28 Replies Latest reply on Jan 8, 2012 8:31 AM by [Jongware]

    How do you set type above and outside a text box?

    gorerilla

      textoutsidebox.jpg

       

      A client has provided an Indesign CS5.5 file using both english and japanese fonts. In this case, the Japanese text has a romaji (english) translation set above the box. I need to make changes to the english type but it's completely untouchable as far as I can tell. I've tried checking the baseline settings, caption, text box, etc....  Any changes made to the japanese inside the box and the outside text completely disappears.

       

      Is there something in Indesign that lets you do this? Styles? Is this a special plug-in?

        • 1. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Look in the layers panel and see if there's another frame that might be locked (showing frame edges might help, too). It's also possible this is an anchored frame, and your changes to the Japanese text is deleting the anchor. Can you post another screen cap with non-printing characters showing and frame edges showing?

          • 2. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
            [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

            Isn't this a special option of the Japanese version of InDesign? "Ruby" text?

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
              gorerilla Level 1

              here's a page shot with hidden chars turned on. Everything is on the same layer. The english is actually outside the frame. Am I correctly displaying frame edges?

              pageshot.jpg

              • 4. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                I suspect Jongware is on to something here. I've never seen the Japanese version in real life, so I'm not familiar with special features. You certainly don't seem to have any anchored frames.

                 

                I'm going to google Ruby text...

                • 5. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                  gorerilla Level 1

                  Thanks. I'm thinking Jongware is correct. As long as I'm not missing some option in Indesign then I'll be able to sleep tonight. I ended up making the text changes to the pdf with Pitstop.

                  • 6. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    I must say that's pretty brave of you.

                    • 7. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                      Assuming that these are indeed rubi, then:

                      As long as I'm not missing some option in Indesign then I'll be able to sleep tonight.

                      You cannot edit them in InDesign out of the box.

                      You could export the textframe as a Snippet and edit them in a text editor, that's probably straightforward.

                      You could edit them using the Scripting interface, if you are comfortable writing scripts.

                      You could purchase Harbs' World Tools, which will allow you to edit them ($99).

                      Or you could purchase the CJK (J?) version of InDesign, for a lot more money.

                      • 8. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                        [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                        John Hawkinson wrote:

                        You could export the textframe as a Snippet and edit them in a text editor, that's probably straightforward.

                         

                        That does sound doable.

                         

                        You could edit them using the Scripting interface, if you are comfortable writing scripts.

                         

                        ... or know someone who is ..

                         

                        No need for this Ruby to take her love to town yet.

                        • 9. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                          David W. Goodrich Level 3

                          Trouble is, these don't look like traditional ruby, a.k.a. furigana, instead resembling "text set above and outside a text box."  Any language version of ID can handle the latter: under the frame's Baseline Options set offset to Leading with a Min. of zero, then set the leading for the opening, one-line paragraph to zero.  The fact that the example shows all the items broken into separate frames seems odd for ruby, as real ruby work as part of regular text, not just at the top of a frame.  Does the Story Editor tell you anything?

                           

                          Traditionally, in horizontal text ruby/furigana add pronunciations above individual characters or short phrases using one of the Japanese syllabaries (hiragana or katakana) at small sizes: the pronunciations are both unobtrusive (small) and keyed to individual characters or "words" (loaded term in East Asian scripts).  My English-language ID can't do this, but MS Word can -- my English-language Word 2007 calls this "Phonetic Guide." 

                           

                          One of these days Adobe will fix the bugs in IDCS5.5 (e.g., book pagination) and I'll switch from CS4. Then I can install Harbs' World Tools on a production machine and start to experiment seriously with furigana in InDesign.

                           

                          David

                          • 10. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                            Michael Gianino Level 4

                            What do you see when you click into the Japanese text and open the story editor?

                            • 11. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                              Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              I think that your suspicion is more-or-less correct, David. What we're looking at here (IMH[P]O) is ruby abuse. Japanese ID lets you set furigana that look just like the second screenshot provided by the OP. However, the person who set this up def. did not actually provide furigana. The presence of a comma in what is ostensibly a pronunuciation guide makes me believe that someone who doesn't understand the tool is using it. I've seen romaji furigana set up for native English speakers in the past, but that's not what this is either.

                              The fact that the example shows all the items broken into separate frames seems odd for ruby, as real ruby work as part of regular text, not just at the top of a frame. 

                              I can't say this with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure that you are being misled by the fact that the ID operator who provided this to the OP was not a competent ID operator. If you don't know how to set up a numbered hanging indent in ID (and instead draw lots of little text frames, one for each number) then you probably don't know much about good typesetting practice, and so you might not know that your helpful romaji transcription did not belong where the handy furigana tool would place 'em. 

                              • 12. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                gorerilla Level 1

                                It just shows the japanese kanji and hiragana. No english.

                                • 13. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                  [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                  Here you go: a Poor Man's Ruby Editor.

                                   

                                  Be warned: it is possible to assign "the same" Ruby string to a number of consecutive characters, and somehow it's not easy to check for how many characters this Ruby string is applied to. So it might appear to work if you just change the first character in a string, but if you check the next one you might find the original string is still applied to that. I fooled around a bit trying to extend the selection range but boy, it was too complicated so I gave up on that.

                                   

                                  Other than that: it also doesn't change the font, font size, or (important!) the original alignment. Your new text may overlap over the next one or get stretched to fill the available space.

                                   

                                   

                                  //DESCRIPTION:Poor Man's Ruby Editor
                                  // A Jongware Script 7-Jan-2012
                                  // A No Guarantees Production.
                                  // Use With Extreme Care, Unless You Have No Idea What You Are Doing And Actully Don't Care Either.
                                  if (app.selection.length == 1 && app.selection[0].hasOwnProperty("rubyString"))
                                  {
                                    newstr = prompt ("String: ", app.selection[0].rubyString);
                                    if (newstr != null)
                                    {
                                      if (newstr.length)
                                      {
                                        if (!app.selection[0].rubyFlag)
                                          app.selection[0].rubyFlag = true;
                                          app.selection[0].rubyString = newstr;
                                        } else
                                        {
                                          app.selection[0].rubyFlag = false;
                                          app.selection[0].rubyString = '';
                                        }
                                     }
                                  }
                                  
                                  • 14. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                    David W. Goodrich Level 3

                                    I'm pretty sure the Story Editor indicates the existence of ruby text in a story.  I still haven't purchased Harbs' World Tools so for now my only way to enter ruby is via import from MS Word (or Open Office Writer).  When I pull a test file into English-language IDCS4 the Story Editor marks the character to which I added ruby.  In the screenshot you can see that the first character is bracketed with ID commands labelled with the Japanese for "Ruby":

                                    RubyTest_ID_Story.JPG

                                    So ID knows there's something there.

                                     

                                    On the other hand, Jongware's Poor Man's Ruby Editor has no effect on my sample IDCS4 file (when run from ESTK).  And I can't see my ruby text ("kao") anywhere.  So maybe I don't have any real ruby after all.

                                     

                                    David

                                    • 15. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                      [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                      Ah, I got a 5.5 file to play with. It seems CS4 doesn't support this set of Ruby cmds, at least not according to the Javascript reference.

                                      • 16. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                        David W. Goodrich Level 3

                                        I'm not surprised: while I was looking for ruby stuff I encountered an Adobe file on innovations in IDCS5.5, one of which was the ability to export ruby to e-pub.

                                         

                                        David

                                        • 17. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                                          I'm going to say it again -- use Snippets.

                                           

                                          I'm also not sure if David and gorerilla are the same person, and if not, if gorerillas question is answered... ??

                                          • 18. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                            David W. Goodrich Level 3

                                            gorerilla's original problem of un-editable type outside a text box is explained by ruby only if it is the case that the Story Editor for non-CJK versions of IDCS5.5 do not indicate the presence of ruby text: in post #12 he says Story editor shows none.  Are ruby ignored that completely by English IDCS5.5?  I thought otherwise, in part because IDCS4's Story Editor tags as "ルビ" (ruby) a character in my imported .docx file that had ruby applied in MS Word. Jongware showed the handling of ruby changed in IDCS5.5 (where, incidentally, his JSX works on my sample file: I cannot see any change but something happened because IDCS5.5 will let me undo two changes in text attributes).  I tried importing my ruby into Engish IDCS5.5, where Story Editor shows me the same tags as IDCS4, but that may be meaningless as an artifact of backwards compatibility.

                                             

                                            David

                                            • 19. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                              John Hawkinson Level 5

                                              I think it's a lot less clear-cut than that.

                                              If I import a .docx with ruby into ID CS5.5, I see annotations in the story editor, but not in the layout view. I think that means that ID is not properly formatting them as ruby.

                                               

                                              Similarly, though, if I run Jongware's script and add a ruby annotation (or edit one from the Word import), I don't see those ruby on-screen, even though his script sees them.

                                               

                                              Anyhow, regardless of what they are, exporting to a Snippet and opening the snippet in a text editor should make clear what they are.

                                              • 20. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                                John, I presume you have to set the composer to "Adobe Japanese Paragraph Composer" first.

                                                 

                                                (I'm trying this now on CS4, but while something seems to happen, I cannot add or edit Ruby because the property simply doesn't exist )

                                                • 21. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                  [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                                  Drifting OT: Browsing through the Paragraph Composer Plugin, I found this list:

                                                   

                                                  "HL Composer" -> "Adobe Paragraph Composer"

                                                  "HL Composer J" -> "Adobe Japanese Paragraph Composer"

                                                  "HL Single" -> "Adobe Single-line Composer"

                                                  "HL Single J" -> "Adobe Japanese Single-line Composer"

                                                  "HL Composer Optyca" -> "Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer"

                                                  "HL Single Optyca" -> "Adobe World-Ready Single-line Composer"

                                                  "HL Linnaeus" -> "Linnaeus Composer"

                                                  "Default Rules" -> "Default Rules"

                                                  "ClipboardPageNumber" -> "PN"

                                                  "ClipboardSectionName" -> "Section"

                                                  "NoFootnoteString" -> "<?>"

                                                   

                                                  I wonder what the speciality of the "Linnaeus Composer" is -- automatically italicizing family/species sequences such as Escherichia coli, perhaps?

                                                  • 22. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                    Harbs. Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    John Hawkinson wrote:

                                                     

                                                    You could purchase Harbs' World Tools, which will allow you to edit them ($99).

                                                    Actually, you'd need the $179 World Tools Pro which among other things has a dialog dedicated to setting Ruby settings:

                                                    2012-01-08_1429.png

                                                    • 23. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                      Harbs. Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      Just FYI:

                                                       

                                                      World Tools Pro supports CS5 and later.

                                                       

                                                      @Jongware:

                                                       

                                                      The only way to control CJK features in CS4 is via C++...

                                                      • 24. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                        Harbs. Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Hmm.

                                                         

                                                        I'll have to check out that Linnaeus Composer. I have my suspicions as to what it can be...

                                                         

                                                        In which version did you find that list?

                                                        • 25. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                          Harbs. Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Just one more FYI:

                                                           

                                                          If you want to try the Ruby settings in WTP, I suggest you contact me first (until we upload a new version), because I'm working on fixing some bugs in the dialog...

                                                           

                                                          HTH,

                                                          Harbs

                                                          • 26. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                            John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                            John, I presume you have to set the composer to "Adobe Japanese Paragraph Composer" first.

                                                            Oh yeah -- duh!

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            Drifting OT: Browsing through the Paragraph Composer Plugin, I found this list:

                                                             

                                                            "HL Composer" -> "Adobe Paragraph Composer"

                                                            "HL Composer J" -> "Adobe Japanese Paragraph Composer"

                                                            "HL Single" -> "Adobe Single-line Composer"

                                                            "HL Single J" -> "Adobe Japanese Single-line Composer"

                                                            "HL Composer Optyca" -> "Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer"

                                                            "HL Single Optyca" -> "Adobe World-Ready Single-line Composer"

                                                            "HL Linnaeus" -> "Linnaeus Composer"

                                                            "Default Rules" -> "Default Rules"

                                                            "ClipboardPageNumber" -> "PN"

                                                            "ClipboardSectionName" -> "Section"

                                                            "NoFootnoteString" -> "<?>"

                                                             

                                                            I wonder what the speciality of the "Linnaeus Composer" is -- automatically italicizing family/species sequences such as Escherichia coli, perhaps?

                                                            Well, just because it's a PMString doesn't make it a composer. In particular, CS5.5 rejects "Linnaeus Composer" when tried.

                                                             

                                                            I'll have to check out that Linnaeus Composer. I have my suspicions as to what it can be...

                                                            In which version did you find that list?

                                                            Our friend Carolus appears as far back as CS3; perhaps a vestige of a prior century.

                                                            • 28. Re: How do you set type above and outside a text box?
                                                              [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                                              John Hawkinson wrote:

                                                              I wonder what the speciality of the "Linnaeus Composer" is -- automatically italicizing family/species sequences such as Escherichia coli, perhaps?

                                                              Well, just because it's a PMString doesn't make it a composer. In particular, CS5.5 rejects "Linnaeus Composer" when tried.

                                                               

                                                              Well the name was sort of a giveaway. However, CS4 -- where I found it in "Paragraph Composer.InDesignPlugin" -- also rejects it so I presume it's just some kind of leftover. The other composers work "as advertised".

                                                               

                                                              Tip: you can use the left hand entries prefixed with "$ID/" to use the language independent name.