15 Replies Latest reply on Feb 1, 2012 6:36 AM by rbairi

    Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.

    rbairi

      Namaste InDesign gurus,

            I have a problem at hand. Wondering if anyone has encoutered similar problem before? Any help is greatly appreciated. And if you're in San Francisco bay area - I can buy you a lunch :-)

       

      Short description: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF. All the ligatures are assembled and displayed in the PDF.

       

      Adobe Indesign Version: InDesign CS5 Design Premium - regular U.S. version (not ME).

       

      Steps I took:

                I purchased CS5 Design Premium and also purchased the IndicPlus plugin to author sanskrit documents in InDesign. I create Sanskrit text using either of the following methods.

      1) Itranslator

      2) Paste the devanagari from the Itranslator directly into InDesign or paste it first into MSWord and then copy from MSWord and paste it to Indesign.

       

      It doesn't matter how I paste it. After I apply the IndicPlus character/paragraph style so that the sanskrit looks good in InDesign, when I try to export it to a PDF. The PDF does not display the ligatures currectly. It just lists all the characters in order without assembling.

       

      I've spent a lot of money buying CS5, IndicPlus and then I can't even create a simple PDF document from InDesign. It is very frustrating.

       

      Has anyone been able to successfully export a sanscrit document from InDesign PDF ?

       

      (Please let me know if my problem description needs more fleshing out).

       

      I could create the PDF from MSWord directly but I'm trying to use indesign to layout my book. If InDesign cannot export to PDF I'll just have to use MSWord for my book layout. I've spend probably scores of hours trying to learn InDeisn and formatting my book content - seems like it is all going to be waste.

      Is MSWord the best choice or only choice for laying out books that have sanskrit text in them?

       

       

      -Ravi

        • 1. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
          Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Has anyone been able to successfully export a sanscrit document from InDesign PDF ?

           

          Not Sanskrit, no, but plenty of Hindi, Nepali, Marathi, and other languages written in Devanagari script - so it should be possible. I don't even use IndicPlus, which by most accounts makes working with Indic text much easier.

           

          1) Itranslator

           

          I've never seen this, but a quick Google led me to the homepage of ITranslator for Windows, where I saw this:

           



          Itranslator 99
          (Build 1.3.0.86)  & New Beta Version
          uses 8-bit true type fonts and is compatible
          with Windows 95/98/ME/NT/2000/XP.
          For more information, click
          here.
           
           
          Itranslator 2003
          (Build 2.0.0.38) & New Beta Version
          uses 16-bit Unicode-compatible fonts and is working
          only on Windows 2000 / XP / Server 2003.
          For more information, click
          here.

           

           

          So, if you're using ITranslator 99, there's the problem - those "8-bit true type fonts" won't work in InDesign. Can you post a sample of the text you're trying to paste into InDesign? Name the font(s) you are using, both in Word and in Indesign, and if possible make a small sample of the text available for us to test. It's also possible that InDesign is using a substituted font, which could cause this problem. So, if the font name in InDesign has brackets around it, you know that InDesign doesn't actually have that font installed and is auto-substituting. Also, if you go to View -> Screen Mode -> Normal and the text is highlighted pink, you know that the font has dropped. (Unless the highlighting for dropped fonts was turned off - check in Edit -> Preferences -> Composition and make sure that "Substituted Fonts" is checked.

           

          Also, for what it's worth, is there any way you could Place your text instead of copying and pasting? This may be cause of your problem - but even though it probably isn't, it's still worth a try.

           

          Lastly - no, I've found InDesign to be superior for typesetting for almost all languages, but the learning curve is pretty steep, and many of the problems faced by people working in non-English languages are not easy to research when you have a problem.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
            rbairi Level 1

            Thank you Joel for replying. Yes, you found the right software. I used the ITranslator 2003 which uses Sanskrit 2003.

            I can create devanagari text in MSWord 2010 using Sanskrit 2003 without any problem. I copy/paste that text into InDesign (CS5) and after applying the IndicPlus Paragraph Style, the text looks just fine even in InDesign. It's only the export that doesn't work.

             

            I'm not to paste documents here but I've uploaded the InDesign document, the MSWord document, and the exported PDF document to google docs:

            InDesign(CS5) doc:

             

            https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzSyzYjAe7rFNzIxNmYzZWQtZDg2Yi00MDgzLTkwMjktZjFlMzE2NDE2N mJk

             

             

            MSWord(2010) doc:

             

            https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzSyzYjAe7rFYzNhZDU3OWMtYTc3NC00NGU5LTg2OGUtMDNjODEwYzc0O DUy

             

             

            Exported PDF doc from InDesign:

             

            https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzSyzYjAe7rFZWFlOTkwMWYtMTk5Ni00YjY1LWE0ZDEtOWQ5MGFmYjY1M WM2

             

             

            I've tried "Place"-ing the document instead of pasting text from Word, but it too resulted in the same problem. I placed the text from a small word document I created and the text doesn't look right until I apply the "IndicPlus paragraph style". After I apply the paragraph style it looks good in InDesign. I export the document to PDF and it is no different from the one I uploaded at the above link.

             

            Any help is greatly appreciated.

             

            -Ravi

            • 3. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
              rbairi Level 1

              One strange thing I just noticed is that when I export the same document for "PDF Interactive", the resulting PDF document seems to display all the sanskrit/hindi characters correctly.

               

              I also tried exporting the document to ".rtf" format and that works too.

               

               

              It is only the export to "PDF

              Print" that gives the problem that I originally posted. At this point,

              it seems like it might be a bug in InDesign. (?)

               

              -Ravi

              • 4. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                What I can tell from a quick examination is this: I don't have IndicPlus, and I think it's a question for them, honestly. When I open up your InDesign file, it looks like your PDF. E.g. the first syallable of the first word, which looks to me like va + vowel i, it's broken in the PDF, but composes correctly in the Word file. I don't have IndicPlus, so it's broken when I open up your InDesign file. Then, I turn on the World-Ready Composer with World Tools, and that vowel sign leaps in front of the va glyph. I don't know if IndicPlus has its own paragraph composer, or if it uses the World Ready paragraph composer, but my gut feeling is that something is wrong with IndicPlus + Sanskrit 2003.

                 

                There's a chance that it might be something wrong with the Sanskrit 2003 font, as well. I've noticed that many of the fonts produced by the Sanskrit-typesetting community are poorly made, so when you have a stacked glyph that must use advanced OpenType methods to compose correctly, some free fonts fail in some circumstances. I assume you are working in Windows; have you tried making a PDF with your text set in a font like Mangal? I"m not suggesting that you typeset your book in Mangal (ugh!) but just to test it, to find out if the problem is in IndicPlus or in the Sanskrit 2003 font. (However, when I made a PDF in CS4 using Sanskrit 2003, it worked perfectly.)

                 

                Lastly: Are you sure that your fonts are being embedded in your PDF? You can check in Acrobat 10 by just hitting control + D when the PDF is open, and clicking on the "fonts" tab to see if Sanskrit 2003 is being successfully embedded.

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                  Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                  It is only the export to "PDF

                  Print" that gives the problem that I originally posted. At this point,

                  it seems like it might be a bug in InDesign. (?)

                   

                  Hm... I'm not sure, since I can export a PDF that works successfully using Sanskrit 2003 font and the INDD you provided. I will upload an INDD with the World-Ready Composer turned on w/World Tools for you to test on your side.

                  • 6. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                    Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    I exported this Print PDF from CS5 using Sanskrit 2003 font:

                     

                    YouSendIt link to PDF

                     

                    If it's a bug, it's in IndicPlus, which I don't have. Interestingly, when I check which paragraph composer is on, it's neither the normal paragraph composer nor the world-ready composer. It is, I'm guessing, a special third-party paragraph composer written by the folks at MetaDesign. They had Devanagari support before the World-Ready Composer was written, and I'm guessing that this is how they did it.  It may be a problem specific to that composer and that font.

                    • 7. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                      rbairi Level 1

                      Thank you Joel for looking into this.

                      Yes, IndicPlus has it's own paragraph composer (MetaDesign is the creator of IndicPlus). Sanskrit 2003 is a well tested font as far as I know but I could be wrong. I'll try the Mangal font you suggested and will get back to you. I am using Windows XP.

                      I don't have Acrobat 10, but will install it tonight and check if the font is embedded.

                      I don't know much about the paragraph composers but I'll lookup the World Ready Composer tonight.

                       

                      If you know off the top of your head the answer to the following questions - that'll be great.

                       

                      Is World Ready Composer something that I have to buy for CS5 or is it available for free?

                       

                      I have already composed a long document spending several hours. Will I be able to apply the World Ready Composer to an existing document? 

                       

                      Thank you again for all your help.

                       

                       

                      -Ravi

                      • 8. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                        Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I don't have Acrobat 10, but will install it tonight and check if the font is embedded.

                         

                        Yeah, it's the same technique for Acrobat 4 through 10, so if you have any Acrobat at all you can check.

                         

                        Some top-of-the-head answers:

                         

                        Is World Ready Composer something that I have to buy for CS5 or is it available for free?

                        It's free, but hidden (and therefore not actively supported by Adobe). When you search Google you will find some pages that have free scripts that will turn it on and off for free - I bought World Tools because of its extra right-to-left tools for Arabic, which you probably don't need.

                         

                        I have already composed a long document spending several hours. Will I be able to apply the World Ready Composer to an existing document?

                        Maybe... easy if you know how to write Javascript and already have been using paragraph styles on all of your Sanskrit text, harder (but still do-able) if you don't know any Javascript and haven't been using paragraph styles as you set up your book. I think that there is already a freely available script to change all paragraphs in a document to the WRC - if not I'll write it, it should be only a ninety-second task for an expert so it couldn't possibly take me any longer than twenty minutes

                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                          rbairi Level 1

                          Thank you Joel.

                          When I do the Ctrl +D it shows the following:

                              Fonts used in this document:

                                  - Sanskrit 2003 (Embedded subset)

                                      Type: True Type (CID)

                                      Encoding: Identity - H

                           

                          So, I'm guessing it is embedded after all.

                           

                          I'm contemplating buying the WorldTools now. Have not decided yet.

                           

                           

                          Found some scripts at the following link. Will try to see if I can put them to use tonight.

                           

                              http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/01/adobe-world-ready-composer

                           

                          I don't know much about the Paragraph composer and how to use scripting with Indesign paragraph styles. I could possibly learn how to use JavaScript with Indesign but it might take way too much time for me.

                           

                          Thank you again for helping me out -it's been real helpful. I'll send you a message soon.

                           

                          -Ravi

                          • 10. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                            rbairi Level 1

                            Hi Joel,

                                Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Indeed, it seems like a problem with the IndicPlus paragraph style/composer. Here are the steps I took.

                             

                            1) I was able to get an InDesign template that had the World Ready Composer enabled (at the same link I listed above - Thomas Phinney's site).

                             

                            2) Opened the above template and pasted a couple of lines of text. Then, applied the World Ready Composer "Paragraph style" to the first line and World Ready Composer "Character style" to the second line.

                             

                            3) Copied those two lines and pasted into my document (in a new text box).  This enabled the World Ready Composer and created 2 Styles in my document. They are:

                                      a) World Ready Composer Paragraph style

                                      b) World Ready Composer Character style.

                             

                            4) I created a new style using the the World Ready Composer paragraph style on a line of text I typed.

                             

                            5) Did a find/change: searched for all the occurances of the old styles and replaced with the new  paragraph style I created in step #4 above.

                             

                            This seems to fix my problem!

                             

                            I owe you a lunch! Thank you again!

                             

                             

                            On another note. My javascript capabilities are pretty non-existent. "alert('Hello World');" is what remains Javascript skill set. But after I finish my book, I'd love to work on learning the Javascript for Indesign. My dream would be to create a simple plugin that can convert some sample text typed in english into devanagari.

                             

                            Do you an idea how of an effort would it be to create a button that can convert a selected english text, say "raama" to it's equivalent in Devanagari?

                             

                            -Ravi

                            • 11. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                              Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                              Do you an idea how of an effort would it be to create a button that can convert a selected english text, say "raama" to it's equivalent in Devanagari?

                               

                              It's funny, but why yes, I do have a very good idea of how hard it is to implement such a converter. It's pretty much the only thing I can do in InDesign's subset of Javascript, and it's why I bothered to learn to script for ID at all. And, the answer for most languages is: medium-hard, if you aren't already a script developer. Fortunately this kind of thing is done quite often and there are plenty of code samples and similar scripts that can be re-tooled. The real challenge isn't in the writing of the code, mind you, but in the actual conversion itself. Do you use a Latin-script orthography that will really have a one-to-one mapping of a group of letters to a particular Devanagari glyph. For instance, I was playing with the Google Input Method and the often-useful Google Transliterate which does exactly what you describe - type "raama," whack space, get रामा. In order for that to happen, you can imagine the algorithm because you already know what is involved in the selection process... how does it know that "raa" should be रा and not राअ? "Ra" generates रा by itself, right?  Because there is no one-to-one relationship of letter or letter pair or letter triad to Devanagari glyph, you have to do a lot of looking ahead and looking behind and contextual judgment calls in your script. This isn't about knowing Javascript in particular... it's more about knowing how to figure out algorithms that can be implemented in Javascript, that do things programmatically to texts that do not behave in programmatic ways.

                               

                              (In the languages I handle most often - Khmer and Burmese are the best example - writing transliterators and input methods and the like are insanely challenging tasks. But these are also the best word games imaginable; it's much better & more satisfying to bash one's head against writing transliterators or input methods for complex Asian scripts than it is to, I dunno, be addicted to crossword puzzles or whatever. On the other hand, I get paid to make input methods for Khmer, but not for crossword puzzles )

                              • 12. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                                rbairi Level 1

                                Yes, it can be challenging to come up with a parsing algorithm that contains lot of backtracking and forward looking. It also seems fun. I would start with solving a small problem and then build on it. But, my biggest weakness is technology - 

                                 

                                1) InDesign objects, methods etc that I need to figure out to add a new button by clicking which my algorithm/function  will be called passing the selected text.

                                2) Then it should take the returned text from my function (assuming this would be a unicode sequence of hex code points) and place it in the place of the selected text

                                3) Set the fond and apply the world-ready-composer paragraph style on it so that the unicode sequence is displayed in Devanagari/Sanskrit 2003 with proper grouping.

                                 

                                Is that how it is done? That is how MSWord plugin seems to work. MSWord's object model is not very well documented so I ran into problems. They can be overcome if I spend some time on it but I got busy with my work, my book and studying sanskrit on the side - had and still have way too much on my hands.Hope to get on the plugin project in 2 to 3 months.

                                 

                                 

                                In the worst case, if I'm unable to come up with an algorithm - there must be algorithms/code available on the internet to do the transliteration from English (ITrans) to Devanagari. I just have to port it to JavaScript (though it may not be satisfying as writing your own algorithm).

                                 

                                I don't know the JavaScript syntax that much but can learn it quickly. Knowing the InDesign api is hard.

                                 

                                I know some Perl and use it at work. I took an online course in JavaScript but I forgot everything because I never used it. Don't mind learning it again - this time I might actually use it.

                                 

                                -Ravi

                                • 13. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                                  rbairi Level 1

                                  Was browsing the internet and it seems like I don't have to create a "plugin" for what I want to do. I could just write a script to do that.

                                  I'll look into the InDesign object model.

                                   

                                  -Ravi

                                  • 14. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                                    Suresh Veeraiyan

                                    Hi Ravi,

                                     

                                    If you don't mind, send the indesign package. I will solve this issue.

                                     

                                    Regards,

                                    Suresh V

                                    • 15. Re: Devanagari font in layed out in Indesign (using IndicPlus) does not export correctly to a PDF.
                                      rbairi Level 1

                                      Thank you Suresh. I'm able to compose devanagari/sanskrit text in InDesign right now. So the problem is pretty much solved.

                                      -ravi