27 Replies Latest reply on Feb 1, 2012 6:45 AM by rob day

    InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles

    S4554

      Anyone understand what the deal is?

       

      1. Color calibrated monitor, named the new ICC profile "calibrated"

      2. Opened Photoshop, selected Edit/Color Management. Working RGB color space = Current monitor/calibrated. Working CMYK color space = U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2. Color Managment = RGB / OFF. CMYK / OFF. Grey = OFF.

      3. Edited RGB images, converted them to CMYK(Print Press suppled) ICC Profile and saved them as Photoshop image. When saving files, "embed ICC Profile" is OFF, as instructed by Print Press Company.

      4. Imported those Photoshop images into Illustrator, same color managment settings, altered images and saved as an Illustrator file. Illustrator export = Create PDF compatible file = YES. Embed ICC Profile = NO. Use compression = YES.

      5. Imported those Illustrator image/files into InDesign CS2 document, saved file. InDesgn color management is set identically to both Photoshop and Illustrator.

      6. However, when opening the InDessign file, a warning appears stating "Profile or Policy Mismatch", then asks to select either; "Leave document as is" or "Adjust document to match current color settings" - Policy: OFF.

      AND

      When selecting an Illustrator generated image within InDesign, the "Object / Image Color Settings" option remains unselectable in the menu.

       

      Any idea what the deal is?

      Should we have selected "Embed ICC Profile" when saving/exporting the modified image in Illustrator?

      From what we understand, the Printing Press company does not want any color profiles associated with the InDesign document.

      How do we fix this? (when generating a PDF that same warning appears)

        • 1. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          There are several things going on here.

           

          First, it's great that you calibrated your monitor, but it's not quite so great that you chose that profile as the working space, especially if you don't embed it.  Even less great is that you chose to turn off color management, so your applications are not making any attempt to mange color and preserve appearance. Using a device independent space, like sRGB or Adobe RGB, allows anyone with a claibrated monitor to see essentially the same colors because those profiles are standard, and the Adobe applications convert from the embedded profile to the display profile on the fly for viewing, as long as color management is enabled.

           

          Note that I said from the embedded profile above. If you don't embed the profiles, ID has no way of knowing what the correct profile is, unless you manually set the profile using Image color Settings, but that's only available for raster images, not PDF or .ai. If ID doesn't know what the correct profile is, then the color numbers are interpreted as being in the current working space (which, on your machine is probably correct, but won't be when it gets to the printer). That also will happen with color management set to OFF.

           

          So, we need to understand why you are taking these files into Illustrator for editing, first of all. Next we need to determine what CMYK space is appropriate. If you want accurate soft proofing, and you are not embedding a profile, your working spaces need to match from application to application, and the CMYK space is going to need to be the same as the final destination. We also need to know more about the images to know whether you are using 100% K blacks, or rich blacks in Illustrator, and whether conversion of 100K black to rich black will be a problem.

           

          When no profiles are embedded or Color management is off, as I mentioned before, your color numbers are interpreted as being in the working spaces, and are used unchanged. If the correct profile is not the same as the working space you will see color shifting. When color management is enabled and you have embedded profiles you have the choice of preserving the numbers (good for 100K blacks), or preserving the appearance of the color (good for photographs). Which you choose is really dependent on your content and the expected outcome. My own personal habit is to embed profiles, and preserve them on import, for files from Photoshop, but most times I don't embed profiles in Illustrator (which forces ID to use the current working space and leave the numbers intact). My rationale is that photographs are both continuous tone and lack single-component blacks (RGB Black doesn't convert to 0,0,0,100), and that they are usually images of things that we recognize and would think odd if the color was wrong. Illustrations, on the other hand, are generally "artificial," and are built in CMYK if that's the intended use, so minor color shifts are less of an issue compared with problems associated with rich black conversions.

           

          I'm not sure what you are sending to the printer. In my opinion it should be a PDF exported from ID, not native files. If that's the case, it makes sense to enable color management and to allow ID to do its job. When you export you should be selecting one of the Convert to Destination options (choosing the printer's supplied profile as the destination). When you convert to destination your native cmyk objects, imported cmyk objects with embedded profiles) and other imported CMYK objects will be treated in one of two ways. When Preserve Numbers is selected, native objects and those presumed to be in the working space will be retagged with the destination profile, but will not have their numbers changed and objects that have embedded profiles will be converted to the destination profile, changing the numbers to preserve the appearance as best possible. When Preserve Numbers is not selected, all objects will be converted. If the working space is the same as the destination, the outcome is the same as above. The export dialog is also the place to deselect embed ICC profiles. The presumption is that you have converted to the correct destination already, so your numbers are as correct as they are going to be, so you don't need the profile for further processing.

           

          Did that help?

          • 2. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            When selecting an Illustrator generated image within InDesign, the "Object / Image Color Settings" option remains unselectable in the menu.

            Any idea what the deal is?

             

            Illustrator/PDFs can have multiple embedded profiles (they're not necessarily images) so you don't have the option to override an embedded profile as you can with an image. If the file does not include a profile its preview is color managed via the ID document's assigned profile.

             

            However, when opening the InDessign file, a warning appears stating "Profile or Policy Mismatch", then asks to select either; "Leave document as is" or "Adjust document to match current color settings" - Policy: OFF.

             

            Color management policies are saved with the document when it is created, so when the document you are placing the AI file into was created the Policies were not set to Off and the warning is giving you the option to reset  the policies.

             

            From what we understand, the Printing Press company does not want any color profiles associated with the InDesign document.

            How do we fix this? (when generating a PDF that same warning appears

             

            Use the PDF/X-1a preset. It forces everything into one CMYK space and doesn't include profiles with the PDF. In that case you can assign the SWOP profile to all your images and documents for consistently managing color appearance, but the profile won't be included on export.

            • 3. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
              S4554 Level 1

              Hi Peter, thanks for your info,

               

              I think I should clarify something, first.

               

              The monitor calibrating device we use, SpyderPro, simply creates a new ICC Profile from the sRGB ICC Color Space supplied by Windows. It then loads that new ICC Color Profile into the graphics card so that the colors you see on the monitor are now correct.

               

              1. The question is... While working in Photoshop, should we load that new ICC Profile, or the original sRGB ICC Profile, into the (Edit / Color Settings / RGB working space) option? If we flip between sRGB and the new "calibrated" sRGB ICC Profile, the colors do shift.

               

              2. We are using Illustrator to mask each image so that a square image becomes round before inserting them into the InDesign(book) file. For some reason, the printer prefers a trimmed transparent round image rather then a square image with a white mask to create a round image. I don't know why that is. I have to see if InDesign can mask the images, rather then have Illustrator do it as I understand that Illustrator really is not intended to edit photos. That may be part of the problem.

               

              3. The other big issue is... What do we set the working CMYK color space too when color correcting photos in Photoshop? These images are going to an offset CMYK Print Press (printing a book) and must be converted from RGB to CMYK with a press-supplied ICC Profile. But at the same time, the press is instructing us to NOT embed that ICC Profile upon exporting the image.

               

              4. What do we set the (edit / color settings / color management (RGB, CMYK, Grey) setting to, prior to exporting an image to be used in InDesign? That's where all the confusion is; we aren't sure how to make sure that what we see on our calibrated monitor is what the printer will see when they open the files on their monitor.

               

              Thanks Again

              Sean

               

              ps, Here's a link to the Press Specs/Guidlenies

              http://www.cartamundi.com/en/page/technical-specifications-0

              Listed under Technical Specification

              • 4. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                Pretty strange set of guidleines for an InDesign workflow, but perhaps it's really geared toward Quark users.

                 

                In any case, the admonition not to embed the profile in your converted CMYK images is pure foolishness. It won't matter if the CMYK working space in your ID file is set to their profile (did you download it and install as directed?), but if it isn't you'll have all kinds of problems with color shifting.

                 

                My inclination here would be to make a custom color settings file in Photoshop using sRGB (or the slightly larger Adobe RGB, but if you're comfortable using sRGB, go right ahead) and the specified ISOcoatedv2-300-eci profile. You can then load that into both Photshop and InDesign to set your working spaces before starting to make the ID files or do your conversions in Photoshop. You should NOT use the monitor profile for a working space, as I mentioned previoulsy. If you want super-accurate grayscales, too, make sure you have the advanced settings turned on inthe Photoshop Color Settings dialog, and choose Load Gray from the grayscale dropdown, then load the black ink channel from the CMYK profile (that's where grayscale ends up in ID).

                 

                If you want round masking, why not use round frames in ID instead of rectangular? Or apply a round layer mask in Photoshop. Either will work, but since you say they don't want masking the round frame is faster and will do what they want. The PDF export settings they want you to use have Crop Image Data to Frames enabled. The result should be the same as what you are doing in Illustrator without the extra steps.

                 

                Their PDF settings file also has no color conversion selected and no profiles embedded. That's fine if you do your conversions in Photoshop and set the working space to their profile, but it isn't necessarily the best way to work. I do conversions in Photoshop for high-end color when I want to tweak the image after conversion, but if all you do is change the mode or convert to profile, you can get the same results in ID by placing the RGB files and doing the conversion to the destination space during export. This is more flexible in that you don't need to know the output conditions until it's time to export, and the same ID file can be exported to a variety of CMYK profiles for use on differnt presses and give you closer color matching than you would get doing CMYK to CMYK conversions. All CMYK profiles are device dependent, and the gamuts are smaller than most RGB spaces, so you lose some colors during the conversion. once lost, those colors don't come back if you then convert that CMYK to a larger gamut CMYK space. For example, SWOP is a smaller space than the sheetfed profiles, so you wouldn't want to give up colors unnecessarily by converting from RGB to SWOP and then to the ISO coated.

                 

                The bottom line on the PDF you send is that all colors need to be converted to their profile, either before you place them in ID, or during export (your choice) and the PDF should not have profiles embedded.

                • 5. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  1. The question is... While working in Photoshop, should we load that new ICC Profile, or the original sRGB ICC Profile, into the (Edit / Color Settings / RGB working space) option?

                   

                  Neither, larger RGB spaces like AdobeRGB or ProPhotoRGB are better for editing RGB than monitor or sRGB. Your monitor profile is used for correctly displaying an RGB or CMYK image but there's no reason to edit in the monitor space.

                   

                   

                  What do we set the working CMYK color space too when color correcting photos in Photoshop?

                   

                  Your printer is providing a CMYK profile, ISOcoated_v2_300_eci, so you would use that profile in all 3 applications. There's no reason not to embed it, but if you don't, keep in mind that document's with no profile assigned are color managed by the application's current Working Space set in Color Settings, which isn't necessarily always going to ISOcoated, so you could end up with shifting previews.

                   

                  You can embed profiles for your workflow and then export to PDF/X-1a and deliver a PDF without profiles.

                  • 6. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    In any case, the admonition not to embed the profile in your converted CMYK images is pure foolishness. It won't matter if the CMYK working space in your ID file is set to their profile (did you download it and install as directed?), but if it isn't you'll have all kinds of problems with color shifting.

                     

                    I think it's common for printer's to ask for CMYK PDFs without profiles. They want to print the client's CMYK values unchanged—if there's an argument about color they can point to the press sheet and say they printed the values provided. PDF/X-1a is better, because it includes an output intent without a profile.

                    • 7. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Rob,

                       

                      The admonition I was calling foolish was to not embed the profile in the converted image when saving in Photoshop, not asking to have no profiles in the PDF, which is fine if the conversion has already been completed. Not having an embedded profile in the Photoshop document means you really cannot color amange your workflow.

                      • 8. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                        Bo LeBeau Level 4

                        It's interesting that in addition to the PDF method of delivery, they also want the native files!

                         

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                         

                        Delivering files to Cartamundi

                        General overview of which files to send to Cartamundi


                        PDF


                        Because our workflow is pdf based, we want you to deliver pdf files.

                        You can send us multi-page pdf files. You don’t have to make a single-page pdf file for

                        each individual card, but be aware to have all pages in the right sequence.

                        Our workflow supports transparancy, so we prefer pdf 1.4 files or higher. Pdf 1.3 files can

                        cause problems when transparancy is used.

                        In our “Creating pdf-files_r2” section we explain how to create pdf-files from each application.


                        Native files


                        Along with the pdf files, we also like you to send all ‘native’ material. This native material includes

                        all used fonts, images, vector drawings and lay-out files. We need this material in case of unex-

                        pected corrections or technical problems with the pdf file.

                        To collect all this native material, you can use the ‘Package...’ tool in Indesign or

                        the ‘Collect for output...’ in QuarkXpress. In this way all used fonts, images and lay-out files

                        are collected in a separate folder.

                        Attention, fonts used in files that are placed in the lay-out application are not exported in

                        this way, don’t forget to include these fonts as well. Even better is to vectorize fonts that

                        are used in placed files. Please check this carefully before sending the material.

                        Even if the text is vectorized, don’t forget to deliver us the used fonts. This in case of

                        unexpected text corrections.

                        • 9. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                          S4554 Level 1

                          Are you sure we should NOT use the calibrated RGB Profile in Photoshop's RGB working space profile?

                          If we set Photoshop's working RGB profile to sRGB (uncalibrated), open an image within Photoshop, then open that same image outside Photoshop ( in Windows) both images appear differently when viewed side-by-side. That's why we run Photoshop's working space RGB Color Settings as "Custom" or "Current color-calibrated Monitor".

                           

                          As for inserting the images directly into InDesign, we can't because we have do do individual color corrections prior to, and after, RGB to CMYK color conversion.

                          We'll skip the Illustrator masking deal, though, and reset the frames in InDesign to round. How do we do that in CS2 - is it possible?

                           

                          And we're supposed to load their supplied CMYK ICC profile "...v2 300.." into Photoshop's, InDesign, Illustrator's working CMYK color space, correct?

                          • 10. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Yes, we're sure about the RGB space. Windows itself is not color managed, nor are most other applications so all bets are off. Photoshop is showing you what the colors are SUPPOSED to look like.

                             

                            Yes load the CMYK profile in all the apps. You should be using consistent settings in all of them.

                             

                            The ellipse frame tool is under the rectangular frame tool (click the little triangle in the corner). You can convert exisitng frames to ellipses from the Object menu.

                            • 11. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              The admonition I was calling foolish was to not embed the profile in the converted image when saving in Photoshop, not asking to have no profiles in the PDF

                              OK.

                               

                              Looking at the spec page I'm not seeing any mention of Color Settings.

                              • 12. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                And we're supposed to load their supplied CMYK ICC profile "...v2 300.." into Photoshop's, InDesign, Illustrator's working CMYK color space, correct?

                                You could save a Color Settings file and sync all your apps. Something like this:

                                 

                                Screen shot 2012-01-30 at 6.59.25 PM.png

                                 

                                It really is OK to include the profile. If you have sync'd all the apps to the same CMYK working space the output results will be the same whether you embed or not.

                                • 13. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  rob day wrote:

                                   

                                  The admonition I was calling foolish was to not embed the profile in the converted image when saving in Photoshop, not asking to have no profiles in the PDF

                                  OK.

                                   

                                  Looking at the spec page I'm not seeing any mention of Color Settings.

                                  No, I didn't see one either, just a lot of other stuff.

                                   

                                  You are, of course, correct that if the working space is set to the same profile it isn't necessary to embed the profile, but I still feel it is foolish not to. Failure to embed means you must either alweays use that profile as your working space or remember what the profile was so you can assign it later if you place the image in anothe file that uses some other space, or accept color shifts that might not be necessary. There is no harm, to my way of thinking, in embedding the profile, and a lot of potential good.

                                  • 14. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                    S4554 Level 1

                                    Thanks Everyone, we're getting it figured out.

                                     

                                    Just found yet another setting under dropdown menu view, what should we set that one to when editing RGB images prior to CMYK conversion?Photshop View Image 1.jpg

                                    • 15. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      If your Proof Setup is set to Working CMYK and you turn on Proof Colors, you'll get a preview of what an RGB image will look like when it's converted to the current CMYK Working Space. RGB colors outside of the CMYK space's gamut will be brought into the Working CMYK gamut without actually making the conversion.

                                      • 16. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                        rob day wrote:

                                         

                                        RGB colors outside of the CMYK space's gamut will be brought into the Working CMYK gamut without actually making the conversion.

                                        I'm not sure what you mean here, Rob. My understanding has always been that when viewing a soft proof out-of-gamut colors are displayed as they would be converted to the nearest in-gamut color according the rendering intent, and that if you want to know which colors those are you can turn on the out-of-gamut highlight.

                                         

                                        Seems to me, also, that with a rendering intent of Relative Colorimetric or Perceptual, having out-of-gamut colors can also affect the conversion of in-gamut colors as minor adjustments are made to retain color relationships durin ghe conversion, so it can be a good idea to make adjustments to the image to eliminate or reduce out-of-gamut problems prior to conversion.

                                        • 17. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          CMYK spaces can be different sizes and that's reflected in the Proof preview. US Web Coated is larger than US Sheetfed Uncoated. The rendering intent is the strategy used to fit the out-of-gamut colors into the smaller container, so the chosen profile, rendering intent, and black point compensation choices all are in play.

                                           

                                          Even with the same rendering intent and black point setting you can get different previews with different CMYK profiles. The narrower US Sheetfed gamut shows in the proof preview of this out-of-gamut AdobeRGB image:

                                           

                                          Screen shot 2012-01-31 at 8.52.40 AM.png

                                           

                                          Screen shot 2012-01-31 at 8.58.44 AM.png

                                          • 18. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                            I understand that. And I think you and I have the same understanding of the way Proof Preview works. When I read your other post the first time I thought you meant that the out-of-gamut RGB colors would not be converted, when in fact what you probably realy meant was you get to see what the conversion will look like for all colors, without actually doing the conversion.

                                            • 19. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                              S4554 Level 1

                                              Seems like the whole "off-set press,graphics, PC, Mac" industry needs to standarize its color management options straight across the board.

                                               

                                              In other words:

                                              Create two unique profiles; sRGB and sCMYK, to be used by everyone in the trade... every app designer, every print press, every desk top printer, everyone worldwide. AND, include an, "if you have profiled 'calibrated' your monitor, do this" option in every apps dropdown menu.

                                               

                                              That way, everything is simple and consistant.

                                               

                                              Would you agree?

                                              • 20. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                It would be simple, but that's not what color management is really about. There are some standards, like sRGB, Adobe RGB ProPhoto RGB (see a pattern there?) and SWOP or GRAcol for CMYK, but these are what I would call "hypothetical" color spaces -- standard ways of describing colors for "average" or "ideal" conditions that don't really exist in the real world where you find printing presses  with different ink sets and paperstocks and monitors that use different technologies and have different degrees of age degradation. Standards are a way of describing a target, and many output devices can be adjusted to match those targets (though it's a rare monitor that can display all the possible colors in Adobe RGB, let alone Pro Photo). The point of having customized profile is that they describe one very specific set of conditions, a particular press or type of press, using a particular manufacturer's inks, on a particular paper stock. Some paper has UV brighteners, some is grayish, some more yellow, some is coated and some not, and the color and absorbtion of the paper affects the appearance of the printing. You can see this easily on your desktop printer by printing the same file with gloss coated photo paper and uncoated cheap copy paper.

                                                 

                                                If you'd like to learn more about color management, without needing a degree in physics or computer science, I highly recommend the book Real World Color Management.

                                                • 21. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Go back to Photoshop 3 and you'll find that there was only one RGB and CMYK space—it was almost impossible to get a decent color separation or soft proof.

                                                  • 22. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                    S4554 Level 1

                                                    That's exactly right, they are "hypothetical" color spaces.

                                                     

                                                    That's why I say the industry should standardize everything across the board.

                                                    Windows/Mac OS, along with every marketed app, would only use the included "standardized" sRGB and sCMYK color profiles for web/computer use. Then, your chosen off-set printer would supply you with their own "individually modified from the default sCMYK" profile based on which press/ink/paper combo you wish to use. You would then load that profile into Photoshop, color correct everything and export the image without attached profiles, tags or anything... just the image.

                                                     

                                                    Seems that would makes things way more streamlined.

                                                    That's what I'm saying.

                                                     

                                                    Anyhow... we got it straightened out, regardless.

                                                    • 23. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                      I think you misunderstood. sRGb is a hypothetical space designed to mimic colors that can be produced an the average monitor. High end monitors can produce many more, and it's possible to capture even more than that. By using a small space you give up some colors that might be printable on some presses, just because you want to guarantee that aal colors in your RGB image will be properly represented on screen. You custom monitor profile is a measurement of how a set of color numbers is actually displaying, compared to the numbers that were input, so that Photoshop or ID can "translate" the input numbers into new output numbers that will mimic the appearance, on YOUR monitor, that one would expect on a "perfect" monitor.

                                                       

                                                      The CMYK spaces like SWOP and the ISO profile provided by your printer are also standards designed to represent conditions on various presses and are meant to produce colors that can be easily achieved on presses of that type. SWOP is for printing on some hypothetical coated stock on a web (roll fed) press using SWOP standard inks. Because thes presses run at very high speed and the paper is not necessarliy of the highest quality, the maximum amount of ink that can be applied is limited and the more saturated colors may not reproduce well. This would be typical of large circulation magazines in the US, for example. You could send colors using this profile to the press your printer uses, but you give up a lot. The ISO standard allows for more ink and brighter colors, and your printer will calibrate his press to produce those colors. Even better would be if he produced a custom profile for his inkset on each paper stock he uses to maximize the color fidelity of all his output, but it easier and less expensive to "dumb down" the output a bit to hit that hypothetical standard.

                                                      • 24. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        That's exactly right, they are "hypothetical" color spaces.

                                                         

                                                        CMYK profiles are not hypothetical they are made by measuring large numbers of color patches from a press sheet.

                                                         

                                                        http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=754

                                                        • 25. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                          S4554 Level 1

                                                          What ever happended to Pantone's H-Chrome? Why did the industry not adopt it as a new standard?

                                                           

                                                          Pantone H-Chrome.jpg

                                                          • 26. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                            For one thing, it requires a six-color press, and it's a LOT more expensive to make six plates thatn it is to make 4.

                                                            • 27. Re: InDesign CS2 and Color ICC Profiles
                                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              Why did the industry not adopt it as a new standard?

                                                              It's too difficult and expensive and relatively few images actually benefit from the extra gamut. I don't think Pantone even sells the Photoshop plugin anymore—a quick search shows the last version of the hexware plugin was for PS 6