16 Replies Latest reply on Jan 19, 2012 1:57 AM by Harm Millaard

    G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5

    kingdomofsolomon

      Hello every one,

       

      I would like to ask this question hope to find good answer for it, im sure there are alot other people would like to find out as will.

       

      dose G-tech Drive makes Pr or Ae fast in randring and speed of the editing?

      if yes which one of these drive will be good for Dv, HD, 4K video.

      http://www.ebuyer.com/176298-iomega-ultramax-plus-4tb-external-hard-drive-hi-speed-usb-fir ewire-34537#product-description

       

      http://www.ebuyer.com/239623-hitachi-4tb-g-tech-g-raid-gen4-external-hard-drive-2-bays-0g0 0274

       

      Thank you

        • 1. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          A waste of money. It runs at maximum about as fast as a single internal disk. You will need a very good internal dedicated raid and controller to handle anything 4K with a semblance of acceptable speed. Think € 850 for the raid controller, at least the same amount for disks and you still have to preview at 1/4 resolution for 4K material, even with a furtherwise capable system.

          • 2. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
            kingdomofsolomon Level 1

            Thank you Harm, any advice which controller and which internal drive would you recommend with the price of $600

            • 3. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
              RjL190365 Level 4

              I'm not Harm, but given today's very high prices for hard drives, you will not be able to get what your video content requires for anywhere close to $600 total. In fact, you will need to at least quadruple that budget - to at least $2,500 just for the storage system. This is because that amount now buys you only three disks and no controller at today's overinflated prices - and some of today's current production 7200 RPM hard drives fall below 70 MB/s on the innermost tracks. As such, with typical Western Digital hard drives, three disks, even in a single aid0 array, will net you a minimum transfer speed that's less than one-third the rate required for RED4K.

               

              Barring that, the best that you can do right now (given that extremely tight budget) is to forego an external RAID altogether and simply buy four 1TB SATA 7200 RPM hard drives - and configure each pair of them in a two-disk aid0 array (you would have two 2-disk aid0 arrays total) on the motherboard's onboard SATA controller.

               

              But if you really want your system to handle RED 4K content, as Harm stated, you really need a minimum sustained disk transfer rate of 600 MB/s just to even handle three or more layers of such content smoothly. Unfortunately, due to the fact that all mechanical hard drives drop off in sequential transfer rate on the inner portions of the disk, you will need at least 12 to 16 hard drives plus a discrete RAID controller. At current inflated prices (even here in the U.S.) plus the fact that many resellers are limiting hard drive purchases to only one disk at a time, that's going to be extremely tough (if not impossible) to pull off. As a rough estimate, using the $126.28 shipped price at Newegg for a 1TB Hitachi 7K1000.D hard drive (one of the fastest current 7200 RPM hard drives in sequential speed performance) as an example, the required disks alone cost a grand total of more than $1,500. (If you have slightly older disks with 500 GB per platter such as the Samsung F3 1TB, you may need all of 16 disks just to even achieve that minimum level of performance - and 16 F3s now cost well over $2,600 total, making them a relatively poor value compared to the 12 Hitachis.) Add to that the $1,050 cost of the 16-port Areca ARC-1882iX-16 card (or $1,250 fior the 24-port version of the same card), and you'll end up blowing $2,765 for the 24-port card plus 12 Hitachi drives (the minimum that's required to handle RED4K smoothly). With the Samsung disks, you'd end blowing almost $4,000 for that minimum required disk setup.

               

              Message was edited by: RjL190365

              • 4. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                JEShort01 Level 4

                KingofSolomon,

                 

                The 2nd link that you point to, the Hitachi 2x2TB (4TB) choice, using the RAID 0 configuration and connected to your PC using the eSATA connection should work very well including editing 4k. I'm basing this on some testing done on Hitachi's lesser, but still amazing performance, G-RAID "mini" which is similar, but uses 2.5" 7200 drives.

                 

                Hitachi really did a great job on the G-RAIDs; the worst case read speed for the "mini" is 102 MB/sec and the larger 3.5" devices is sure to be even faster. My testing was done attached using a G-RAID mini set to RAID 0 and using an eSATA connection to a X58 PC and using HD Tune Pro 4.60 and a 2MB block size.

                 

                Jim

                • 5. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                  I have been testing a new benchmark timeline for PPBM6 which comprises a mix of materials, including RED 4K, EPIC 4K, Canon XF 4:2:2 50 Mb, AVCHD, XDCAM EX, XDCAM HD, HDV and other source formats in a 7 track timeline. It will not surprise you that this is pretty demanding stuff. The main bottleneck I have with this material is the CPU, but followed by memory and disk I/O. Just playing this timeline, and I'm not talking about encoding, just reading the files, requires around 300 MB/s read speeds while using around 12 GB of memory. If you were encoding, it would get worse, since playing a pre-rendered timeline is pretty easy. Since the timeline is not very difficult by itself, using only two tracks of R3D material at any moment in time, the system is not stressed very much. How different things would be if one were to use multiple layers of R3D material at the same moment.

                   

                  The above test indicates that your disk I/O sytem needs to be able to handle a sustained transfer rate of at least 600 MB/s for any 3 track or higher number of R3D material. Better transfer rates are better of course. That would imply to me that for my next system, I need a disk setup like this:

                   

                  • Areca ARC-1882iX-16 controller € 850, plus 4 GB cache module € 40 plus a BBM € 115, total for the controller € 1005
                  • 4 x SSD in Raid10 for OS, Crucial M4 128 GB @ € 165, total € 660, OS & programs
                  • 16 x Hitachi 7K3000 2 TBin Raid30 (2 x 7 + 2 Hot spares) @ € 144, total € 2304, media and projects
                  • 3 x Hitachi 7K3000 2 TB in Raid0 @ € 144, total € 432, pagefile and scratch

                   

                  Total cost at current inflated prices € 4401, including 19% VAT, excluding rebates.

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                    RjL190365 Level 4

                    As Harm stated, the G-RAID really is limited by its single eSATA 3.0 Gbps connection (the devices do not currently support SATA 6.0 Gbps yet), which gives a maximum sequential read speed of only about 270 MB/s - and that's for the whole G-RAID setup put together. In other words, the interface itself is very limiting to the device's maximum sequential performance. Ever tried driving on a road designed to be driven at 90 MPH, only to find out that your car is governor-limited to only 50 MPH? That's exactly analogous to the performance of the G-RAID that uses a single eSATA connection. (To be honest, however, the minimum sustained transfer speed of a G-RAID is naturally higher than with any single-disk non-RAID setup for the exact same reason that the minimum sequential transfer rate of any modern aid0 array is faster than a single disk.)

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                      kingdomofsolomon Level 1

                      Thank you very much for all this information, I hope this discussion has helped other people in there disk setup as will.

                       

                       

                       

                      Thank you kindly

                      • 8. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                        JEShort01 Level 4

                        Kingofsolomon,

                         

                        And I hope people keep reading on, or they may be mislead. Hitachi's G-RAID devices connected using an eSATA connection works great for editing with Premiere Pro CS 5.0.

                         

                        While I had cited benchmark testing in my previous post, I have now just completed testing using a 4-layer RED project (combination of 4k and 4.5k clips) with ALL files (media, project, media cache, media cache DB, and all scratch files) on a single external eSATA connected Hitachi G-RAID mini 1TB drive (internally has 2x500GB 7200rpm 2.5" drives). And, both playback and scrubbing appear to be flawless on my system at full playback resolution. My testing was done after a full timeline render so CPU usage was minimal and the hard drives are being pushed hard.

                         

                        Randall (RjL190365), I'm not why you are commenting that 270 MB/sec is a bottleneck for editing DV, HD, and yes, even 4k media. Possibly you are thinking about bits instead of bytes (bytes are 8 times as large as bits). Red 4k does come has some different variants, but they are on the order of 36 MBytes/sec, or 288 Mbits/sec, and most certainly can be edited on a eSATA connected device limited as you say above to 270 MB/sec (2160 Mbits/sec).

                         

                        Jim

                        • 9. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                          wonderspark Level 1

                          Interesting, but you have to render everything to watch it or even scrub it? That's a bit of a drag, isn't it? How long does it take you to render one hour of RED footage prior to playback and scrubbing?

                           

                          What is your timeline set for? If it's set as 1920x1080, doesn't that mean rendering it all out first results in actually editing via previews built as 1920x1080 as opposed to editing native 4k or 4.5k clips?

                           

                          I'm somewhat perplexed as to the disparity in the two viewpoints that you need X speed to edit RED footage in realtime.

                          • 10. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                            JEShort01 Level 4

                            Wonderspark,

                             

                            RED is a pretty intense format, and 4-layers even more so! Regarding what speed do you need to edit 4-layers of RED in real time, I suspect that you would need RED's "RED Rocket" hardware card to supplement an already fast PC.

                             

                            My 4-layer test timeline is set to 4480 x 1920 (1.0), 23.976 fps, and 48000 Hz stereo. My X58 PC is fast, but it is brought to its knees by simply trying to play a 4-layer RED 4k/4.5k project on the timeline with playback resolution set to full (w/ MPE accelaration on and no rendering; timeline shows yellow) no matter what drive array I have tried, including an Areca array similar to yours. CPU is 6-core i7-970 OC'd to 4.4GHz, MPE is using a GTX 480, and I'm using 24GB of RAM. RED is not "uncompressed"; it is actually very compressed, so I suspect what is happening here is that there is simply not enough CPU/GPU to pull this off.

                             

                            Regarding the disparity in viewpoints, let's skip the technical specifications and say:

                            - one or two 2x7200rpm RAID 0 arrays will suffice for most users for most media

                            - Hitachi's eSATA connected G-RAID 2x2TB 7200 rpm RAID 0 external device is similar to the speed of a single motherboard connected 2x RAID 0 array and is not limited by the eSATA port

                             

                            Jim

                            • 11. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                              Actually with CS5.5 right now and 4K material from the Red 1 Camera, a 2 drive raid 0 is more than enough for 3 to 4 layers of 4K material. The Epic codec may have changed the bit rate some but I dont have Epic material in house yet to see how much. A single SSD drive especially one of the Marvell controller drives or some SF3 drives can handle it easily. The E-sata controller actually decides the the overall performance of the E-Sata bays. A 4 bay unit with a decent controller will give you around 220MB/s in raid 5. So you could handle atleast 3 to 4 layers of 4K material. However the E-sata drive latency will be a little higher so there will be a slight delay on starting playback. An Internal raid 0 array with the updated Intel driver would be easily able to handle it.

                               

                              Eric

                              ADK

                              • 12. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                                kingdomofsolomon Level 1

                                Thank you soo much for the information you have provided.

                                 

                                 

                                Thank you kindly

                                • 13. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                                  Jim,

                                   

                                  Your remark:

                                  - Hitachi's eSATA connected G-RAID 2x2TB 7200 rpm RAID 0 external device is similar to the speed of a single motherboard connected 2x RAID 0 array and is not limited by the eSATA port

                                   

                                  is not entirely correct, because eSATA is not a full duplex connection, in contrast to SAS, which is full duplex. Whether that has a performance impact will depend on your workflow and where you have set up your files, but potentially eSATA is twice slower than SAS/PCIe just because of the half duplex nature of the connection, without taking the raw speed of the connection into consideration.

                                   

                                  SATA and eSATA are half duplex, SAS/PCIe are full duplex connections.

                                  • 14. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                                    JEShort01 Level 4

                                    Harm,

                                     

                                    Even if my testing observations and technical knowledge are flawed - that is indeed possible - I feel you have challanged my remark with details about SAS that have no bearing whatsoever to the single eSATA vs. 2xSATA comparison that I intended.

                                     

                                    I stated that using a 2x RAID 0 Hitachi G-RAID connected via a single eSATA port performs similarly to a 2x RAID 0 motherboard connected array, and obviously this would be via two discrete SATA ports, one for each drive.

                                     

                                    You state that my remark is not entirely correct because eSATA is not a full duplex connection but that SAS is (full duplex). Since I am comparing a single eSATA port vs. dual SATA ports; I cannot follow this SAS performance argument at all.

                                     

                                    I've got a G-RAID Mini (2.5" disks, 7200rpm, only 500GB each) and took the time to test it with a 4-layer RED 4k/4.5k project just so I could reply knowledgebly on this thread.

                                     

                                    You influenced me to invest in a big, fast, and reliable Areca RAID, and I am very pleased with that decision. I do however want laptop users and those with cramped cases and/or cramped budgets to not give up on what seems to me to be a good option - eSATA connected storage.

                                     

                                    Regards,

                                     

                                    Jim

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 15. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                                      wonderspark Level 1

                                      Good to know, and thank you. I'm probably pretty spoiled right now working on mostly 5D and easier footage, but I'm ready to add another 8-bay tower if the need arises when I start cutting RED. (I only have 16 ports on my card.) I just hope that disk prices come back down before I need them! (:

                                      • 16. Re: G-Tech Drive with Adobe Preimere CS5
                                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                                        Jim,

                                         

                                        The problem with an eSATA connection is that it is a single half duplex connection. When using a SFF-8088 multilane connection, you have effectively 4 half duplex connections, so you may encounter situations where 2 are used to read data and the other 2 are used to write, and that will improve performance over just a single cable.

                                         

                                        Agreed, for laptop users, that is often not feasible. In those situations there is not much you can do, other than an external eSATA raid.