                             

                                            First, here's the text before applying the vertical justification:

                                            Vertical Justification1.png

                                            The text nearly fills the frame on the left, but not quite because the frame height is not an exact multiple of the leading. Look at the guide running along the bottom of the text on the right and notice that the text on the left also aligns with that guide.

                                             

                                            Now look at it after applying vertical justification to the frame on the left:

                                            Vertical Justification2.png

                                            The spacing is increased very slightly so the text now completley fills the frame, but look at the guide again and compare it with the image above. Do you see the misalignment?