11 Replies Latest reply on Dec 4, 2011 2:07 PM by Peter Spier

    Master page items not showing on newly created pages

    cocteau3

      I'm using InDesign CS3 on the Mac. I created a simple book layout using two master page styles. There is a title text box, and a body text box on one master page I call "C". Master page "A" has only header and text body. When I create new pages using the master pages, I see the guides I created, but I do not see the title or body text boxes. I double checked the master pages, and they are on them. I should be able to drag the master page icon to create a new page, and then enter text into the boxes, as I have done before on 12 pages before these. I changed some margins only since using the file, and did so on the master pages. I clicked "apply master pages" and selected appropriate pages, but this did not help. The text boxes on the masters are still not clickable on the document pages.

       

      I see dotted lines outlining where the boxes are, but when I click with the cursor, nothing happens. This is also happening on a different file that has not been altered since using it successfully. ?????

       

      Here's something I noticed: When I click on the document page, and then select "override master page items" then the text boxes can be accessed and used. BUT, I don't want to override the items, I want to USE them. What sense, if any, does this make? I did not select "override master page items" when making the first 12 pages and all the boxes were useable then... I kinda get this override thing, that InDesign considers master page items locked in place, things such as a title, or page number box. That's fine, but with a text box, I was able to access the text box without overrides. So to summarize, it seems that I'm having to override master page items to access my text boxes. So how the heck do I design a book with master pages if I cannot enter text into the text boxes??? Do I have to create a text box manually on each new page? What's the point then?

       

      Geez, I miss QuarkXpress.....

       

      What's up here? Anyone have experience with this problem?

       

      Thanks!

       

      John

        • 1. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Master frames would not be "clickable" on the document pages, but theys should show (with a dotted border). Perhaps you are not showing frame edges?

          • 2. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
            cocteau3 Level 1

            Right, there is the dotted border. Seems like I"m stuck in Quark days when I could design a book using a text box on a master page, and import text into that page on each document page. With InDesign, anything I produce on a master page will show on the document pages, but text is generally imported from files and requires margin specs, so I"m reading in my books. I don't like that one bit, because who really ever designs a document with the same margins on every page? Overly complicated and ignores title boxes etc. So I think I'm stuck overriding each document page as I create it...

             

             

             

            Not a fan...

            • 3. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              If you are coming from Quark it will take you some time to learn the new ways and adjust your thinking, but over time I expect you'll come to see the wisdom of the InDesign system.

               

              In ID master frames are more sacrosanct than in Quark, and I'll get to more on why that is in a moment, but if you have a master text frame and wish to type into it you can override it by Cmd (Ctrl on Windows) + Shift clicking on it and it will behave much as you are used to from Quark (but it will no longer be threaded to other master pages).

               

              Back to the "why" of master pages in ID... Unlike other layout programs, ID will create frames for placed content on the fly. You don't need to draw a box, then select it, and finally choose get content. Instead you can simply choose File > Place (and you can select multiple items at once for placing), choose your content, and when you return to ID you will have a loaded cursor or "Place Gun." What happens next is up to you. you can click inside an existing empty frame, including one that is a master frame (these frames do not need to be selected first), and your content will be placed inside the frame (and if it is a master frame it will automatically override onto the document page for further editing). In the case of text, holding the Shift key when you click will flow the entire story, adding new frames and pages as requires untill all of the text is on a page. If you start by clicking in a master frame (that is not overridden), the text will flow into other master frames according to how they are threaded on the master page.

               

              If instead of clicking inside a frame you click and release in a blank sopt onthe page, ID will create a frame for you and plcae the content into it. Images will be placed at 100% with the upper left corner where you click. Text frames will be created with their top at the y-coordinate where you click, and they will fill any surrounding column (margin, in the case of a one-column layout) guides down to the bottom margin. If you click outside the margins, the frame will be drawn the same size as if it were inside the margins when you clicked, but will be offset so the upper left corner is where you clicked. If you hold the shift key while placing text without exisiting frames, additinal frames are all added filling the column guides from top to bottom margin. This means that for things like book work you don't need master text frames for the body of the book -- you just set up the margins to the size of the text block and go. If you change your mind later and want to change the margins, go to the master page, then Layout > Layout Adjustment... and enable layout adjustment before making a change to the margins. Your text frames that are snapped to the old guides will resize automatically throughout the document on any page based on that master.

               

              Finally, if instead of click and release you click and drag with the place gun, ID will create a new frame the size and shape you drag. In the case of images ID will constrain the proportions to the same as the image, and scale to fit. For text you can drag any shape you like, and you can hold Shift to auto-flow into the guides as before for text that won't fit into your new frame.

               

              Since you don't need the master frame to put content on a page, most of time empty master frames become more of a hindrance than a help (moving a page from left ot right or reapplying a master, for example, reassert the master frames behind any frames you've already used). In general, my rule of thumb is if you find you need to override a master frame to use it there is a very good probability that the frame shouldn't be on the master page at all. The biggest exception to this rule of thumb is something like a magazine layout where you might have masters set up for different standard page layouts and want placeholder frames for place content. You can pre-format the frames and place content into them (which does not require overriding), or override a frame to type a custom headline or caption. If you are flowing text from page to page where ther are master frames that don't fill the columns, and where the sequntial pages are based on differnt masters, instead of holding the Shift key, hold the Opt (Alt on Windows) key and click inside the first frame, then move to the next frame position and the place gun will remain loaded with the remaining text, allowing you to thread any pattern you need. The other big exception to the "no empty master text frame" rule is if you need parallel text flows, not uncommon in certain types of translation work. If you don't thread frames together across columns or across the spread in a master spread, each frame will act as an independent thread when you flow text and you can flow two stories next to each other.

              • 4. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                cocteau3 Level 1

                Okay, I strongly disagree here. I'm familiar with the text importing, and I think it works best in semi-auto mode with a book or magazine where the text boxes are uniform. However, here is one major problem I'm having:

                 

                After laying out 100 pages, I decided to slightly change the margins on my document. I go to master pages, select the text boxes, move the margins, and go to "apply master to pages" and denote the pages subject to the changes. All I get is the dotted line and the original text boxes are the same. It's like it is making layers instead of just altering my margins. So, from my perspective here, I'm completely unable to change my margins, or any other item, even though I have tried to restore master page items (reverse the override) and that doesn't help either. Once again, Quark = no problem. Change the master, it changes the document pages that I select.

                 

                What is the point of master pages if I cannot make these changes??? No one wants to manually change the margins of a book layout..

                 

                ??

                • 5. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Feel free to disagree.

                   

                  You'll note that I said the big exception to my rule is magazine layouts.

                   

                  Your only mistake, from the description above was REAPPLYING the master page. Tkae another look at mey previous post and you'll see I mentioned that reapplying a master page reasserts the master frames behind the frames that have been overridden. If you haven't made changes to the frames on the document page after placing content into them (i.e. you haven't resized or repositioned them already) they remain linked to those attributes on the master page. It is enough to simply edit the master frames on the master page and all frames based on that master on doument pages will update automatically.

                  • 6. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                    Maler7781 Level 1

                    I think I may have the solution to this; coincidently, I was doing the very same thing last night -- editing a book which has about 200 pages  --and having much of the same problem; I was wanting to change the gutter on the columns in the book as it was much too narrow; ...and having to do all of the pages manually would drive one to the brink of insanity.  Like me, your probably doing a lot of editing...and have been diving into the text almost at random...and that is likely part of our problem...

                     

                    As I am now understanding the issue, once you've placed text in a text frame on the the document page which was only BASED upon the Master Page (i.e. the document page merely 'borrowed' the text frame idea from the Master), you have overridden that text frame -- meaning; you have effectively broken the link between the text frames on the document page and master page (i.e. they are now seperate text frames) and NO changes to the text frame on the Master Page will be reflected on the document pages using that master (I know --if this is the way it works, the 'master page' implication is horribly counter intuitive).  The solution, as it applied to me, was in the object Styles that can be applied to the text frame...changes in this will be reflected on every page with text frames using that style.  I didn't see anything for the margins exactly, but it did solve my 'gutter' problem...I imagine it would work for the margins as well....only problem no, I hadn't paid any attention tothe object styles when originally placing the text, and I am now having to apply the object style to every text frame on the page manually, but mainly because I created one especially for the text frames to suit my purposes (I figure I might as well create a new one)....but it is a lot easier than adjusted these things by hand.

                     

                    Also, to determine if the text frames on a page have been overridden, I believe the pages icons in the pages panel have blue striping on the pages that havebeen overriden by the user...I couldn't find any reference to this in the so-called help files,  but they seem to appear there when I was experiementing with the issue earlier....

                     

                    In summary, the Master Text Frame is really just to place all the background elements that appear on multiple pages...and not for general editing for book projects : )

                     

                    object_styles_adjust_text_frames.jpg

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                    • 7. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Maler7781 wrote:

                       

                      As I am now understanding the issue, once you've placed text in a text frame on the the document page which was only BASED upon the Master Page (i.e. the document page merely 'borrowed' the text frame idea from the Master), you have overridden that text frame -- meaning; you have effectively broken the link between the text frames on the document page and master page (i.e. they are now seperate text frames) and NO changes to the text frame on the Master Page will be reflected on the document pages using that master (I know --if this is the way it works, the 'master page' implication is horribly counter intuitive).

                      You completely misunderstand the concept of master text frames. Placing text does override the frame, but at that point the ONLY attribute that is unlinked from the master is the conten of the frame. As long as you do not make any other changes, such as changing size positon or fill color, those attributes retain their link to the master and edits made to the master frame will be reflected on the document page.

                       

                       

                      Also, to determine if the text frames on a page have been overridden, I believe the pages icons in the pages panel have blue striping on the pages that havebeen overriden by the user...I couldn't find any reference to this in the so-called help files,  but they seem to appear there when I was experiementing with the issue earlier....

                      The blue line in the page icon only indicates there is a frame drawn on the document page, a dotted line indicates a master object. Whther that frame was drawn directly or as an overridden master object, the appeance is the same. I cannot think of a way you would be able to distinguish between an overridden master frame and a frame directly drawn on the document page by the appearance of the page icon.

                       

                       

                      In summary, the Master Text Frame is really just to place all the background elements that appear on multiple pages...and not for general editing for book projects : )

                      This, strictly speaking, is also incorrect, but from a practical standpoint most experienced InDesign users quickly conclude that it is more efficient and less troublesome to set margin guides to surround the main text block in book work and dispense with a master text frame for running text since the master frame gains nothing and, as you've seen, causes no end of trouble if you need to do any sort of page shuffling. If the text frame is snapped to the margin guides, eanblint layout adjustment, and then changing the margins on a documetn page will cause the text frame to resize or reposition, or both, to remain snapped to the new margin positions. making the margin adjustment on the master page will cause the changes to happen on all pages based on that master (and layout adjustment is completely independent of the master frame concept). The rule of thumb becomes if the frame needs to be overridden, you need a really good reason to put it on the master page. Such reasons do exist, but they are the minority of cases for most users. This is one of the biggest paradigm shifts, I think, for users moving to ID from some other layout application and can take a lot of effort grasp and become comfortable. My memory is it took me at least several months to figure this out on my own when I first switched from Quark to ID ten years ago.

                       

                      Finally, if you haven't assigned any other object style, either directly or by changing the default text frame style, ALL text frames in your document will have the [Basic Text Frame] style applied. If you want to make a global change you can edit that style instead of creating and applying a new one. If you've applied some other style already, you should probably edit that instead of creating yet another as well.

                      • 8. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                        cocteau3 Level 1

                        Right, I see. I"m having the same visuals on CS3 InDesign, but I use a Mac. However, not to jinx myself, but I made a dupe file of my layout and then went to the master pages that controlled the original text frames, made margin adjustments, and voila, the changes took effect, even without having to reapply master pages. So, something is working right. Just like Quark. I hope this continues, furthermore, I don't intend to change the darn margins in the end if I can help it! But, I'm thinking that because I have linked all my text boxes in each chapter, it has helped to make these changes somehow. The file I tried to do this on that did NOT work was not using linked boxes consistently, and some were changing and others not. Not very scientific, but I'm liking the ability to change the margins now.

                         

                         

                        • 9. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                          cocteau3 Level 1

                          Personally, I think it's like PC users vs. Mac users. Of course there is a reason to use master page layout features and then change them. Otherwise, we're designing documents that may as well exist in Microsoft Word i.e. setting margins in Indesign instead of using text boxes. Mac designers are too visual (rightly so!) to rely on margins because we like to fine-tune the document through using master pages. In that light, yes, it seems the overriding of the text frame only overrides the content, and not the frame. That's how it should be. I think Adobe has built in an overly-complex feature, but the advantage is in the nice autoflow, or semi-auto flowing text feature. That has been a great time saver. I think this explains why the text boxes are able to be adjusted in the master page window - because that frame was never overriden.

                           

                          Thanks Peter et al.

                          • 10. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            cocteau3,

                             

                            Transitioning from Quark to ID is not a simple process, by any means. In some respects it's similar to learning a new language and you'll find yourself more comfortable and fluent when you stop translating -- thinking about how you used to do things in Quark and trying to do them the same way in ID -- and start to think about the way tasks are most easily accomplished in ID. I have a number of colleagues who made the switch several years ago, and not a single one of them would go back to using Quark by choice, even though they were power users and lovers of the application. Without exception they have become comfortable dooing things the "ID way" and find they work more efficiently than they could in Quark, and can often do things that were not possible at all previously.

                             

                            I won't say there's nothing I miss or that Quark doesn't do better -- Square gradients jumps to mind, and I remember a super step and repeat that allowed scaling -- but overall I wouldn't go back unless forced.

                            • 11. Re: Master page items not showing on newly created pages
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              cocteau3 wrote:

                               

                              Personally, I think it's like PC users vs. Mac users.

                              With the exception of an option to use the application frame on Mac and being required to use it on PC (and of course OS specific window control buttons and keyboard shortcuts) there are no differences in using InDesingn on either platform. The files themselves are completley platform independent (I'm a Windows user, but share with Mac colleages all the time) other than choice of font, and it's only older Mac-format TrueType or Type 1 fonts that don't cross. Some third-party vendors make plugins or scripts that are restricted to one platform or the other, but there are no features from Adobe that are not cross-platform at this point.

                               

                              It's not particularly productive to characterize Mac users as being more visual than PC users. Users of all types are found on both platforms.