7 Replies Latest reply on Oct 30, 2014 7:24 PM by BillyDBrown

    PE10 DVDs disappointing

    rtilleryweb

      The output of PE10's DVD authoring is very disappointing.  The scaling and/or MPEG encoder seems to be halving the vertical resolution, and the horizontal scaling looks poor as well.  It looks like the scaling isn't very sophisticated, and then half the lines (a field) are discarded.

       

      I started with reasonable (consumer) quality 1440x1080 30p content, edited with PE10, and set the output to DVD with the highest quality settings.  Here is a portion of the image (cropped to fit within the forum size limitations, but left with the natural anamorphic aspect ratio):

      AJ-HDtoPEDVD.png

      Note the jagged edges of the left girl's arm.  And note the obvious aliasing of the second girl's left hand.

       

      The input video is marked 30p.  But even if it were not, I certainly hope the deinterlacing of choice isn't discarding a field.

       

      Next I took the edited video in 1440x1080 30p AVCHD format (which was actually still completely re-encoded, although this video was already fully AVCHD compliant) and scaled the resulting h.264 stream to 720x480 30p using another application.  Then I encoded it with a stand-alone MPEG encoder to be DVD compliant.  I replaced the timeline in PE10 with this video (and the edited AC3 audio) and authored the DVD again.  PE10 re-encoded the video, even though it was already DVD compliant, and this is what I got:

      AJ-MPVtoPEDVD.png

      Note that the jagged edges are reduced but not gone, and the aliasing is still present in the second girl's hand.  It appears that the prescaling helped filter some, but still it seems that half the lines (a field) are being discarded.

       

      This is what the same frame looks like from the MPEG encoder:

      AJ-MPV.png

      Note that it's sharper, and has no artifacts or aliasing.

       

      Further, even horizontally the PE10 scaler seems poor.  Here is another portion of the frame converted from the original HD by PE10:

      AJ-HDtoPEDVD-2.png

      Note the girl's right leg and the uneven jaggies.  It looks like a very low quality scaler was used, although even the simplest interpolated should be able to handle the integer scale from 1440 to 720 in use here.

       

      Now here's the same frame from my MPEG:

      AJ-MPV-2.png

      Note how much better this looks.  Especially compare the thin light area.

       

      All of this looks much worse in motion, since these artifacts and aliasing vary by frame.  For example, there is a stage marker (an X) that isn't really apparent in the manual version, but in the other two, it becomes very noticeable as it flickers in and out of view.  It seems this is because it's just about 1 line tall after scaling to DVD resolution, and the discarding of the lines without any filtering causes it to come and go as the camera moves slightly up or down.

       

      So:

       

      1.  What do I have to do to improve the vertical resolution of PE10 scaling/encoding for DVDs?

      2.  What do I have to do to keep PE10 from re-encoding compliant MPEG streams and just author them (perhaps with cut edits) to DVD?

      3.  What do I have to do to keep PE10 from re-encoding compliant HD h.264 streams and just author them (perhaps with cut edits) to AVCHD (or Blu-Ray)?

       

      Rick

        • 1. Re: PE10 DVDs disappointing
          nealeh Level 5

          Hello Rick, and welcome.

          rtilleryweb wrote:

           

          It looks like the scaling isn't very sophisticated, and then half the lines (a field) are discarded.

           

          It is inevitable that data must be lost. Even at the highest quality settings DVD is by, definition, 720x480 (NTSC). And as you are starting with 1440x1080 resolution is being discarded. Now it may be that PRE's scaling algorithms aren't working as well as you expected - but we need more information before considering that:

           

          • Where did the clip(s) come from ?
          • Have you installed any software that came with the video source ?
          • How did you get those clips into the PC ?
          • Have you burnt the project to disk (i suggest a re-writeable for testing) and looked at it on a TV via a DVD Player ?

           

          rtilleryweb wrote:

           

          Next I took the edited video in 1440x1080 30p AVCHD format (which was actually still completely re-encoded, although this video was already fully AVCHD compliant) and scaled the resulting h.264 stream to 720x480 30p using another application.  Then I encoded it with a stand-alone MPEG encoder to be DVD compliant.  I replaced the timeline in PE10 with this video (and the edited AC3 audio) and authored the DVD again.  PE10 re-encoded the video

           

          So:

          • Starting with AVCHD - highly compressed to start with.
          • Scaled the  stream - recompressing.
          • Encoding with an MPEG encoder - compressing again
          • Encoding with PRE - a fourth compression from what would have actually been 'seen' by the camera or other source.

           

          Not really surprising that the end results are soft.

           

          Lets go with some first principles:

          • For output PRE will always re-encode. If that is unacceptable for you then return the product and get your cost refunded (assuming you are still within the thirty day limit).
          • Where did this clip come from ?
          • Please analyse it with MediaInfo and/ or GSpot and post the screenshots here.
          • What Project Setting did you start with in PRE10 ?
          • After import did PRE give any messages about the setting not matching the source ? If so, did you let the software change the setting ?
          • Did you have any red lines running across the timeline ?
          • Are your screenshots as viewed from your computer ?
          • Burn the project to DVD (I suggest re-writeable for testing) How does it look on a TV ?

           

          There's more, but your answers to these questions will initially help.

           

          Cheers,
          --
          Neale
          Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

          • 2. Re: PE10 DVDs disappointing
            the_wine_snob Level 9

            For converting from HD to SD, you might want to follow Jeff Bellune's HD2SD TUTORIAL. He uses open source software, and the quality is about as good as one can get, this side of Hollywood.

             

            Good luck,

             

            Hunt

            • 3. Re: PE10 DVDs disappointing
              rtilleryweb Level 1

              Thanks for the info....

               

              On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:54 AM, nealeh <forums@adobe.com> wrote:

              It looks like the scaling isn't very sophisticated, and then half the lines (a field) are discarded.

              It is inevitable that data must be lost. Even at the highest quality settings DVD is by, definition, 720x480 (NTSC). And as you are starting with 1440x1080 resolution is being discarded.


              I should confess that I have a great deal of video processing experience.  I'm aware that information is lost when downscaling, and quite familiar with different scaling algorithms (including having written code to implement several of them).  My concern is that the quality in PE10's processing is below what would be expected (assuming the best compromise between speed and quality--most likely a bilinear or bicubic algorithm), especially in the vertical direction.  That includes a comparison to scaling in other Adobe products.

               

              Now it may be that PRE's scaling algorithms aren't working as well as you expected - but we need more information before considering that:

              • Where did the clip(s) come from ?


              As stated, they were from a consumer HD camcorder.  Specifically, a Canon HF M30.  The camcorder was set for anamorphic 1440x1080 30p @ 12 Mbps.  The video was taken in a theater, using available stage lighting.
               

              • Have you installed any software that came with the video source ?


              I did, but it was...to be nice...not of the quality which I had hoped, so I uninstalled it.

               

              • How did you get those clips into the PC ?


              Copying the MTS files from the SD card to the hard drive.

              • Have you burnt the project to disk (i suggest a re-writeable for testing) and looked at it on a TV via a DVD Player ?

               

              I have played directly on two DVD/Blu-Ray players and using two media players, in addition to the computer.  They all exhibit the same artifacts.

               

              • Starting with AVCHD - highly compressed to start with.
              • Scaled the  stream - recompressing.

               

              Yes, but that was the same video I used when scaling using a different path (AVISynth).  Even consumer quality HD content scales fairly well to SD.

               

              • Encoding with an MPEG encoder - compressing again


              As stated, the first arrangement I tried was to use the HD content directly and let PE10 do all scaling and rendering.  This resulted in the worst of the images above.  It appears that the video was not filtered properly in the vertical direction before being resampled.  And it also appears that at least part of the resampling was done by discarding half the 480 lines.  It is certainly possible that this was part of the deinterlacing process, but I would prefer to use a more sophisticated technique, even if the source were interlaced.  And it's not clear how to indicate to PE10 that the source is really progressive.
                

              • Encoding with PRE - a fourth compression from what would have actually been 'seen' by the camera or other source.

               

              Yes, for the second attempt through PE10, I used the encoded MPEG.  But for the first attempt, I used the HD source.  Of course, since the MPEG was already DVD compliant, I would have hoped that PE10 would not have to do any re-encoding at all (except at the cut points to reconstruct the GOPs).

               

              Lets go with some first principles:
              •   For output PRE will always re-encode. If that is unacceptable for you then return the product and get your cost refunded (assuming you are still within the thirty day limit).

               

              Seriously?  Is this always the case?  That would be quite disappointing.  Do you have a reference which indicates this?

               

              It would seem that for consumer video, which as you point out, starts from a quality perspective at lower quality than professional grade video, recompressing when unnecessary would be best avoided, to maintain what quality is available.  And since we're also talking about what is presumably a consumer-level PC on which this is typically run, doing so would have the benefit of being much faster, as well.

               

              • Where did this clip come from ?

               
              Specified above.

              • Please analyse it with MediaInfo and/ or GSpot and post the screenshots here.

               

              The only really interesting information here is that the stream is marked as interlaced even though the camera was set for progressive.  But the type of artifacts illustrated above would only be evident if the deinterlacing technique was to discard one field.  (I was responsible for porting SmoothDeinterlacer from VirtualDub to AVISyth, although I did not generate the actual algorithm.)

               

              MediaInfo for 111119161426-full.MTS:

              General
              ID                               : 0 (0x0)
              Complete name                    : G:\Family Videos\2011-11\111119161426-full.MTS
              Format                           : BDAV
              Format/Info                      : Blu-ray Video
              File size                        : 2.60 GiB
              Duration                         : 30mn 2s
              Overall bit rate                 : 12.4 Mbps
              Maximum Overall bit rate         : 13.7 Mbps
               
              Video
              ID                               : 4113 (0x1011)
              Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
              Format                           : AVC
              Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
              Format profile                   : High@L4.0
              Format settings, CABAC           : Yes
              Format settings, ReFrames        : 2 frames
              Codec ID                         : 27
              Duration                         : 30mn 2s
              Bit rate mode                    : Variable
              Bit rate                         : 11.6 Mbps
              Maximum bit rate                 : 12.0 Mbps
              Width                            : 1 440 pixels
              Height                           : 1 080 pixels
              Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
              Frame rate                       : 29.970 fps
              Color space                      : YUV
              Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
              Bit depth                        : 8 bits
              Scan type                        : Interlaced
              Scan order                       : Top Field First
              Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.250
              Stream size                      : 2.44 GiB (94%)
               
              Audio
              ID                               : 4352 (0x1100)
              Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
              Format                           : AC-3
              Format/Info                      : Audio Coding 3
              Mode extension                   : CM (complete main)
              Codec ID                         : 129
              Duration                         : 30mn 2s
              Bit rate mode                    : Constant
              Bit rate                         : 256 Kbps
              Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
              Channel positions                : Front: L R
              Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
              Bit depth                        : 16 bits
              Compression mode                 : Lossy
              Delay relative to video          : -67ms
              Stream size                      : 55.0 MiB (2%)

               

              • What Project Setting did you start with in PRE10 ?


              HDV 1080i; 29.97 fps; 1440x1080; HD Anamorphic 1080 (1.333); Upper Filed First; 30fps Drop-Frame Timecode...

               

              • After import did PRE give any messages about the setting not matching the source ? If so, did you let the software change the setting ?


              No.  The project settings matched the input video, so no messages were seen.

              • Did you have any red lines running across the timeline ?


              There were four (of 60 or so) clips which were adjusted in one way or another (fade in at the start, fade out at the end, one was rotated slightly, etc.) that required re-rendering.  The others did not.  But this was only the case while the output was set for HD.  Once the output was set for DVD, I didn't see the timeline change, but obviously the entire video would need to be processed.
               

              • Are your screenshots as viewed from your computer ?


              These are as viewed using VirtualDub via AVISynth with the DirectShowSource() input filter, then cropped and saved as PNG format from Gimp.  I don't know what the forum here does with them.  They are all viewed through the same path, and the artifacts match those seen with other playback methods, both on the computer and on the various video playback methods mentioned above.
               

              • Burn the project to DVD (I suggest re-writeable for testing) How does it look on a TV ?

               

              As mentioned above, it looks the same.

               

              I did try remuxing the VOB video produced by PE10 with the CCE video encoding, but I'm not an expert on the minute details of DVDs.  The results were much better, but the streams were not aligned correctly (I would guess an understandable difference in encoding rate), so after a few minutes the video decoding began to stutter.  The original MPEG file didn't do this, so I obviously didn't correctly remux the VOBs.

               

              Anyway, if I have to modify my workflow, that is fine.  I bought PE10 primarily as an editor that could handle HD h.264 content, and it handles that.  Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to handle the rest of the workflow as I had hoped:

               

              1.  (check) I would like to be able to edit h.264 video natively.

              2.  (x) I would like to be able to output an h.264 file or AVCHD with minimal re-encode (smart render).

              3.  (x) I would like to be able to output a DVD version of the same timeline, but at a reasonably decent quality.

              4.  (x) I would like to be able to replace the PE10 MPEG encoder with one of my own, and have PE10 just allow editing and authoring without re-encode.

               

              Now if I could find a reasonable intermediate format for the output of item 1 above, I can handle 3 & 4  by feeding the video to CCE via AVISynth, and then use to DVD-Lab to author the DVD.  I still haven't been able to find an app that can handle #2 above (I've tried almost all of the consumer products from all the usual suspects and others besides).

               

              Is there a way to frameserve from PE10?  Or is it necessary to generate AVI files with no compression (or lossless compression, like HuffYUV), and the associated hard drive space, to process the PE10 output elsewhere?

               

              Rick

              • 4. Re: PE10 DVDs disappointing
                dmsketchup

                Regarding re-encoding:

                ===

                Lets go with some first principles:

                •   For output PRE will always re-encode. If that is unacceptable for you then return the product and get your cost refunded (assuming you are still within the thirty day limit).

                Seriously?  Is this always the case?  That would be quite disappointing.  Do you have a reference which indicates this?

                ===

                 

                You guys are way over my head, so if this is nothing at all to with what you are talking about forgive me. But I vaguely remember from PE4 days that you could tell PE4 to "never recompress" certain clips.   I think the setting was reached via the same action that took you to where you could change the field options (how to handle interlacing etc).  But I see that the settings menu/dialogs are different now, and while I can find the field options, I don't see anywhere where you can instruct PE10 to never recompress.  The never recompress option was a common answer to solving several common issues back then, but I'm sorry I can't remember any more than that right now.  it might have been in conjunction with preserving quality of uncompressed .avi source files, which perhaps is not applicable to your problem...

                 

                This doesn't help you I know, but it would be interesting to know if this recompression option has gone away since PE4. 

                 

                Dave

                • 5. Re: PE10 DVDs disappointing
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  Rick,

                   

                  I have not encountered any frameserver for PrE, such as has been done for some versions of PrPro and Encore with DeBugMode's Frameserver, but might have missed one.

                   

                  As for Exporting/Sharing an intermediate, I would look to Lagarith Lossless, or UT lossless, rather than HuffYUV. I think that you will like either one better.

                   

                  Good luck,

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: PE10 DVDs disappointing
                    BillyDBrown Level 1

                    Bill,

                     

                    This is not for the faint of heart. I've spent much of the weekend on this and still not done.

                     

                    Do you know whether it will work work with Win 7? Bellume says Win 7 users are on their own.

                    How do you choose the logarith codec in PrE?

                     

                    Any tips?

                     

                    thanks

                     

                    Bill Brown

                    • 7. Re: PE10 DVDs disappointing
                      BillyDBrown Level 1

                      Well, I put some more time into this workflow and I am beginning to understand it a little better. I am getting some output but stumbling on the following:

                      • DebugMode FrameServer will not work with PrE. (Perhaps, only PrPro but I'm not sure if it's limited to PrP).
                      • The link to AviSynth MT goes nowhere.
                      • DGMPGDec is no longer under available due to licensing issues. HCenc seems to have taken on .m2v encoding but I don't see an indexer.

                       

                      With Logarith and Avsynth, I was able to get a decent image but now I'm stuck with a significant audio sync problem. Bellume's workflow uses DGMPGDec. Now what? Any ideas for an alternative for this?