39 Replies Latest reply on Nov 11, 2016 6:37 AM by rob day

    Pro Photo RGB to CMYK

    Beth McNabb Level 1

      Can you please recommend the best way to convert 16 bit Pro Photo RGB files to CMYK for prepress printing?  

       

      I shot images for a corporate website and for print.  They want the images in a catalog and now I need to convert them also.

       

      Thank you very much for your valuable input.  I want to do this right the first time.

       

      Beth

        • 1. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
          MW Design Level 5

          What I have done is to convert in two steps using my image editing software. First, I convert to an Adobe RGB 1998 profile then to a CMYK profile using the appropriate ICC profiles for the intended output. Then save as a new name.

           

          If this were an art print or high-end printing, I would be more concerned about the conversion process.

           

          Take care, Mike

          • 2. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            Why go from Pro Photo to Adobe RGB? I don't see any advantage. Adobe RGB is smaller than Pro Photo, but both are larger than any CMYK space, and most (probably all) monitors.

             

            IF, and that's a big if, I were going to convert to CMYK before placing into ID, I'd open the files in Photoshop, change the mode to 8-bit, then Edit > Convert to Profile... and use the correct profile for the destination if you know it. If you don't already know, you need to find out before going to print. If you leave the photos in RGB, you can do the CMYK conversion during output to PDF, but you won't then have the opportunity to tweak the colors, and since you've used Pro Photo I suspect you probably care a lot about the color, and you probably also have a lot of values in your captures that will be out of gamut for press, so you'll find that option less appealing.

            • 3. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Image>Mode>CMYK produces the same results as Convert to Profile assuming you setup Color Settings to match before making the mode change (first set the Working CMYK space to your destination CMYK profile and select the desired Conversion Options)

              • 4. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Why go from Pro Photo to Adobe RGB? I don't see any advantage.

                 

                First, I convert to an Adobe RGB 1998 profile then to a CMYK profile using the appropriate ICC profiles for the intended output.

                 

                 

                If the image colors are close to or in gamut, converting to AdobeRGB before converting to CMYK vs. direct to CMYK produces identical separations, but as the color gets further out-of-gamut, converting to AdobeRGB first does produce significantly different results in both output numbers and softproof. In the ProPhoto example below I converted via AdobeRGB to US Sheetfed Coated, and then directly to US Sheetfed Coated always using Reative Colormetric with Black Point Compensation. In both cases the CMYK values in the image match, but the out-of-gamut patch and gradient values are very different. For example 255|0|255 converts to 24|90|0|0 vs. 17|71|0|0 via AdobeRGB.

                 

                 

                Screen shot 2012-01-07 at 10.12.22 AM.png

                 

                 

                Screen shot 2012-01-07 at 10.14.16 AM.png

                 

                Screen shot 2012-01-07 at 10.13.15 AM.png

                • 5. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                  gert verrept Level 2

                  Beth,

                   

                  All of the above is correct, but...where is it going to be printed? What do you have to deliver? A pdf, an Indesign? Is your monitor calibated? If not, how do you know if the colors are ok? As Peter pointed out, do you know the profile the printer is going to use?

                  My best guess is, convert to a "standard" (in Europe we have the "iso" standard for coated or uncoated stock) cmyk profile in photoshop and make a "standard" cmyk pdf. Send that pdf to the printer and ask him for a color proof on paper, no digital proof).

                  Once you have that, tweak your converted photo's to match your standard.

                   

                  Good luck, gert

                  • 6. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    That's an intersting comparison, Rob, but I don' think you made any value judgment or conclusion based on it? Do you think the two-step is an improvement? It's of course difficult to tell from screen caps in a browser, but I think, personally, that the direct conversion produced a better image.

                    • 7. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      The direct conversion did a better job with saturation particularly with magenta. I suppose if you preferred maintaining value over saturation there might be an argument for the extra AdobeRGB step in a rare super saturated file but it sure gets ugly. Here are my test files.

                       

                       

                      http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/ProPhotoconversions.zip

                      • 8. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                        MW Design Level 5

                        One reason--interesting that flowers were used in Rob's comparisons--was that the images I began using that two-step method were photos of bright flowers against an almost purple-black, very rich, soil. I believed that it was easier to correct in PS going from the Adobe RGB to CMYK than direct from the ProPhotos and RAWs I was handed.

                         

                        That and the fact that at least with the monitors I have used, I cannot display the full gamut of ProPhoto anyway. So I believe management was easier, for me, than dropping out of a space I could not see fully to one that I more or less could using the equipment I had (and still have for that matter).

                         

                        As for viewing results in browsers? Hopefully someone isn't using Opera to view the above...In any case, I'll take the middle one to begin working with over the bottom one.

                         

                        Take care, Mike

                        • 9. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          As for viewing results in browsers? Hopefully someone isn't using Opera to view the above...

                           

                          Download my link in #7 to see the color managed files. I have the two cmyk versions layered so you can easily compare value readings—the top layer is direct, the bottom is via AdobeRGB. There are no CMYK value differences in the flowers.

                          • 10. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                            Beth McNabb Level 1

                            I think I can give them the PDFs or the InDesign files.  This is my first job to go to a printer.  I print large prints on my Epson in my office frequently, but I'm used to being in RGB, sRGB or mostly Pro Photo.  CMYK is not as comfortable for me and I have to get this right. 

                             

                            I have 4 catalogs for a corporate client.  Most of the product images are a very rich bright blue.  When I realized I was going to need to convert to CMYK, I did a simple conversion.  The images looked muddy.  It was better after I adjusted the cyan and magenta.  I'll create an action once I get a couple tweaked the way they look best.  And the printer will give me a hard test copy.  They are a really good printer and reasonable.  NASCAR is one of their clients. 

                             

                            I'm not sure which profile the printer wants, but I'll find out Monday before I begin the conversion process.  Thanks for reminding me! 

                             

                            And yes, my monitor is calibrated. 

                            • 11. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                              Beth McNabb Level 1

                              I really, really appreciate the time and thoughtfulness you have put into your answers.  I need to reread them and look carefully at the files.  Thank you for your time and please, feel free to comment more.  I'll keep you posted!

                              • 12. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                John Hawkinson Level 5

                                Err, so.

                                 

                                All of these color spaces are different, and none is a proper subset of another.

                                If you step from ProPhoto to AdobeRGB to some CMYK space, then you will sacrifice the fidelity of your conversion. Your final colors will be a less accurate representation of the original colors than if you performed a direct conversion.

                                 

                                (On the other hand, if your goal is to emphasize the differences between colors, then you might find your doube-conversion appropriate. But I would think probably not and "it depends.")

                                 

                                It might be helpful to look at the chromaticity diagrams. These come from Wikipedia and the last one is from http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00QNAo.

                                 

                                ProPhoto:

                                434px-CIExy1931_ProPhoto.png

                                AdobeRGB:

                                434px-CIExy1931_AdobeRGB.png

                                CMYK (vs. generic, presumably sRGB):

                                00QOnx-61877884.png

                                 

                                So, you're just engaging in a series of successive approximations. In the first case, you're moving your colors around inside the first two triangles. At best you get no problems, and at worse you lose something. And then you're trying to fit it inside the dotted line of CMYK.

                                 

                                But it seems clear that your bright CMY primaries are going to suffer. And I can't see a benefit.

                                • 13. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Most of the product images are a very rich bright blue.

                                   

                                  When you are separating blues you have to consider that parts of a CMYK space are outside of any monitor's RGB gamut—most notably 100% cyan—so there are blues that can be printed but not displayed—in some cases the soft proof of blues will be less saturated than what will print.

                                   

                                  It's usually best practice to edit as much as possible in your RGB editing space. If you set your CMYK Working Space to the profile recommended by your printer and turn on Proof Colors with Working CMYK as the setup, you get a soft proof of the future CMYK conversion without making the conversion. You can also see the output CMYK numbers you'll get in the Info Panel (by setting one of the panel's eyedroppers to CMYK) so you can see if there is any yellow or black in a blue and adjust accordingly.

                                   

                                  the images looked muddy.  It was better after I adjusted the cyan and magenta.

                                   

                                  Selective Color lets you adjust blues and cyans without affecting the rest of the image. In the image below I've added a color sampler to the sky and you can see it's out-of-gamut (!), but the blue is not max'd out to 100% cyan. With selective color I'm pushing cyan to 100% without affecting the rest of the image and without converting to CMYK first.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  og.png

                                   

                                  cx.png

                                  • 14. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    I just ran across this post trying to find a solution for a similar issue. I am using Blurb's book template InDesign plugin and placing ProPhoto RGB images into the document. Blurb suggest only placing images that have been converted using their single Blurb.icc CMYK profile in PS. There are two  issues:

                                     

                                    1) Blurb offers five different paper types that cannot be properly targeted using the single Blurb.icc profile.

                                    2) I also want to output my InDesign book to eBook and PDF format for screen viewing without restricting the color gamut using CMYK placed images.

                                     

                                    Blurb versus sRGB Gamut.jpg

                                     

                                    Blurb requires using their PDF X-3 preset to create the cover and pages PDFs, which are uploaded for printing. PDF X-3 does not support ProPhoto RGB or Adobe RGB images so they get converted to sRGB in the PDF file. This causes some gamut clipping, which you can see in the below image. It is an Adobe RGB JPEG so you may need to click on the image to open it, right-click, and save to your drive for proper viewing in PS. Any and all suggestions are appreciated!

                                    Blurb PDF Export Preset, v1.1.jpg

                                    • 15. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      PDF X-3 does not support ProPhoto RGB or Adobe RGB images so they get converted to sRGB in the PDF file.

                                      I'm not seeing that. PDF/X-3 doesn't let you convert into an RGB space on export, but you can choose No Conversion, which will leave profiled RGB images unchanged. The document CMYK profile gets used as the PDF output intent, but the RGB objects are left unchanged. Here you can see Object Inspector tells me my selected image is ProPhoto and the PDF is passing a PDF/X-3 preflight:

                                       

                                      Screen Shot 2016-11-04 at 3.12.22 PM.png

                                       

                                       

                                      1) Blurb offers five different paper types that cannot be properly targeted using the single Blurb.icc profile.

                                       

                                      It's not uncommon for online printers to want everything in a single CMYK space. If you look at the Blurb profile it looks almost identical to Coated GRAcol except with lighter black generation. I think the objective of forcing everything to CMYK is to make sure no one thinks they can send 0|0|255 RGB and expect it to print unchanged.

                                       

                                      Also offset presses are considerably more variable than composite printers—the profile of a press is constantly changing even during the run, so over thinking the profile can be counter-productive. But there is more of a profile difference between coated and uncoated sheets, so pre-separating to GRAcol Uncoated and leaving the image untagged could be better, but you would have to watchout for an automated conversion back to the coated Blurb profile on their end.

                                       

                                      I also want to output my InDesign book to eBook and PDF format for screen viewing without restricting the color gamut using CMYK placed images.

                                      Why not place all images as ProPhotoRGB and let the conversion to sRGB for eBook and Blurb CMYK for print happen on the export?

                                      • 16. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Blurb suggest only placing images that have been converted using their single Blurb.icc CMYK profile in PS.

                                        Just to clarify, the color management system is the same between the CC print apps, so there is no quality difference between making conversions to CMYK in PS vs. placing tagged RGB images in ID and converting to the same destination CMYK profile on export.

                                        • 17. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          rob day wrote:

                                           

                                          PDF X-3 does not support ProPhoto RGB or Adobe RGB images so they get converted to sRGB in the PDF file.

                                          I'm not seeing that. PDF/X-3 doesn't let you convert into an RGB space on export, but you can choose No Conversion, which will leave profiled RGB images unchanged. The document CMYK profile gets used as the PDF output intent, but the RGB objects are left unchanged. Here you can see Object Inspector tells me my selected image is ProPhoto and the PDF is passing a PDF/X-3 preflight:

                                          I'm not that savvy with the PDF inspection tools, but used Document Processing> Export All Images. The Blurb provided X-3 2002 preset is set to 'No Conversion. The Exported JPEG image files with that Blurb PDF preset were all sRGB. I used Object Inspector as in your screen shot and they do all show as ProPhoto RGB. I tried Document Processing> Export All Images again with the same PDF files and they do show as ProPhoto RGB. I can't explain what's different now, but this does not appear to be an issue. Thank you!

                                           

                                          rob day wrote:

                                           

                                          1) Blurb offers five different paper types that cannot be properly targeted using the single Blurb.icc profile.

                                           

                                          Also offset presses are considerably more variable than composite printers—the profile of a press is constantly changing even during the run, so over thinking the profile can be counter-productive. But there is more of a profile difference between coated and uncoated sheets, so pre-separating to GRAcol Uncoated and leaving the image untagged could be better, but you would have to watchout for an automated conversion back to the coated Blurb profile on their end.

                                          Can a different CMYK Output Intent Profile be assigned during RIP to prevent using two CMYK conversions (ProPhoto RGB> Assigned Blurb.icc> Actual Printer/Paper Profile)? This doesn't "fix the soft proof issue of using one Blurb.icc profile that is paper agnostic (i.e. Paper White and Black Level Differences). However, it would prevent additional gamut clipping during the CMYK conversion processes.

                                           

                                          rob day wrote:

                                          I also want to output my InDesign book to eBook and PDF format for screen viewing without restricting the color gamut using CMYK placed images.

                                          Why not place all images as ProPhotoRGB and let the conversion to sRGB for eBook and Blurb CMYK for print happen on the export?

                                          That's exactly what I'm doing now with one difference. Many people use wide gamut monitors (self included) and the new iMac and iPad displays have wider color gamut than sRGB. I would like to output to PDF or other eBook format that is color managed and will display images using the assigned color profile. I'm using Adobe RGB rather than ProPhoto RGB since no display in use today has wider gamut. I also want to reduce the possibility of banding in fine gradients due to converting placed 16-bit TIFFs to 8-bit JPEG output.

                                           

                                          From inside InDesign when I create the PDF using 'No Conversion' I see reduced gamut in Acrobat. If I use 'Output Preview' and select Adobe RGB as the Simulation Profile it shows the full Adobe RGB gamut same as inside InDesign, PS, etc. Any idea what I'm doing wrong or is this just normal behavior for Acrobat and Reader? Using Object Inspector the PDF does show Adobe RGB images. Many thanks again for your assistance!

                                          • 18. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            but used Document Processing> Export All Images. The Blurb provided X-3 2002 preset is set to 'No Conversion. The Exported JPEG image files with that Blurb PDF preset were all sRGB.

                                            Yes, you have to check color with ArcobatPro's preflight or inspection tools to know what's really going on inside a PDF—exporting or extracting is not reliable.

                                             

                                            Can a different CMYK Output Intent Profile be assigned during RIP to prevent using two CMYK conversions (ProPhoto RGB> Assigned Blurb.icc> Actual Printer/Paper Profile)?

                                             

                                            For CMYK separated offset color management the paper variable is handled by the destination CMYK profile (i.e., Blurb.icc, US Web Coated (SWOP), US Sheetfed Uncoated). This is different than a composite RGB driven inkjet printer workflow a photographer might be used to, which is what you are describing.

                                             

                                            The current PDF/X-4 and X-3 standard lets you keep everything as RGB and make the final CMYK conversion at export or let the printer do it in the RIP, but there's not the extra paper profile step in your example. In theory you should be able to send RGB to Blurb and at output they would make the conversion into an uncoated or coated CMYK profile as needed, but in practice they don't appear to be doing that. They are requesting all color be converted into their variation of GRACol2009 coated profile (Blurb.icc) Color Management & Calibration Center. Match on-screen colors | Blurb Books .

                                             

                                            If you send them RGB their preflight is either going to reject the file or they will make the conversion, either way the color will be forced into the press CMYK gamut. Providing RGB will not improve the final printed gamut.

                                             

                                            Offset inks have a considerably narrower gamut than typical inkjet inks. And, for soft proofing you also have to keep in mind that CMYK is not a subset of RGB. There are colors like 90-100% cyan or 100% yellow that are outside of the typical RGB gamut and can't be displayed. You can see that in your #13 diagram.

                                             

                                             

                                            I would like to output to PDF or other eBook format that is color managed and will display images using the assigned color profile.

                                            Check these threads:

                                            Re: Colour shifted in iPad vs MacPro/MacBook Pro 17

                                             

                                            This one is more recent, but i just checked iOS 10 on an iPad and Safari is still not responding to embedded profiles, the only difference I see is its default rendering of CMYK is improved.

                                             

                                            Re: PDF colors wrong on ipad/iphone HELP!

                                             

                                            For screen PDFs I still convert all color to sRGB on export.

                                            • 19. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              rob day wrote:

                                               

                                              Can a different CMYK Output Intent Profile be assigned during RIP to prevent using two CMYK conversions (ProPhoto RGB> Assigned Blurb.icc> Actual Printer/Paper Profile)?

                                               

                                              For CMYK separated offset color management the paper variable is handled by the destination CMYK profile (i.e., Blurb.icc, US Web Coated (SWOP), US Sheetfed Uncoated). This is different than a composite RGB driven inkjet printer workflow a photographer might be used to, which is what you are describing.

                                              I don't know the workings of RIP used by the digital printing industry. I thought it might be possible for Blurb to "modify" the PDF Destination CMYK profile during RIP to the target printer and paper type so only one CMYK conversion is performed. It seems plausible, but maybe not? Blurb Tech Support contacted me via email last night and I asked them the same question. I'll let you know what they say. If the answer is no then I'll ask about submitting an RGB PDF. What InDesign and PDF settings would I need to use for creating an Adobe RGB PDF when using Adobe RGB placed images.

                                               

                                              rob day wrote:

                                               

                                              Offset inks have a considerably narrower gamut than typical inkjet inks. And, for soft proofing you also have to keep in mind that CMYK is not a subset of RGB. There are colors like 90-100% cyan or 100% yellow that are outside of the typical RGB gamut and can't be displayed. You can see that in your #13 diagram.

                                              That is correct for a standard gamut display, which typically has no better than sRGB gamut. A wide gamut display typically has close to 100% Adobe RGB gamut, which is larger than both the Blurb and U.S Sheetfed Coated v2 proifle gamuts. You can test this for your self at Color 3D Profile Gamut Viewer Widget. Using a wide gamut display CMYK soft proofing can be done without any gamut clipping due to the display. The new iMac Retina displays are also wide gamut The Wide Gamut World of Color — iMac Edition.  This is why I am trying to create InDesign screen viewable output with Adobe RGB profiled images.

                                               

                                              Is there any way to do this in PDF format so that an Adobe RGB PDF can be viewed in Adobe RGB color gamut? I know I can do this in Acrobat using Output Preview with Adobe RGB Simullation Profile, but that's a PITA and unavailable to users with only Adobe Reader. I tried using Export to ePub format and it does show the full Adobe RGB gamut using Adobe Digtial Editions viewer. Unfortunately it also requires making changes to the InDesign document such as anchcoring all images, etc. So a PDF with wide gamut display capability would appear to be a much easier workflow option.

                                               

                                              Thanks again for your help!

                                              3D Gamut Adobe RGB vs Blurb and US Sheetfed Coated v2.jpg

                                              • 20. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                I'll let you know what they say. If the answer is no then I'll ask about submitting an RGB PDF. What InDesign and PDF settings would I need to use for creating an Adobe RGB PDF when using Adobe RGB placed images.

                                                The PDF/X-4 and 3 presets let you keep color unchanged so you can place profiled RGB and it will stay that way on export. You can also use RGB swatches which will get profiled with the InDesign doc's assigned RGB profile. The X presets all require an Output Intent profile—the expected press profile—but at output a different profile could be used and the conversion from the profiled RGB objects would convert directly to that destination. So you can have an all RGB document that goes AdobeRGB to US Newsprint in one case and AdobeRGB to GRACol Coated at another press.

                                                 

                                                There are no guarantees that will happen at the other end, and most online printers require a single CMYK file even when they are printing on different papers. They are willing to ignore color profiling subtly because the workflow is automated and has to be simple for a wide range of user abilities. Otherwise they will inevitably run into this file with the provider expecting it to print unchanged:

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 12.02.40 PM.png

                                                 

                                                A wide gamut display typically has close to 100% Adobe RGB gamut, which is larger than both the Blurb and U.S Sheetfed Coated v2 proifle gamuts.

                                                I'm not seeing that both empirically, when I compare displayed 100% cyan on my relatively new iMac to a printed press sheet, and via ColorSync Utility's 3D comparisons. Here's what I get comparing the factory iMac profile to Coated GRACol. Wide gamut displays have a larger RGB plot but I don't see it catching the out-of-gamut cyan CMYK. Soft proofing cyan/blue has always been a problem.

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 11.43.15 AM.png

                                                Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 11.44.14 AM.png

                                                Here's what I get for AdobeRGB and US SWOP

                                                Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 12.18.11 PM.png

                                                 

                                                Is there any way to do this in PDF format so that an Adobe RGB PDF can be viewed in Adobe RGB color gamut?

                                                AcrobatPro DC defaults to the Output Intent profile for the initial simulation with PDF/X files. The current ReaderDC, Preview, Safari do not apparently show a print simulation—left to right X-4 in AcrobatPro, Reader, and Safari

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 12.32.05 PM.png

                                                • 21. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  rob day wrote:

                                                   

                                                  I'll let you know what they say. If the answer is no then I'll ask about submitting an RGB PDF. What InDesign and PDF settings would I need to use for creating an Adobe RGB PDF when using Adobe RGB placed images.

                                                   

                                                  There are no guarantees that will happen at the other end, and most online printers require a single CMYK file even when they are printing on different papers. They are willing to ignore color profiling subtly because the workflow is automated and has to be simple for a wide range of user abilities. Otherwise they will inevitably run into this file with the provider expecting it to print unchanged:

                                                   

                                                  The Blurb PDF Preset v1.1 I used for a recently submitted book was set for No Color Conversion and Blurb.icc Output Intent Profile (default settings). I confirmed with Object Inspector that all images in those PDFs are ProPhoto RGB. I have a Blurb printed copy with the first 40 pages of this book created using the same ID Color Settings, but with the Blurb PDF Preset v1.1 set for Convert To Destination (Preserve Numbers) and Blurb.icc Output Intent Profile. I should receive the recently submitted book early this week and hopefully Blurb will respond back with answer to the remaining questions.

                                                   

                                                  rob day wrote:

                                                  A wide gamut display typically has close to 100% Adobe RGB gamut, which is larger than both the Blurb and U.S Sheetfed Coated v2 proifle gamuts.

                                                  I'm not seeing that both empirically, when I compare displayed 100% cyan on my relatively new iMac to a printed press sheet, and via ColorSync Utility's 3D comparisons. Here's what I get comparing the factory iMac profile to Coated GRACol. Wide gamut displays have a larger RGB plot but I don't see it catching the out-of-gamut cyan CMYK. Soft proofing cyan/blue has always been a problem.

                                                   

                                                  Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 11.43.15 AM.png

                                                   

                                                  That iMac profile looks suspiciously like a standard gamut display profile (i.e. sRGB gamut). The new DCI-P3 wide gamut display was first introduced in 2015 October (Late 2015 21.5:" and 27" models. Also I think the ColorSync profile for those models is named 'Display P3.' I'm a Windows guy so what do I know!

                                                   

                                                  The below 3D gamut display shows sRGB (solid), Adobe RGB (light wire-frame), and three Coated Paper (dark wire-frame gamuts. There is only a very small area showing outside Adobe RGB (see 2nd screenshot below). Since I don't have access to the Mac ColorSync utility I used this site for making the 3D Gamut Comparisons: Color 3D Profile Gamut Viewer Widget

                                                  3D Gamut Adobe RGB sRGB Blurb US Sheetfed Coated v2 GRACol2006 Coated.jpg

                                                  3D Gamut Adobe RGB sRGB Blurb US Sheetfed Coated v2 GRACol2006 Coated_2nd View.jpg

                                                  If you do have an iMac with a DCI-P3 gamut display (late 2015) you still may be seeing a soft proof difference with 100% Cyan printed copy.  The DCI-P3 gamut is shifted toward Yellow, so it has reduced gamut in the Blue-Green region (i.e. Cyan) compared to the Adobe RGB gamut. At this link The Wide Gamut World of Color — iMac Edition there are some good examples demonstrating the rendering differences between a wide gamut display with near 100% Adobe RGB gamut versus iMac DCI-P3 wide gamut display. The 'Teal Lake' picture is a good example of why you might be seeing a 100% Cyan soft proof difference. Just a guess......

                                                   

                                                  rob day wrote:

                                                  Is there any way to do this in PDF format so that an Adobe RGB PDF can be viewed in Adobe RGB color gamut?

                                                  AcrobatPro DC defaults to the Output Intent profile for the initial simulation with PDF/X files. The current ReaderDC, Preview, Safari do not apparently show a print simulation—left to right X-4 in AcrobatPro, Reader, and Safari

                                                   

                                                  Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 12.32.05 PM.png

                                                  OK, so it appears there's no way to display Adobe RGB profiles PDFs in that color space onscreen. So what the heck color space is it using???? I'm to investigate EPUB and other eBook formats that have readers with ability to properly display wide-gamut profiled images on both standard and wide gamut displays.

                                                   

                                                  One last question concerning AcrobatPro DC. I have a Creative Cloud 'All Apps' subscription. Is AcrobatDC Pro part of that plan or does it require an "additional fee" subscription?

                                                   

                                                  Thanks again for your timely assistance and a lively discussion!

                                                  • 22. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    So what the heck color space is it using????

                                                    When the PDF conforms to a X-1a, X-3, or X-4 standard, AcrobatPro DC defaults to the Output Intent's CMYK profile for the soft proof simulation (whether you have Output Preview opened or not). Acrobat simulates how all color in the PDF will convert to the Output Intent profile (which has to be CMYK). It's the same preview you'll get if you turn on Overprint or Separation Preview in InDesign.

                                                     

                                                    The other two examples, Reader and Safari, are displaying the RGB values via their assigned RGB profiles.

                                                     

                                                    Not all apps will honor embedded RGB profiles. When I view PDF/X-4s in the current default installation of Firefox, RGB profiles are ignored and everything is displayed as sRGB. As I mentioned I checked iOS 10 yesterday and iOS Safari also continues to ignore embedded RGB profiles. I don't see any evidence that iOS has any system wide CM.

                                                    • 23. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      One last question concerning AcrobatPro DC. I have a Creative Cloud 'All Apps' subscription. Is AcrobatDC Pro part of that plan or does it require an "additional fee" subscription?

                                                      It should be available with your subscription.

                                                       

                                                      Here's an example of the problems you might run into with PDFs intended for color managed screen viewing.

                                                       

                                                      An InDesign page with two versions of the same image with different assigned profiles—the RGB values are identical but the preview is very different because of the sRGB assignment (top) and the ProPhoto assignment (bottom). Exported to PDF/X-4, the preview in ID, Acrobat Reader, and current Chrome all are the same and the two profiles are being honored:

                                                       

                                                      Screen Shot 2016-11-06 at 1.56.03 PM.png

                                                       

                                                      Firefox Mac (right) previews both images as sRGB and ignores the ProPhoto assignment. This is also what I'm seeing on iOS 10

                                                       

                                                      Screen Shot 2016-11-06 at 1.56.49 PM.png

                                                       

                                                      Here's the PDF:

                                                       

                                                      http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/RGBComp.pdf

                                                      • 24. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        rob day wrote:

                                                         

                                                        One last question concerning AcrobatPro DC. I have a Creative Cloud 'All Apps' subscription. Is AcrobatDC Pro part of that plan or does it require an "additional fee" subscription?

                                                        It should be available with your subscription.

                                                        OK thanks. I'm currently using Acrobat X Pro so guessing this should be an easy upgrade to learn. Any gottchas or issues I should be aware of. I'm planning on letting it uninstall Acrobat X Pro during the upgrade.

                                                         

                                                        Rob, the ProPhoto RGB image in your PDF has no more than sRGB gamut and a bit more than SWOP Coated. Did you mean to do that? Also what settings should I use inside InDesign and the PDF/X-4 preset to duplicate your PDF export? Thanks again for hanging-in with your assistance.

                                                        • 25. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Hi Rob,

                                                          maybe I'm missing something here about Acrobat DC Reader.


                                                          If an RGB colored text is in the InDesign document and PDF/X-4 is exported, shouldn't Reader show the color managed RGB colors of the text according to the output intent that comes along with the PDF/X-4?

                                                           

                                                          In my case that would be ISO Coated v2 300%.

                                                          At least a little test on my side is showing, that Reader DC is actually doing this.

                                                           

                                                          So I was surprised with your screenshots in your answer # 20 showing Reader DC with a different result than Acrobat Pro DC:

                                                           

                                                          AcrobatPro DC defaults to the Output Intent profile for the initial simulation with PDF/X files. The current ReaderDC, Preview, Safari do not apparently show a print simulation—left to right X-4 in AcrobatPro, Reader, and Safari

                                                           

                                                          Screen Shot 2016-11-05 at 12.32.05 PM.png

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          As to my knowledge the default preferences with Reader DC is to show color managed RGB colors when it comes to PDF/X-4. I could be wrong and a Reader DC user has to change the preferences to see this.

                                                           

                                                          I'm using Reader DC version 15.020.20042 on Mac OSX 10.10.5.
                                                          And I think, I never changed the preferences.

                                                           

                                                          Regards,
                                                          Uwe

                                                          • 26. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            maybe I'm missing something here about Acrobat DC Reader.

                                                            You're right Reader and Pro do share an Overprint preference under Page Display and that will force all color into a CMYK preview—I've also lost track of what the defaults are. I'm not a heavy Reader user, but I don't see any Color Management preference pane where you can set a working CMYK space—it looks like Reader uses SWOP for the CMYK OP simulation when there's no PDF/X output intent included.

                                                             

                                                            It would be impossible to know the client's preference settings or even what PDF reader app is being used, so my larger point is a PDF/X with a mix of color spaces wouldn't necessarily preview as expected when you send it out into the screen world. For PDFs that are intended for screen viewing I think the best approach is to force everything into profiled sRGB.

                                                            • 27. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                              Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              … For PDFs that are intended for screen viewing I think the best approach is to force everything into profiled sRGB.

                                                               

                                                              Yes. Agreed.

                                                               

                                                              Regards,
                                                              Uwe

                                                              • 28. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                Rob, the ProPhoto RGB image in your PDF has no more than sRGB gamut and a bit more than SWOP Coated. Did you mean to do that? Also what settings should I use inside InDesign and the PDF/X-4 preset to duplicate your PDF export?

                                                                 

                                                                The two images are duplicates, the only difference is the profile assignments. You could also get the effect by placing the same image twice, and assigning different profiles via Object>Image Color Settings..., which lets you override the image's embedded profile. The Links panel will show profile overrides with a +. Here you can see the two images are the same, but the top has a profile override:

                                                                 

                                                                Screen Shot 2016-11-07 at 8.30.03 AM.png

                                                                 

                                                                I used the default PDF/X-4 preset (No Color Conversion). If you are concerned with profiles being honored by the PDF reader app, the gamut of the image doesn't matter. If the application doesn't color manage using the document profiles (Firefox Mac in my example, or any iOS mobile screen) your color will lose its profile assignment and the preview will change. In the case of ProPhoto RGB the change will be significant because the profile is so different than sRGB, which appears to be Firefox's default.

                                                                 

                                                                Here's the example:

                                                                 

                                                                http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/RGBComp.zip

                                                                • 29. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  Laubender wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  … For PDFs that are intended for screen viewing I think the best approach is to force everything into profiled sRGB.

                                                                   

                                                                  Yes. Agreed.

                                                                   

                                                                  Regards,
                                                                  Uwe

                                                                   

                                                                  So from all of this I take it there is no way to view wide gamut images (Adobe RGB) on a wide gamut display using a any of the currently available PDF readers. Is that correct....or am I still confused?

                                                                  • 30. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                    rob day wrote:

                                                                    The PDF/X-4 and 3 presets let you keep color unchanged so you can place profiled RGB and it will stay that way on export. You can also use RGB swatches which will get profiled with the InDesign doc's assigned RGB profile. The X presets all require an Output Intent profile—the expected press profile—but at output a different profile could be used and the conversion from the profiled RGB objects would convert directly to that destination. So you can have an all RGB document that goes AdobeRGB to US Newsprint in one case and AdobeRGB to GRACol Coated at another press.

                                                                    I just received a reply back from Blurb Tech Support and their answer is below. I'll have the book hardcopy later this week and will be able to compare the first 40 pages with the PDF images converted using the "generic" Blurb.icc profile to the new book with ProPhotoRGB images and No Conversion. Stay tuned–I'll let you know the results. Thanks again guys for all of your help.

                                                                    "The Blurb ICC profile is dynamic, and will embed the metadata for the paper selection in the file. This is done when the project is created using the InDesign plug-in which I see you had used. Since you did this, your images will be optimized for the paper type you selected."

                                                                    • 31. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      So from all of this I take it there is no way to view wide gamut images (Adobe RGB) on a wide gamut display using a any of the currently available PDF readers. Is that correct....or am I still confused?

                                                                      Not correct.

                                                                       

                                                                      Both AcrobatPro (without the Output Preview panel open) and Reader will preview via the object profile assignments if you make sure your preference is set to not simulate an overprint—overprinting is only a CMYK function.

                                                                       

                                                                      sel2.png

                                                                       

                                                                      Unlike Photoshop, InDesign and PDF allow you to have objects with different color spaces and profile assignments on the same page. In AcrobatPro you can simulate a conversion of all the color into a press profile via Output Preview without changing the object's color space—it is the equivalent of InDesign's Overprint/Separation Preview. If you place out-of-gamut RGB images on an ID page, Overprint will show you the expected change if you output to the document's CMYK profile, same thing can happen in AcrobatPro

                                                                       

                                                                      There are also desktop browsers with full color managed PDF rendering (Safari and Chrome on OSX), but I'm not seeing that on iOS or the current Firefox. So if you send a PDF with AdobeRGB out into the world in some cases you'll get the equivalent effect of a reassignment to sRGB—my Firefox example is showing that happen where the ProPhoto assigned image is changing.

                                                                       

                                                                      Both Uwe and I are suggesting a forced conversion into sRGB for screen viewing, so the color displays consistently whether the browser/reader is color managed or not. So for screen viewing I flatten to sRGB like this (not all readers can handle transparency correctly).

                                                                       

                                                                      Screen Shot 2016-11-08 at 10.57.21 AM.png

                                                                      If I use the above setting on the profile comparison test, the color doesn't change in Firefox (or iOS) because of the conversion into sRGB:

                                                                       

                                                                      Safari left, Firefox right

                                                                       

                                                                      Screen Shot 2016-11-08 at 11.08.52 AM.png

                                                                      • 32. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                                        "The Blurb ICC profile is dynamic, and will embed the metadata for the paper selection in the file. This is done when the project is created using the InDesign plug-in which I see you had used. Since you did this, your images will be optimized for the paper type you selected."

                                                                        This seems to imply that they will do a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion if you provide a CMYK PDF.

                                                                         

                                                                        In general it's not best practice to make extra CMYK conversions—it would never be ideal to make this extra conversion: AdobeRGB>GRACol Coated CMYK>GRACol Uncoated CMYK. Directly converting from RGB to the final CMYK is a better workflow (PDF/X-4).

                                                                         

                                                                        So if they are converting provided CMYK into a different CMYK space it seems like you would be better off providing AdobeRGB assuming you understand what will happen to out-of-gamut color and the RGB color will pass their preflight.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                          rob day wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          So from all of this I take it there is no way to view wide gamut images (Adobe RGB) on a wide gamut display using a any of the currently available PDF readers. Is that correct....or am I still confused?

                                                                          Not correct.

                                                                           

                                                                          Both AcrobatPro (without the Output Preview panel open) and Reader will preview via the object profile assignments if you make sure your preference is set to not simulate an overprint—overprinting is only a CMYK function.

                                                                          I think it's even simpler. I just created a non-PDF/X format PDF with the below settings and it renders properly with any assigned RGB  or CMYK profile image. I tested it in Acrobat Pro and Reader versions 10 and DC without having to change any Preferences settings. The test image is the one I posted in my reply # 14 with ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB, sRGB, and Blurb CMYK images, which all rendered properly on both wide gamut and standard gamut displays. I'm not concerned about rendering in a browser for now....just an app that will work (i.e. Adobe Reader) on OS X and Windows. Problem Solved! Maybe Adobe Digital Editions will work for iOS and Android platforms?

                                                                          • 34. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                            rob day wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            "The Blurb ICC profile is dynamic, and will embed the metadata for the paper selection in the file. This is done when the project is created using the InDesign plug-in which I see you had used. Since you did this, your images will be optimized for the paper type you selected."

                                                                            This seems to imply that they will do a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion if you provide a CMYK PDF.

                                                                            So what exactly do they mean by "dynamic?" The paper type is listed in the PDF Description Keywords. Couldn't that be used by the RIP engine software (or manually entered) to replace the generic Blurb destination profiie in the PDF with the actual target printer and paper profile? Obviously this won't help for CMYK converted PDFs, but it would for my ProPhto RGB PDF with No CMYK Conversion.

                                                                             

                                                                            . ; 2.7.0.20d18; pages; standard_portrait_true8x10; 106; dustjacket; standard_paper; enUS; resized

                                                                             

                                                                            If they are doing double CMYK conversions I would assume I'll see a difference between the previous book (Blurb CMYK converted PDF) and the new book (ProPhoto RGB with No Conversion PDF). I'll let you know!

                                                                             

                                                                            rob day wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            So if they are converting provided CMYK into a different CMYK space it seems like you would be better off providing AdobeRGB assuming you understand what will happen to out-of-gamut color and the RGB color will pass their preflight.

                                                                            Yep, and in fact I'm providing ProPhoto RGB images in that PDF. I do use ID and PS soft proof with the single Blurb.icc profile, but then they have five different paper types so we're back to square one on expecting "accurate" soft proofing!

                                                                            • 35. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                              I just created a non-PDF/X format PDF with the below settings and it renders properly with any assigned RGB  or CMYK profile image.

                                                                              Ok I thought you were concerned about color when you share the file. Your preference (see#31) is probably set to Automatic. If you pass the file to me I would see the CMYK OP simulation because my preference is set to Always. I'm not sure why you don't want the CMYK simulation—no offset inks are capable of printing AdobeRGB. The Blur Profile is a CMYK not an RGB profile.

                                                                               

                                                                              If you set your preference to Never PDF/X will give you the RGB preview unchanged.

                                                                               

                                                                              If they are doing double CMYK conversions I would assume I'll see a difference between the previous book (Blurb CMYK converted PDF) and the new book (ProPhoto RGB with No Conversion PDF).

                                                                               

                                                                              That would depend on lot of variables. Again color on an offset press is variable depending on the ink densities during the print run—it would be difficult to know if a change in color is related to an extra conversion or different densities during the runs.

                                                                               

                                                                              You can test RGB>CMYK1>CMYK2 vs RGB>CMYK2 in Photoshop and see the output value differences.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                rob day wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                I just created a non-PDF/X format PDF with the below settings and it renders properly with any assigned RGB or CMYK profile image.

                                                                                Ok I thought you were concerned about color when you share the file. Your preference (see#31) is probably set to Automatic. If you pass the file to me I would see the CMYK OP simulation because my preference is set to Always. I'm not sure why you don't want the CMYK simulation—

                                                                                 

                                                                                Sorry for the confusion. I have two objectives:

                                                                                 

                                                                                1) Prevent CMYK gamut clipping due to two CMYK conversions of the InDesign ProPhoto RGB book PDF during book hardcopy printing by Blurb.

                                                                                 

                                                                                2) Output the Prophoto RGB InDesign book layout to Adobe RGB color space for screen viewing on wide gamut displays.

                                                                                 

                                                                                rob day wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                If they are doing double CMYK conversions I would assume I'll see a difference between the previous book (Blurb CMYK converted PDF) and the new book (ProPhoto RGB with No Conversion PDF).

                                                                                 

                                                                                That would depend on lot of variables. Again color on an offset press is variable depending on the ink densities during the print run—it would be difficult to know if a change in color is related to an extra conversion or different densities during the runs.

                                                                                 

                                                                                You can test RGB>CMYK1>CMYK2 vs RGB>CMYK2 in Photoshop and see the output value differences.

                                                                                That is not correct and in fact the primary issue–

                                                                                 

                                                                                Blurb only makes one (1) Generic Blurb.icc profile available, but not the actual CMYK profile used by the target printer for the 1 of 5  specific target papers.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Choose the right paper for your photo book – Help Center

                                                                                 

                                                                                I realize there may be printing variations that have nothing to do with the CMYK conversions. It will still be interesting to see the Convert to Blurb CMYK PDF book copy side-by-side with the No Conversion ProPhoto RGB PDF book copy. I'll keep you posted on the results.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                  2) Output the Prophoto RGB InDesign book layout to Adobe RGB color space for screen viewing on wide gamut displays.

                                                                                  Again, you can't control the client's viewer application or how it is setup. That's why when you export an Interactive PDF from ID everything gets converted into sRGB—you can check that with Acrobat's object inspector. The conversion prevents the problems I'm showing in applications with no color management ie iOS mobile or Firefox PDF display.

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                  You can test RGB>CMYK1>CMYK2 vs RGB>CMYK2 in Photoshop and see the output value differences.

                                                                                  That is not correct and in fact the primary issue–

                                                                                  I see output value differences with an extra conversion.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  If I start with a saturated color like 255|235|0 assigned ProPhotoRGB, and do perceptual conversions to Blurb_ICC_Profile and then to US Web Uncoated, Photoshop's Info panel shows an outptut CMYK value of 1|10|85|0 for the destination uncoated sheet. If I make the conversion directly from ProPhoto RGB to US Web Uncoated I get an output CMYK value of 0|7|100|0—really different output values for the same destination. It illustrates a classic problem with CMYK-to-CMYK conversions.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  if you are sure they are really running different CMYK profiles at output, providing RGB would prevent the above differences.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                    rob day wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    2) Output the Prophoto RGB InDesign book layout to Adobe RGB color space for screen viewing on wide gamut displays.

                                                                                    Again, you can't control the client's viewer application or how it is setup. That's why when you export an Interactive PDF from ID everything gets converted into sRGB—you can check that with Acrobat's object inspector. The conversion prevents the problems I'm showing in applications with no color management ie iOS mobile or Firefox PDF display.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    OK, I will tell users to download and use Adobe Reader DC with its defaults settings. That should work with Windows and OS X systems with any type of display (standard or wide gamut). The PDF book file will be distributed so no need for browser viewing at this time. I'll investigate iOS and Android tablets using Adobe Digital Editions with the Adobe PDF and EPUB file formats.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    rob day wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    You can test RGB>CMYK1>CMYK2 vs RGB>CMYK2 in Photoshop and see the output value differences.

                                                                                    That is not correct and in fact the primary issue–

                                                                                    I see output value differences with an extra conversion.

                                                                                    Agreed, same here as expected.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I just received the 2nd printed book copy.  I used Blurb's Semi-matte Coated 80# paper for both books and the color and B&W images on that paper looks identical in both books. I have a large ColorChecker placed image and some out of gamut color in certain images like the Bell Coat of Arms picture I posted. Again they look identical in both books under critical examination, which is good enough for me. Now the surprise! The book dust jacket cover is printed on a very heavy glossy laminated stock. The new book dust jacket printed using ProPhoto RGB placed images and PDF Export with No Conversion has noticeably higher color saturation, brightness and richer blacks. Also the hardcopy book cover when compared to the screen image (not soft proof) inside InDesign looks almost identical.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    It appears Blurb is in fact using a different target printer and paper type specific CMYK profile during PDF RIP. Since I don't see any difference in the pages color image rendering I thinks it's safe to say the single Blurb.icc profile used for CMYK Conversion (Covert to Destination Preserve Numbers) in exporting the first book from InDesign matches the characteristics of Blurb's Semi-matte Coated 80# paper. This is also confirmed when using the Blurb.icc for soft proof comparison to the hardcopy printed page.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    So submitting an RGB PDF using ProPhoto RGB images with No Conversion to Blurb does prevent double CMYK conversion. In the case of Blub's Semi-matte Coated 80# paper the only benefit is that the slip cover does not suffer gamut clipping due to two-CMYK conversions. In the case of Blurb's more expensive coated paper options the book pages should benefit as well.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Thanks again for your feedback and assistance!

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Pro Photo RGB to CMYK
                                                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                      Looks like the latest iOS 10.1 is picking up RGB profiles. Don't know about Android. Guess you have to weigh how often you use the outer edges of the gamut vs. inability of some viewing applications to color manage.