27 Replies Latest reply on Jan 13, 2012 8:33 AM by the_wine_snob

    Jerky action with HD movies

    doane2u Level 1

      I'm filming AVCHD [FSH] 1920x1080, VBR 17MBS, 30fps 16x9 aspect ratio movies from my camera. When I get them into PE10 they are almost unmanagable with extremely jerky movement. I convert the MTS file format to AVI first, but it dosn't help. When I create a new project I choose the DSLR-1080p 30fps 48k audio as that seems the closest match to my files.  What kind of system does it take to edit HD movies.. am I under powered?

      I have a Intel dual core 2.4ghz with 4gB RAM a Nvidia GTS250 1GB video card and a Audigy X-Fi Music sound card with Windows 7 64bit.

       

      Any help appreciated

        • 1. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          Your computer may not be fast enough to work with AVCHD. But much depends on which version of the program you're working with and what kind of video you're working with.

           

          What model of camcorder is your video coming from and how did you get it onto your computer?

           

          If you are shooting in AVCHD, why did you choose the DSLR project setting?

           

          If you've selected the correct project settings for your video, there will be no red lines above your clips when you add them to your timeline. Is that the case in your project?

          • 2. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
            doane2u Level 1

            Thanks for the fast reply, Steve. I have a Panasonic DMC-FZ47 camera with the video capibility of  [FSH] 1920x1080 VBR 17Mbps 60i - (output is 30fps) and 16x9 aspect ratio. I have taken the SD HC card and plugged it directly into my 50" Panasonic plasma screen and it looks fantastic with no hickups or stalls.. very smooth. I had read some comments by your Muvipix tutorials (I ordered the PE10 color book) that it is best to convert the out put MTS movie files to AVI for best response in PE10 which was what I was doing. So, I would upload the files to my computer drive and then convert them to AVI and then create a project using them in PE10. I didn't know what to choose though when setting up the project so I guessed at the one I mentioned above.  Yes, I did see red lines above the clips in the time line view.. what does that mean?

            • 3. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

              Thanks for supporting the book, Doane!

               

              Though it's usually not necessary to convert AVCHD to AVIs. As long as your project is set up for Full AVCHD 1920x1080, you should be okay editing the video as is. As long as it's not shooting your video in 60p.

               

              I'm having a little trouble making sense of the specs on this page.

              http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/compact/fz47_fz48/video.html

               

              Can you tell if your AVCHD video is 60i/30i?

               

              It almost looks like it output Full AVCHD at 60p and MP4s at 60i -- which would be frustratingly counter-intuitive, since it's the exact opposite of what most consumer editing programs (including Premiere Elements) can work with. What you ideally want is Full AVCHD video at 60i/30i. Otherwise, we're going to have a struggle to get this video to work.

               

              When you put your AVCHD video on the timeline of a project set up for Full AVCHD,do you see red lines above the clips?

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                the_wine_snob Level 9

                For more detail on Rendering, and what it is for, see this ARTICLE.

                 

                For AVCHD material, smoothness of playback, when all things are set up properly, one needs a fast Quad-core, or better yet, an i7CPU, as decoding H.264 is very, very CPU intensive. What is the your CPU?

                 

                Good luck,

                 

                Hunt

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                  doane2u Level 1

                  The manual states that you have two choices for AVCHD movies:

                   

                  [FSH] 1920x1080 VBR 17 mps, 60i (CCD output is 30fps)  Aspect ratio 16:9 (I've been shooting all my videos at this level)

                  or

                  [SH] 1280x720 VBR 17 Mps, 60p (CCD output is 30fps)  Aspect ratio 16:9

                   

                  You can also shoot in MP4 at several resolutions [FHD] -1920x1080 30fps, [HD]-1280x720 at 30fps, or [VGA]-640x480 at 30fps any of them at 16:9 or 4:4 aspect ratio.

                   

                  On Camera Labs website in their review, http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC_FZ47_FZ48/, ...they say:

                   

                  "The AVCHD mode can record video in either Full HD 1080i or  720p, both at a rate of 17Mbit/s. 1080i footage is recorded at 50i or 60i depending on region, from a sensor output of 25p or 30p respectively. 720p  footage is recorded at 50p or 60p depending on region, although again from a  sensor output of 25p or 30p respectively.

                  The MP4 mode can record video in Full HD 1080p, 720p or standard definition VGA, at rates of 20, 10 and 4 Mbit/s respectively. All  three modes are encoded using progressive video at 25p or 30p depending on  region, and all match the original sensor output of 25p or 30p respectively." 

                  ...So I asume that means the MTS moves are 30p/30fps?

                   

                  When I set up a new project, which one of the custom settings should I choose?.. there are a lot and they all seem to have similar settings, though some say 30fps and others say 23.97 or 29.97fps

                   

                  OK I just created another project and I choose NTSC\AVCHD\Full HD 1080i 30 16:9 29.97fps 48k audio

                  Loaded four movies into the time line, using the camera MTS unchanged format, total is about 6 minutes of film each clip a different length.

                  No red line and it plays OK and I can move the play back indicator fairly smoothly.

                  I hit the save button and got a pop up warning about high CPU usage.

                  I then added a FX Efect of shadow/highlight to the clips and then started getting the red line above each one where I added the effect. And it was then very jerky in play back or trying to move around with the position indicator or trying to move the clips to overlap for transition effects.

                  • 6. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                    doane2u Level 1

                    Thanks, Bill, still not sure what that means about rendering, except I guess I'm overloading things as soon as I add effects to a cell and get a red line above each cell that has the effect.. didn't see any green or yellow lines though?

                     

                    As mentioned in the first post, I have an Intel dual core 2.4ghz with 4gB RAM a Nvidia GTS250 1GB video card and a Audigy X-Fi Music sound card with Windows 7 64bit.

                     

                    Another thing I noticed.. when I expanded the timeline cells vertically to make them bigger the thumbnail image in the cells disappeared and just reads as a blue box. When I make it smaller the image appears again.

                     

                    Ahh.. just notied the linked article, will have to read that about rendering, sorry.

                    • 7. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                      doane2u Level 1

                      Bill: the currant new Intel CPU's i3. i5. i7 2500-2600 LA1155 socket called "Sandy Bridge" now use two types of MOB chipsets.. one for gameing P67 and another specifically for AVCHD with the video built in, the H67 which they say is excellent for DVD playback and AVCHD editing programs.. have you heard anything about this new H67 setup with an i series cpu used with Permere Elements 10?

                       

                      I could update my home built computer with a new MOB for the H67 for about $120 and the CPU about $200 and a CPU cooler another $30 ..I think my 650w power supply is adaquate.

                      • 8. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                        Randozer

                        My playback was jerky too until I right-clicked on the playback window (right on the video) and selected "playback quality" > automatic. Previously "High Quality" was selected and it was too slow. I'm running a dual core 64 bit iMac and I knew it wasn't the computer slowing it down becasue playback was smooth on Final Cut Pro X, which is a 64 bit program. Hope that helps.

                        Randy

                        BTW, what are the red lines above the timeline?

                        • 9. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                          nealeh Level 5

                          If seeing the red lines immediately you add a clip to the timeline then your project settings do NOT match the clip format.

                           

                          Once you have matched the project setting to the clip format it is then quite normal, after adding effects and transitions, that redlines will appear above the affected clips. To improve preview performance press [Enter] and wait for the red lines to go green.

                           

                          Cheers,
                          --
                          Neale
                          Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                          • 10. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                            Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                            If you are shooting in AVCHD 1920x1080 30i stereo, you should choose the project settings for Full AVCHD 1920x1080.

                            • 11. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                              Ted Smith Level 3

                              Your computer should be OK as long as you keep the preview window small and low quality when previewing complicated effects.

                               

                              I had a dual core 3.5ghz with 4gb ram XP, running PE9 editing 1920x1080 25i (PAL) for a while it was not too bad

                              The preview was perfectly smooth as long as it had no rendering red lines. I only showed timeline thumbnails when I really needed them. It's surprising how you can edit quite efficiently without them most of the time. I start and stop the preview quickly with the space bar..

                              Also only show timeline thumbnails option at the start of each clip, not continuous

                               

                              I recently changed to an i7 with 8gb ram Win7 64b and it runs much smoother, zips up and down the timeline quickly, rendering only being needed around complicated transitions for complete smoothness. Biggest improvement is it burns much faster. Also it never crashes even still using PE9.

                              • 12. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                doane2u Level 1

                                Thanks everyone for the information and help. Am waiting for Steve's book to arrive and hopefully much of this will be covered along with other questions I probably will have.

                                Randozer, thanks, I didn't know about that, but my settings were already on automatic.

                                Nealeh:  When I first loaded the clips there was no red line, only when I added effects. I just hit enter while on a clip that is only 1 minute long and it says it is going to take 19 minutes to render it?

                                Ted: Looks like I may be ready for another upgrade/rebuild of my home built... will have to start looking into all this stuff again!

                                 

                                If I shoot in MP4 is it going to edit any faster?

                                 

                                Thaks everyone!

                                • 13. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                  When you do get Steve's book, be sure to see the Appendix (unless he's moved things about recently), as he does a good job of covering the necessary hardware pretty well. Too many overlook the Appendix, and it's filled with useful, and often necessary, information.

                                   

                                  As stated above, with AVCHD (or any H.264 material), the CPU is of MAJOR importance for smooth playback. H.264 is heavily compressed, so it takes a lot of computing power to decompress it smoothly on the fly. Before H.264, the computer's I/O was the most important aspect, i.e. the HDD's, their speed, their controller type and how the HDD's are allocated. H.264 changed all of that, placing the computational burden on the CPU. Based on much study, my rec. is a fast i7, but others get by with a bit less, say a late-model Quad-core with a fast clock speed.

                                   

                                  Good luck,

                                   

                                  Hunt

                                  • 14. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                    Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                    Do not shoot in MP4 format. It will be even harder to edit.

                                    • 15. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                      doane2u Level 1

                                      Thanks, Hunt, I will look into upgrading..I now realize that PE10 is not usable with AVCHD with my system

                                      • 16. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                        Yes, AVCHD, with the H.264 CODEC, is a tough format to edit. I used to joke that most salesmen were quick to sell a customer an AVCHD camera, with no mention of this difficulty, as they knew the customer would soon be back to buy a new computer... I think that many still do that.

                                         

                                        Now, there are some NLE programs, that internally convert AVCHD (and other formats) to proxy files for editing. FCP, for the Mac, is one of those.

                                         

                                        Good luck,

                                         

                                        Hunt

                                        • 17. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                          doane2u Level 1

                                          OK, Steve, that will save me some wasted time too!  Look forward to getting your book.

                                           

                                          Still not sure about this render subject... do you have to render the clips each time you want to play them at normal preview speed and doesn't this slow things down A LOT?  I couldn't believe that to render a one minute clip on my system would take about 20 minutes!!.. how long would it take with an i7 processor like Hunt is suggesting?  And do you need to render it just for preview since the article said you can't use the rendered versions for the final out put and must render everything again???

                                           

                                          Isn't there some way to edit in lower resolution and then have the program do the final rendering on the full res version so that one can work at a comfertable speed and not be constantly waiting for things to work or having to work with almost impossible jerky behavior?  Is this all because my system is slower?

                                           

                                          I just want to be sure that if I'm going to be pooring several hundred more dollars into my system it's going to be worth while.

                                           

                                          Thanks,

                                          • 18. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                                            For more info on Rendering, see this ARTICLE.

                                             

                                            Good luck,

                                             

                                            Hunt

                                            • 19. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                              doane2u Level 1

                                              Thanks Bill, I read the article and understand most, but not all of it. I understand now that when I hit the enter key I was rendering all the red lined clips, not just the one clip of 4 I had selected, so the 20 minutes of required rendering was for about 5 minutes of the 4 clips, not just one one minute clip, but this is still way to long to wait and get any editing done, it would be futule to work this way. I also sort of understand (haven't had time to try it yet) that you can set what area you want rendered with the WAB markers, but this still seems like a lot of extra adjustments just to get the preview and a lot of waiting each time you make any edits.

                                               

                                              AVCHD editing in PE10:

                                               

                                              With a i7 cpu and a decent amount of RAM, say 4GBS, how long do you think it would take to preview render my 20 minute clip, or would it take any time at all?  (Ted said it was very fast up above in his post)

                                               

                                              Has there been any discussion by Adobe of incorporating in the program a low res proxy version of a movie being worked on and then have the final slow rendering done to the full res movie?

                                               

                                              Final question, is there any way to convert a AVCHD movie to a lower res version and then practice editing on it with out the overloading?

                                              • 20. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                The time to either Render or Transcode AVCHD will depend on the OS, the state of tune of the system, the configuration of the I/O sub-system, the Duration of the Timeline and any Effects used (some Render/Transcode quickly, but others take a long time).

                                                 

                                                As for low-rez proxies, Adobe has never used those, like FCP does. Adobe tries for native support of most common formats/CODEC's, with no need for proxies.

                                                 

                                                Now, though its a bit old now, this ARTICLE might be interesting to you.

                                                 

                                                Good luck,

                                                 

                                                Hunt

                                                • 21. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                  doane2u Level 1

                                                  Thanks again, Bill. When I get a chance I will have to try this proxy technique.

                                                   

                                                  I just wonder why Adobe doesn't try for a proxy solution, I'm sure they could come up with a really good one.. why wouldn't they want to make the program work better with AVCHD files when they are obviously becoming more and more popular and economical to come by with the availability of the hardware to produce them.. a point being my fairly inexpensive camera which can produce high quality AVCHD movies with zoom functions equivalent to top video cameras from just a few years ago.  I'm just really surprised Adobe hasn't come up with some workable solutions for this, which is obviously a major problem for anyone who isn't using the latest, sate of the art hardware processors.

                                                  • 22. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                    My guess would be that with a proper computer, and properly tuned computer, AVCHD edits natively in PrE (and now PrPro) smoothly. Many users, who have other NLE programs, that use proxy files, really resent having to use them, and a lot, as of the release of FCP X, are rapidly jumping ship to PrPro, and loving it, especially because it can edit their material natively.

                                                     

                                                    Now, for AVCHD, many found that CineForm Neo Scene was a good way to go. I have never used it, as I do not have AVCHD material to edit, and also have stout computers. Other H.264 material edits fine and smoothly.

                                                     

                                                    Good luck,

                                                     

                                                    Hunt

                                                    • 23. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                      doane2u Level 1

                                                      OK, we'll see.. I was ready for a rebuild.. my last home build was over four years ago with a few updates along the way.. updated the graphics card to a Nvidia GTS250 1gb about a year ago and the sound card to a Sound Blaster X-Fi Music about the same time. So, I just ordered a Core i7 2600 Sandy Bridge 3.4 GHZ Quad Core on a Gigabyte board with Z68 chipset along with 8GB of very fast DDR3 SDRAM, a new OCZ 650W 54a Power supply, new case, etc. Will keep the video card (not the fastest, but still pretty good), the sound card, and a couple of my SATA drives and my new Windows 7 Pro 64 bit OS I bought last year. Will look forward to using Premiere Elements 10 when I get this new system running as PE10 is useless with my currant hardware setup for any AVCHD video work.

                                                       

                                                      I was going to ask earlier, does PE10 use any graphics card support like the NVIDIA® CUDA™ and AMD® OpenCL?  They are supposed to really help speed things up with AVCHD, isn't that correct?

                                                       

                                                      Thanks

                                                      • 24. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                        Ted Smith Level 3

                                                        Yes, it is no good getting an i7 and putting it in an entry level mother board - like putting a Jet engine in a wolkswaggon!

                                                        I recently got a Gigabyte Z68X-UD3R-B3 with an i7, 8gb ram 64Bit Win7 and it goes very well on PE9, If your motherboard is same or better specs it should be fine.

                                                        Reports suggest it goes even faster with PE10.

                                                        • 25. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                          doane2u Level 1

                                                          Thanks, Ted... if you're doing that well with PE9 I should do great with PE10 which supports my Windows 7 64bit

                                                           

                                                          I got a less expensive GA-Z68A-D3H-B3.. I wouldn't call it an "entry level MOB" .. it doesn't have a lot of extra features, but I don't need the extras like a lot lot of drives, firewire, etc. It does have the Z68 chip set and I will probably take advantage of the SRT feature when I get a small 40GB SSD drive later. I don't have the fastest i7 CPU, but it is an i7 which supports Hyper threading, etc., (the i5 series does not).  I'm really looking forward to it.

                                                           

                                                          Does anyone know about whether the PE10 can use any graphics card support like the NVIDIA® CUDA™ and AMD® OpenCL?

                                                          • 26. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                            doane2u Level 1

                                                            Just want to thank everyone for the help.. I don't know how you can mark more then one answer as correct, so only marked Ted's last one which did have more information about performance that I can expect based on what I will be doing, but again, thanks everyone for all the very informative answers. Will get back and leave comments about my new system and how it goes with PE10 when I get it set up.

                                                            • 27. Re: Jerky action with HD movies
                                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                              You only get one "correct answer," but then get two "helpful answer" choices.

                                                               

                                                              Glad that you got things sorted out.

                                                               

                                                              Good luck,

                                                               

                                                              Hunt