32 Replies Latest reply on Jan 13, 2012 7:09 AM by Peter Spier

    Collaborating with Editors question

    TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

      Hi,

       

      I did a complete book layout in InDesign.

       

      The publisher now says he is not happy with the editing (my side of

      things -- the design work -- is fine) and he wants the entire book to go

      through another round of editing.

       

      The book has already been through several rounds of proofreading (ie

      checking the PDF for mistakes and keying these changes into InDesign),

      and they don't want to lose that work. What this means is that I, as

      typesetter, am the only one who has the very latest version of the text.

       

      As there are going to be extensive changes (I'm not sure what) and the

      publisher wants to work off the latest version, he wants me to export

      all the text as a Word file and then the editors will work on that.

       

      However, the publisher is aware that in such a case I'll have to redo

      the layout, and he wants to avoid that extra expense, so he asked me if

      there is any way that the editors can work on the text without my having

      to redo the layout.

       

      My immediate thought was InCopy (which I've never used, only heard

      about) -- the publisher could use the 30-day trial (at this stage,

      obviously if they like it they may purchase the thing). But

       

      (1) I'm on CS4 and the downloads of InCopy are all CS5.5. That won't

      work together, right?

       

      (2) Can I get hold of InCopy CS4 anywhere?

       

      (3) Is the learning curve (both for me and the editor) going to be too

      steep to do this in 30 days?

       

      (4) Are the editors going to mess up my styles? I mean, if they need

      some italics, how will they know to use my italics char style? And if

      they need a subtitle paragraph style, how will they know to use that? If

      I'm going to have to go through the entire book figuring out what

      they've meddled with, I think it will be more trouble than it's worth

      and I'd rather use the Word workflow.

       

      Thanks for any advice,

       

      Ariel

       

        • 1. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
          Peter Kahrel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Ariel,

           

          A fine mess you find yourself in. I would say, forget about InCopy: if you fear that the authors are going to make a mess of Word files, they'll mess up InCopy files, too.

           

          I think you'll have to bite the bullet: give the authors a Word file and re-set the text. I'm sure that in the end that's easiest for the authors and for you, too. And charge the publisher for the new setting as if was a new setting, and charge them a fee for all the extra work. The publisher messed up, so make sure they pay for it.

           

          Good luck,

           

          Peter

          • 2. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
            TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Thanks Peter, I'm inclined to agree with you.

             

            It occurs to me that there might be some way in Word of locking the text

            so that only minimal edits are allowed (textual edits only). Worth

            looking into?

             

            Thanks,

            Ariel

            • 3. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
              TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Thanks Peter, I'm inclined to agree with you.

               

              It occurs to me that there might be some way in Word of locking the text

              so that only minimal edits are allowed (textual edits only). Worth

              looking into?

               

              Thanks,

              Ariel

              • 4. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                Peter Kahrel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I don't know about that Word feature. But then, I know very little about Word anyway. Could be worth checking out, though.

                 

                Peter

                • 5. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                  TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  "Protect Document" allows you to force tracked changes to be used. Can't

                  see anything relevant apart from that.

                   

                  Thanks,

                  Ariel

                  • 6. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                    Mary Posner Level 3

                    I think a lot would depend on how complicated the design of this book is. If there's a lot of formatting, dozens or hundreds of character and paragraph styles, etc., that's probably not something you're keen to re-do.

                     

                    However, InCopy does have a bit of a learning curve for editors who are used to using Word. The learning curve for you shouldn't be too steep -- you'll need to learn how to create InCopy stories and export them so they'd editable by the editors, but otherwise InCopy is basically just the text editing features of InDesign, with a few extra writing tools (such as the thesaurus) thrown in. As the designer, you'll hardly ever use InCopy, if at all, but you can probably answer most questions for a new InCopy user as most editing elements are the same in both programs.

                     

                    There are other things to consider too - if the editors don't have the fonts installed, they aren't going to see accurate line breaks or copyfit, and may do damage attempting to "fix" something that isn't really wrong. And as you noted, it would probably be best to provide a spec sheet showing what styles to apply where.

                     

                    InCopy is a great tool, and in the hands of editors who have been trained and who have adequate support, it can save a lot of time on a project, particularly if it's planned for upfront. But I think that training needs to happen as the project is starting up, not at the stage you're currently in. Perhaps they could stick with the PDF mark-ups and send you patch files in Word for any sections that need signficiant changes.

                     

                    BTW, you might want to post your question over in the main InDesign forum if you haven't already. I'm sure you'll find other InCopy users there, or others who have faced the same kind of dilemma. The main forum tends to get more traffic than the scripting one does, and you'll reach a broader range of users there.

                     

                    Good luck!

                    • 7. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                      TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Thanks Mary. I haven't used InCopy at all, so your advice is helpful.

                       

                      And you're quite right -- I posted this in the wrong forum by mistake

                      (via email it's fairly easy to do that).

                       

                      I'll try and get a moderator to move it over.

                       

                      Thanks,

                      Ariel

                      • 8. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                        Harbs. Level 6

                        Moved by Ariel's request...

                        • 9. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                          TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Thanks Mary. I haven't used InCopy at all, so your advice is helpful.

                           

                          And you're quite right -- I posted this in the wrong forum by mistake

                          (via email it's fairly easy to do that). Harbs has kindly sorted that out.

                           

                          Thanks,

                          Ariel

                          • 10. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                            InCopy is perfect tool for this and it's really not all that hard to use.

                             

                            The issue is that you both need to be on the same version. InCopy CS5.5 and InDesign CS4 are not going to work very well together. The points that Mary made are a dead on.

                             

                            The other nice thing about this is you can put everything in a Dropbox folder and share it. It's like you're both in the same office.

                             

                            Bob

                            • 11. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              I'm not an InCopy user, either, but I think that if you decide that's the route to follow, I would suggest that CS5.5 is the way to go, and that you should upgrade ID on your end as well (and bill the publisher) so everyone can easily be on the same, current version. I think you'll have one heck of a time finding InCopy CS4 (and are we talking ME here?). You'll probalby want to open the file in CS5 and force a recompose before sending out, too, if you go that route, to get all the reflow issues not caused by editing out of the way.

                               

                              As far as improper use of styles, you'll have that in both Word and IC. You've already got scripts, I know, to fix formatting on new work, so I don't see that as a huge issue necessarily. I think that the publisher not wanting to lose the effort you've put in so far is a bit of a pipe-dream, though. There is no way this is not going to be a nightmare.

                              • 12. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                "Protect Document" allows you to force tracked changes to be used. Can't see anything relevant apart from that.

                                Actually, you can use it to do exactly what you proposed:

                                It occurs to me that there might be some way in Word of locking the text so that only minimal edits are allowed (textual edits only). Worth looking into?

                                It's called "Limit formatting to a selection of styles" under "Restrict formatting and editing." It really does what it says - pretty mcuh the entire ribbon (Word 2007) is greyed out, all you can do is key in text and click on names of styles.  If you have a perfectly styled InDesign doc with all text frames threaded, then you can export RTF, hand off for editing, and re-place the edited file into ID and clear overrides. I do it all the time. It only works because my editors understand what I'm doing and why, and because they tend to respect styles anyways. I've found that contributors that can't be trusted to not munge up Word files tend to scream when they are asked to participate in a workflow like this one.

                                 

                                However, the phrase I use in our office to describe this workflow is "poor man's InCopy." Which isn't really accurate, but it does highlight the fact that InCopy is much better for this kind of workflow than running RTF files into and out of ID. 

                                 

                                There are also third-party tools like DocsFlow or StoryTweaker that might suit you.

                                • 13. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                  Grant H Level 4

                                  what about CS review?

                                   

                                  G

                                  • 14. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                    TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Hi Joel,

                                     

                                    That sounds exactly like what I need. I don't think the editors will

                                    like it, but the publisher will probably agree to make them use it.

                                     

                                    I can't find the feature though. I think it must be in a later version

                                    of Word. I'm still on XP. Do you know if it existed in XP?

                                     

                                    I'll also look into the tools you mention.

                                     

                                    Thanks,

                                    Ariel

                                    • 15. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                      TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Thanks Bob, Peter. Just saw your comments now.

                                       

                                      I managed to find InCopy CS4 here

                                      http://trials.adobe.com/Applications/InCopy/CS4/Win/ADBEAICYCS4_LS1.7z?PID=2159997

                                       

                                      Got the link from some other website.

                                       

                                      However, it's weird. The download comes in two parts: the big 464MB part

                                      ends in .7z and a smaller  1.17 MB part has no extension. Double

                                      clicking doesn't do anything. Do you know how I would install this? It

                                      looks legit inasmuch as it comes from the Adobe site.

                                       

                                      Also, I don't think this is the ME version. And I'm using InDesign ME.

                                      Would that be a problem? If I could install InCopy I could start playing

                                      around.

                                       

                                      The publisher is not going to pay me to upgrade, and I'm hoping to get

                                      a free license to the next version so I don't want to upgrade myself at

                                      this stage.

                                       

                                      I don't think I'd quite call this a nightmare, but it does look like

                                      it's going to be a fiddly business!

                                       

                                      Thanks,

                                      Ariel

                                      • 16. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                        TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Never heard of it. What is it?

                                        • 17. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                          Grant H Level 4

                                          have you researched cs review and CS5, text editing feature...

                                           

                                          G

                                          • 18. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                            Put both files in the same folder and double click the exe file.

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            Bob

                                            • 19. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                              TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Nope. I'll look into that as well. Thanks.

                                              • 20. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                It works! Installing now. Thank you.

                                                • 21. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                  TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Okay. So I opened an InDesign file in InCopy, but can't edit anything.

                                                   

                                                  What's the simplest way of opening an InDesign file so that InCopy users

                                                  can edit everything (all stories)?

                                                   

                                                  I'll be reading the help files meanwhile, but I get a notification as

                                                  soon as this post is answered!

                                                   

                                                  Thanks,

                                                  Ariel

                                                  • 22. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                    Mary Posner Level 3

                                                    You have to create the InCopy files through InDesign. This might be a good place to start:

                                                     

                                                    http://incopysecrets.com/incopy-cs4-hands-on-guide.php

                                                     

                                                    The first few pages detail how to create InCopy files for layout-based or assignment-based workflows.

                                                    • 23. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                      TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      Thank you.

                                                       

                                                      Ariel

                                                      • 24. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                        Harbs. Level 6

                                                        Arïel wrote:

                                                         

                                                        Also, I don't think this is the ME version. And I'm using InDesign ME.

                                                        Would that be a problem? If I could install InCopy I could start playing

                                                        around.

                                                         

                                                        No problem. The regular version should work with ME fine.

                                                         

                                                        Of course you can't change ME features...

                                                         

                                                        Harbs

                                                        • 25. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                          TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Thanks Harbs.

                                                           

                                                          I don't know. This looks complicated.

                                                           

                                                          Our editors are none too technical. I just need a simple way to send

                                                          them the InDesign file, let them open it in InCopy, edit the contents,

                                                          save it, and send it back to me with the changes. I don't need stories

                                                          and assignments and checking out and checking in, and they certainly

                                                          don't either. In fact, I don't know why I'm writing in the plural. Only

                                                          one editor will be working on this (don't know which one yet).

                                                           

                                                          Is there a way to keep it simple?

                                                           

                                                          Thanks,

                                                          Ariel

                                                          • 26. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                            Put it in a Dropbox folder.

                                                             

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            Export all stories to InCopy and browse to the Dropbox folder.

                                                             

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            The editors can then open the ID file and check out any stories they need to work on. When done they check them back in and the InDesign file will update.

                                                             

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            Bob

                                                            • 27. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                              TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              I see. That seems to work. All the editors need to know is:

                                                               

                                                              (1) open the .indd file. Don't touch anything else.

                                                              (2) point to the paragraph you want to change. Start typing. InCopy will

                                                              ask if you want to check out the story. Click yes.

                                                              (3) When  you're done for today, go to File>Check In All Stories.

                                                               

                                                              Will this work if I zip all the files (InDesign + InCopy exports), email

                                                              them the zip package, they unzip, do as above, rezip and email back to me?

                                                               

                                                              Thanks for your help,

                                                               

                                                              Ariel

                                                              • 28. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                Everything is right until you get to the zip it up stuff.

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                Don’t do that! You can package assignments but I would recommend the Dropbox method for beginners.

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                Bob

                                                                • 29. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                                  TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  I installed DropBox a few weeks ago, and really didn't like it. It gives

                                                                  me the creeps.

                                                                   

                                                                  InCopy is too complicated for our needs, I think. It's a shame there

                                                                  isn't a way simply to email an InDesign file to the editors. Then they

                                                                  open it in InCopy, edit the text only, save, and send back to me.

                                                                   

                                                                  That's all we would need at this stage.

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks for all your help,

                                                                  Ariel

                                                                  • 30. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                    If you turn the entire InDesign document into an assignment you can do just that.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    Create the assignment, add all the stories to it and then from the assignments panel menu choose Package for InCopy. I suspect you’re going to have a file too large to email so you’ll need to use a service of some type like YouSendIt.com.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    I’m curious, though…why does Dropbox give you the creeps? I’ve been using it for over a year and happily paying for the 50 gigs of storage. It makes collaborative workflows a breeze and also allows me to sync my desktop and laptop machines with zero effort.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    Bob

                                                                    • 31. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                                      TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      Thanks Bob,

                                                                       

                                                                      I'll play around with it again after Shabbos.

                                                                       

                                                                      Dropbox gives me the creeps because that shared folder reminds me of a

                                                                      trapdoor in the basement. Who knows what might creep through it in the

                                                                      night!

                                                                       

                                                                      More rationally, it seemed like a heavy install -- I'm nervous about

                                                                      things that add context menus and fancy new folders to my OS.

                                                                       

                                                                      Thanks,

                                                                      Ariel

                                                                      • 32. Re: Collaborating with Editors question
                                                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                        I'm glad to see I'm not alone in my distaste for Dropbox. I guess I have no need for synching that Bob describes.

                                                                         

                                                                        I have a YouSendIt account and it works just fine, and has practically no presence at all.