14 Replies Latest reply on Jan 16, 2012 5:32 AM by Harm Millaard

    Compatibility Issues?




      I recently tried out the trial for Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5, as well as After Effects and Audition.


      I was using footage shot with a 5D Mark II (DSLR footage) and exported into a computer on a .mov format.

      I started editing on another computer which lacked efficiency so I moved those files later to my current

      more powerful computer.


      After doing so I hoped for a more smooth editing and faster rendering, but that did not happen, in fact it

      sometimes went as slow as the former computer, mainly due to the effects, but still. Is there a reason

      why some of the frequent shutdowns occur, and why rendering can be so slow?



      My current computer:

      CPU:           Intel i7 990x Extreme

      RAM:          12GB

      GPU:  GTX 580

      SDD:          120GB

      HDD:          1.5TB (SCRATCH, CACHE)



      I have these RAM and CPU usage guages. The RAM rarely went over 40% and the CPU did not even reach 20%.

      I was however using a Red Giant effect on some of the files, which I understand is very heavy.




      Is this due to the heavy .mov files, in which case should I convert them, or is there something else I missed?

        • 1. Re: Compatibility Issues?
          lasvideo Level 4

          If you have applied a Red Giant effect, you MUST render the clips.

          • 2. Re: Compatibility Issues?
            YoMoma4real Level 1

            Yeah, it is just that it takes a lot of time to render, even the smallest clips.

            And I do not know if that relates to the Red Giant Effect, or the size of the

            source file. I just need faster and smoother workflow.

            • 3. Re: Compatibility Issues?
              Harm Millaard Level 7

              You have several problems:


              1. Not enough memory. Increase it to 24 Gb
              2. Not enough disks. Get at least 4 more in two raid0 arrays or better.
              3. Stay away from QuiRcktime MOV formats.
              4. Try to find an alternative for RedGiant effects that does not take that long.
              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                And I do not know if that relates to the Red Giant Effect


                It does.  They're just notoriously slow to render.

                • 5. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                  lasvideo Level 4

                  Red Giant sells LOTS of plugins. Which one are you specifically referring to?

                  • 6. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                    YoMoma4real Level 1

                    DeNoiser, first and foremost, and Starglow.

                    • 7. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                      YoMoma4real Level 1

                      This is really helpful, thank you!

                      But excuse me for asking, how will raid, and more disk help out, specifically?

                      • 8. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                        You have one of the best CPU's available, a hex core with tremendous speed potential. But, as with all systems, the overall performance is dictated by the weakest component and that component causes the CPU to have to wait at regular intervals instead of going on at full speed.


                        5D material is a very difficult codec to edit. It requires a very powerful PC. It is expanded on-the-fly from its highly compressed state to an editable state and that means moving a lot of data all the time. Some .MOV formats are handled internally by PR and then they are using the 64 bit engine that PR has, but some .MOV formats are handled by the included QT Server module. QT by itself is a 32 bit application, so if the 5D material is handled by the QT Server engine, it defeats the 64 bit nature of PR. I do not know whether 5D material is handled internally (64 bit) or handed over to the 32 bit QT engine.


                        Regardless, when expanding on-the-fly, huge amounts of data are being pushed over the bus in the system. Limited memory can lead the system to use temp storage place as in the pagefile, another disk activity next to the Windows generated disk activities for housekeeping, maintaining logs, etc. This can be aggravated by background processes and services that are started when Windows starts, they all take memory and use CPU cycles, so they decrease resources available to PR. That is why tuning a system can give you better performance by simply turning off unneeded services and processes. See Adobe Forums: Guide for installing and tuning a Vista... which also applies to Win7.


                        More and faster disks are another helpful method to improve performance. Since disks can do only one thing at a time, either reading or writing but not both, it means that for each video track in use you need some disk activity to read the source file, and expand it. If you have multiple video tracks ideally you would have multiple disks, each containing the material from one track, since then the reading of source material can be done in parallel. In practice this is unworkable, and that is why people use raid arrays. By using a (r)aid0, which uses two (or more) disks to act as one disk to the OS it almost doubles the performance in comparison to a single disk, reducing a further bottleneck in system performance. See Adobe Forums: To RAID or not to RAID, that is the... and Adobe Forums: Generic Guideline for Disk Setup


                        There are more interesting FAQ articles in the Hardware forum under the Overview tab.

                        • 9. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                          how will raid, and more disk help out, specifically?


                          They won't.  Not with those effects.  A better graphics card is about all you can do on this front, but you're already near the top of the game on this one, so there's really not a whole lot you can do.

                          • 10. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                            Harm Millaard Level 7

                            Common wisdom does not apply to you Jim. You have been obstinate on this topic since day 1 and still do not grasp the impact of multiple disks or raids. Numerous times I have explained to you why you are wrong but it appears you don't want to listen. Well, that is your problem, but the benchmarks clearly show you wrong. May I suggest you go back to a single disk on a Core2Duo system, using a $ 30 ATI video card and only 2 GB memory to prove your point?

                            • 11. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                              lasvideo Level 4

                              Yo-"how will raid, and more disk help out, specifically?"


                              It accelerates thru put of information thru the computer. To see this Goolge read and write speed for a raid array products using Areca controller cards (I use Maxx Digital) then search for the same info related to a single internal hard disk. Im sure Harm can elaborate on the more technical details of the process.

                              • 12. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                                Jim_Simon Level 8

                                Numerous times I have explained to you why you are wrong


                                Why don't you give it one more try, Harm.  Explain to be how a system that is bottlenecked at the GPU will significantly improve by improving the hard drives.

                                • 13. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                                  Powered by Design Level 4

                                  @ Jim


                                  If his bottleneck is his GPU and he has a GTX 580 what are his options.


                                  I thought the GTX 580 was the best for NOW.


                                  I know the 600 series will come out soo but what to do for now.




                                  • 14. Re: Compatibility Issues?
                                    Harm Millaard Level 7



                                    The OP's system is not bottlenecked by the GPU. RedGiant effects do not use hardware MPE. I don't know how well these specific RedGiant effects are threaded, but usually that is the weakness with RedGiant, the threading. Unless you can use MPE accelerated effects instead of RedGiant, you have to accept the long render times.


                                    But, a system with a single SSD and a single HDD with only 12 MB memory is severly hampered. Why? You always mention that a single stream of AVCHD is only 24 Mbps and that is more than enough for a single hard disk to cope with. If that were the whole story, you are correct. But there is more to it that that.


                                    First of all, there is Windows and it needs to do its house keeping. The NTFS file tables need to be kept up to date, writing log files for the events viewer, writing last access and modify dates on all the files that are accessed by applications, processes or services, This is done on the C drive, a SSD in this case and as we all know, SSD writes are the weakest point of an SSD. If indexing and compression are not turned off, it even gets worse.


                                    Second, there is the timeline. I just tested a new timeline for the PPBM6 benchmark and you can clearly see the following PF activities on certain parts of the time line:


                                    PF: BGRX 4 4 4 4 8u

                                    PF: YUV 4 2 0  MPEG4 Field Picture Planer 8u 709

                                    PF: VUY 4 2 2  8u 709

                                    PF: VUY 4 2 2  8u 709

                                    PF: YUV 4 2 0 MPEG4 Field Picture Planer 8u 709

                                    PF: PAL DV

                                    PF: VUY 4 2 2 8u 709


                                    This means that each and every track in use requires on the fly unpacking to a data format that requires a lot more than just 24 Mbps. Even 7 tracks of AVCHD would amount to around 168 Mbps, but expanded will amount to a multitude of that. If this would be one single sequential data stream, maybe that could be handled, but all these streams are physically in different locoations on the disk and then access time, repositioning the read heads and reading the data will bring a single disk to its knees. If you take into consideration that the memory requirements for unpacking the video to their BGRX or YUV 709 format are very sizable, the pagefile can come into play, further reducing the effective transfer rate of this single data disk. Add to that the housekeeping tasks on the data disk by Windows, and you have a serious bottleneck.


                                    Just like a car driver can have a very fast Porsche Cayman R, capable of a top speed of 282 KM/h, he can only drive at those kind of speeds if the road and conditions allow it. If he drives on a single lane road, he can forget about it, but if he drives on a deserted 4 lane highway in Germany, that top speed is completely possible and nice , at least according to my brother. He did get pissed of, that a Carrera 4S overtook him, but for the rest all those slow Audi, BMW and Mercedes cars has to get out of his way when he went from 5-th to 6-th gear, doing around 220 KM/h.


                                    The OP has a great CPU and GPU, but to stay in the analogy above, he is driving on a single lane road, with some really slow Audi, BMW and Mercedes cars in front of him, holding him back from his full potential.


                                    PS. I further tested this timeline and the required sustained read transfer rate exceeds 300 MB/s with only 2 R3D tracks, a figure impossible for a single disk. If you were to have 4 tracks or were encoding (not only reading, but also writing) the required bandwidth is much higher.