39 Replies Latest reply on Feb 3, 2012 9:59 AM by Noel Carboni

    Color mismatch

    shtarkel

      My photoshop is mismatcing colors:

       

      1. Image seen in ACDSee, Firefox....

      Screenshot_ 31-Jan_01.jpg

      2. Image opened in Photoshop with sRGB color space

      Screenshot_ 31-Jan_02.jpg

      3. Image in Photoshop with proof colors ON (Monitor RGB)

      Screenshot_ 31-Jan_03.jpg

        • 1. Re: Color mismatch
          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Why is it that people automatically assume Photoshop is wrong?

           

          What is your monitor profile? have you calibrated? using the canned profile? OS default? What monitor (standard or wide gamut)?

           

          Is the document profile (sRGB) embedded?

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Color mismatch
            shtarkel Level 1

            The mointor is Dell U3011 (not calibrated) with ICC profile: "DELL U3011 Color Profile, d65"- OS DEFAULT. Wide gamut, but SET to sRGB mode. The image is wtih sRGB profile embeded.

            • 3. Re: Color mismatch
              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Then the profile is wrong, unless the Dell profile is specifically for the sRGB setting.

               

              There could also be other problems with the profile. Manufacturer profiles are notoriously troublesome.

              • 4. Re: Color mismatch
                shtarkel Level 1

                Which profile? The default OS ICC?

                • 5. Re: Color mismatch
                  D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Sorry, had to rush to a meeting...

                   

                  For Photoshop to display correctly, it needs a monitor profile that accurately describes the monitor. If you calibrate, that's what you get, and if not, you need to find the closest match.

                   

                  With the monitor in sRGB mode, that would be sRGB or the equivalent Dell profile. With the monitor in any of the full gamut modes, that would be Adobe RGB or the Dell equivalent.

                   

                  The monitor profile is set at system level (control panel > color management), and Photoshop will find it there.

                   

                  Normally PS and Firefox should display identically, because they're both fully color managed and will use the monitor profile. Most other apps won't (but I don't know ACDSee). But Firefox is known to have problems with some profiles (it will not recognize v4 profiles at default settings IIRC).

                  • 6. Re: Color mismatch
                    shtarkel Level 1

                    But why only PS does that mismatch?
                    here is the same image in Windows photo viewer which is expected to be mismatched and it is the same as PS

                    Screenshot_ 31-Jan_04.jpg

                    • 7. Re: Color mismatch
                      shtarkel Level 1

                      All color managed applications shoud open the image the same way and it shoud look the same, right? No mater if I use Dell U3011 with calibrated ICC profile or not.

                      • 8. Re: Color mismatch
                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Photoshop and Windows Photo Viewer should agree, they are both color managed and both use the monitor profile to display the image. But most other applications do not, so a difference there is to be expected.

                         

                        The odd man out here is Firefox. I suspect the Dell profile has some properties that Firefox stumbles over.

                         

                        Either way, you need to do some serious troubleshooting instead of just speculating. Try sRGB or Adobe RGB as monitor profile (depending on monitor setting). These generic, standard profiles should show each application at its best behavior and tell you where the problem (if any) is. Then see if the corresponding Dell profiles perform any better.

                         

                        And of course if you calibrate this whole problem goes away.

                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: Color mismatch
                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                          shtarkel wrote:

                           

                          All color managed applications shoud open the image the same way and it shoud look the same, right? No mater if I use Dell U3011 with calibrated ICC profile or not.

                           

                          Should?  Yes.

                           

                          Do?  No.

                           

                          • Color-management must be implemented in each application.  No two applications do it using the same code.
                          • Color-management is evolving.  Therefore not every application of different age supports it in exactly the same way.
                          • Profiles can be complex beasts, and quite often they have errors in them.  How different applications handle errors is not consistent.

                           

                          Knowns:

                           

                          • Internet Explorer only does HALF the job of color-management.  It interprets document profiles, but not monitor profiles.
                          • Firefox is known to have some deficiencies in its color-management implementation, leading to reported failures.
                          • Photoshop has a few glitches of its own (e.g., inability to produce an accurate transform for ProPhoto RGB documents in Normal and Advanced OpenGL modes).

                           

                           

                          See the pattern?

                           

                          -Noel

                          • 10. Re: Color mismatch
                            gator soup Level 4

                            >> Photoshop has a few glitches of its own (e.g., inability to produce an accurate transform for ProPhoto RGB documents

                             

                            What is a transform?

                             

                            I work in ProphotoRGB, are you saying photoshop CS5 is not displaying it correctly?

                             

                            How so?

                             

                            Thanks...

                            • 11. Re: Color mismatch
                              shtarkel Level 1

                              Another One with embeded sRGB profile:

                               

                              1. PS in sRGB working space

                              Screenshot_ 31-Jan_01.jpg

                              2. Same sRGB image imported into Lightroom

                              Screenshot_ 31-Jan_02.jpg

                              3. Same image in LR from RAW

                              Screenshot_ 31-Jan_03.jpg

                              4. sRGB image opened in ACDSee Photo Manager 2009

                              Screenshot_ 31-Jan_04.jpg

                              5. sRGB image opened in ACDSee 5 Pro with color managament ON and U3011.ICM profile

                              Screenshot_ 31-Jan_05.jpg

                              6. sRGB image opened with Windows Photo Viewer

                              Screenshot_ 31-Jan_06.jpg

                              7. same iamge in Firefox 9.01

                              Screenshot_ 31-Jan_07.jpg

                               

                              Now I think everything looks allright?

                              • 12. Re: Color mismatch
                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Looks much better, although ACDSee isn't quite happy with the sky blue. The difference is consistent with the typical difference between sRGB and an sRGB-like monitor profile, so that leads me to believe ACDSee doesn't use the monitor profile.

                                 

                                Strangely, Lightroom is a tiny bit off too (the second). I can't explain that.

                                 

                                Note to everybody: the "inline" images in the forum are untagged, document profile stripped. You need to click to see the fully managed version (in Firefox).

                                • 13. Re: Color mismatch
                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                  gator soup wrote:

                                   


                                  What is a transform?

                                   

                                  I work in ProphotoRGB, are you saying photoshop CS5 is not displaying it correctly?

                                   

                                  How so?

                                   

                                  A transform the derived algorithm, based on the document and device profiles, that converts color values from your document color space to your monitor (device) color space.

                                   

                                  There's an easy test for testing Photoshop's transform accuracy with display of ProPhoto RGB documents:  Create a small RGB document in 16 bits/channel ProPhoto RGB profile, and render a black to medium gray Radial Gradient.  Do you see colored bands in the result on the screen?  If so, you have the aforementioned inaccuracy.  Note that it goes away when either in OpenGL Basic mode or with OpenGL disabled, which is when Photoshop creates its transforms in the CPU rather than the GPU.

                                   

                                  If you'd rather not make your own gradient, you can download and open this document in Photoshop: 

                                  http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/ProPhotoTest.psd

                                   

                                  If you have the problem, the result will look something like this (note the slight cicular colored banding):

                                  ProPhotoProblem.png

                                   

                                  If you don't have the problem, the result will look like this:

                                  ProPhotoNoProblem.png

                                   

                                  It's not clear whether this is something strong enough to affect your decisions while editing ProPhoto RGB documents, but it does represent inaccuracy.  A decent workaround is to use OpenGL Basic mode.

                                   

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 14. Re: Color mismatch
                                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    So that's what it is!

                                     

                                    A cyanish tint in the near black shadows? It was driving me crazy for a while, and I worked without OpenGL for the longest time because of this!

                                    • 15. Re: Color mismatch
                                      Noel Carboni Level 8

                                      Go to OpenGL Basic mode, or edit in another profile, and your woes will be over. 

                                       

                                      Chris acknowledged this quite a while back; I hope they do something to fix it in CS6.

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: Color mismatch
                                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        My god. I thought it was a driver problem (among all the others).

                                         

                                        The last year or so I've been working mostly for offset print, so I've stayed in Adobe RGB for the most part. No wonder it sort of went away and became...less of a problem lately...

                                        • 17. Re: Color mismatch
                                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                                          If memory serves, someone (Lawrence?) verified it was a problem on a nVidia card as well, so that pretty much let the drivers off the hook.

                                           

                                          Just to be sure, I just reverified it's a problem (with Photoshop CS4) on my nVidia Quadro-equipped system here.  It's been around a while.

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: Color mismatch
                                            D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            The moment I saw that gradient I said "well, hel-lo there...haven't we met"?

                                            • 19. Re: Color mismatch
                                              Lundberg02 Level 3


                                               

                                              <Note to everybody: the "inline" images in the forum are untagged, document profile stripped. You need to click to see the fully managed version (in Firefox).>

                                              What is the point of posting comparative images in this forum then?  And what does "clicking Firefox" mean?

                                              • 20. Re: Color mismatch
                                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Well, the comparison is still valid, assuming they were all created in the same color space (and there's no reason to assume they weren't). Although the color may be incorrect, they will all be incorrect the same way.

                                                 

                                                But to see the image fully color managed you need to click it to bring up the full, uncached version. But I have only tested in Firefox. Perhaps it behaves differently in other browsers.

                                                 

                                                Incidentally, the forum profile images are also stripped of their profiles (for those who have any).

                                                • 21. Re: Color mismatch
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                  I'm not sure, but I think the forum software is doing some kind of color-management when converting the images for display in their small versions.  Perhaps they're being converted to sRGB, then put online untagged (a bit odd to go that far then fall short of tagging them)...

                                                   

                                                  Here's the same image using three different profiles, respectively:  sRGB IEC61966-2.1, Adobe RGB 1998, and ProPhoto RGB.  Note that though the RGB values are very different in the saved files, all the small images here look the same.

                                                   

                                                  JustLeaves_sRGB.jpg

                                                   

                                                  JustLeaves_AdobeRGB.jpg

                                                   

                                                  JustLeaves_ProPhotoRGB.jpg

                                                   

                                                  Given this, in addition to what Dag has said above, I'd say posting images for comparison is quite valid.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: Color mismatch
                                                    gator soup Level 4

                                                    Brilliant explanation, I assume this is in the Source>Monitor conversion only (not in the source or print spaces)?

                                                    • 23. Re: Color mismatch
                                                      Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                      Thanks.

                                                       

                                                      From what I can see, the ProPhoto inaccuracy is only an issue with GPU-based color management, which is enabled when in Normal or Advanced OpenGL modes, and that would probably imply it's happening only for displays prepped for the monitor - BUT - I don't know for sure.  I don't know more about Photoshop's implementation than what I've been able to observe and derive based on my knowledge of implementing OpenGL-based graphics software.  You'd have to talk to Adobe (Chris Cox) for a more in-depth description of what's happening under the covers.

                                                       

                                                      I'm quite impressed that Adobe has ported their color-management engine to run on the GPU, especially considering they first did it way back in PS CS4.

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 24. Re: Color mismatch
                                                        Lundberg02 Level 3

                                                        One would think that an Adobe forum would not screw around with posted images so that no one can tell the difference between them most of the time. As Noel said, the three images he posted look exactly the same even though they have different spaces. When you click to expand one of them you get a somewhat larger image on a greyed out forum background. What good is that?

                                                        The OPs original series of images are clearly different but he did not explain what he did to his setup so that the second set look nearly the same except for the sky saturarion. I've always wondered, even before the new forum by Jive, why my calibrated monitor and Safari 4 don't show more difference between images posted that are supposed to noticeably suffer from mismatch. If the Jive software is doing something so dumb as to make image comparisons ridiculous, then this forum is pretty useless.

                                                        • 25. Re: Color mismatch
                                                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                          Well, to be fair if it's converting uploaded images into a color space thats common, that's really not so outrageous, because the images would look more correct than if left alone and displayed by a browser that has no color-management.

                                                           

                                                          That said, most browsers do at least some color-management now.  IE9 has half-baked color-management because it just assumes you have sRGB monitors, but Safari and Firefox make an attempt at full color-mangement.  I don't know about Chrome; I avoid running Google software at all costs.

                                                           

                                                          And lastly, it's a pretty widely agreed-upon fact that this forum software leaves a lot to be desired.  But we ARE communicating with it, so I suppose it's not all bad. 

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          • 26. Re: Color mismatch
                                                            Lundberg02 Level 3

                                                            I'm beginning to agree with Mike Ornellas. Nobody knows anything about

                                                            color management. Except maybe Gernot Hoffman, and no one knows what

                                                            he's talking about.

                                                            • 27. Re: Color mismatch
                                                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                              Lundberg02 wrote:

                                                               


                                                              Nobody knows anything about color management.

                                                               

                                                              I'm not sure whether you meant that as a dig against anyone here, but I don't think I agree with your statement.  Maybe a statement more like "color management implementations are still all over the map" might be a better way to say it.

                                                               

                                                              Just to be clear, the three images I posted really SHOULD look like one another, and they do.

                                                               

                                                              It's a big, complicated digital imaging world, that's a fact.  And let's not forget how precious few years ago 256 colors per pixel made amazing images (as compared to 16 colors per pixel).  Now we have real-time high frame rate animation of blood spatter, complete with multiple light sources, smoke and fog, reflective moving water surfaces, etc.  I just mention video games because frankly they fund the graphics advancements we enjoy.

                                                               

                                                              Don't worry, in time I think all the color-management kinks in all the different software will get worked out, to where everything just works.

                                                               

                                                              -Noel

                                                              • 28. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                Check the forum images with a wide gamut monitor.

                                                                 

                                                                I think I see what happens here: it's converting to sRGB and then stripping the profile (much like you can set up SFW to do).

                                                                 

                                                                The point is that with a wide gamut monitor they all look wildly oversaturated, so there's no question the monitor profile is skipped. In Firefox this only happens when there is no embedded profile. The full version appears with proper management.

                                                                 

                                                                I still insist I'm right, but I missed a step. With a standard gamut monitor the difference is not easily noticeable, but it's there.

                                                                • 29. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                  gator soup Level 4

                                                                  >> I think I see what happens here: it's converting to sRGB and then stripping the profile

                                                                   

                                                                  curious here, the tree pics all appear to be untagged sRGB

                                                                   

                                                                  i'm posting tagged files to test this

                                                                   

                                                                  whackedRGB_Tagged.jpgprophotoRGB_Tagged.jpg

                                                                  • 30. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                    gator soup Level 4

                                                                    >> : it's converting to sRGB and then stripping the profile

                                                                     

                                                                    yes, it appears so

                                                                     

                                                                    sigh...

                                                                    • 31. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                      D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      I didn't notice the sRGB conversion when I tested, because (out of habit) I had done that before posting.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                                        D Fosse wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        I think I see what happens here: it's converting to sRGB and then stripping the profile (much like you can set up SFW to do).

                                                                         

                                                                        Yep.  Just what I meant by:

                                                                         

                                                                        Perhaps they're being converted to sRGB, then put online untagged

                                                                         

                                                                        Now you start to see why I like having monitors that just do sRGB.  More stuff just works out. 

                                                                         

                                                                        -Noel

                                                                        • 33. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                          Hah!  <how about those U3011's BTW?>

                                                                           

                                                                          As Chris Cox once said, it's not color management that is difficult, it's all the applications breaking it that makes it difficult. I think that was pretty well put.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                            shtarkel Level 1

                                                                            Dell U3011 is briliant

                                                                            • 35. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                              Lundberg02 Level 3

                                                                              And expensive. What did you do to your series of tree images make the render correctly except for the slight difference in sky saturation?

                                                                              Noel, I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread.

                                                                              I already said your three images look the same.

                                                                              It just seems weird that a naive poster who wants to know why his images are mismatched and shows them in a message has to have them subjected to some unknown manipulation by software that a big grownup color company uses for its forums.

                                                                              And that this initiates a long thread full of conjecture.

                                                                              When I see images in this forum that are supposed to be very different but aren't, I know it isn't my monitor. It's Safari 4, it's ColorSync bad blue, it's whatever Jive is doing, it's whatever the poster thought he was doing.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                Lundberg02 wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                have them subjected to some unknown manipulation by software that a big grownup color company uses for its forums.

                                                                                I totally agree. The least we could ask, here of all places, is forum software that doesn't break color management. Firefox and Safari will deal with this perfectly fine, and then Jive comes along and breaks it.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                                  Lundberg02 Level 3

                                                                                  I don't know whether anyone at Adobe besides Cox ad Tranberry reads this

                                                                                  stuff, but maybe one of them could find out why this travesty exists.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                                    shtarkel Level 1

                                                                                    Do I have to ckeck this option (Use my settings) in Color Managment:Screenshot_ 03-Feb_01.jpg ot not?

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    When it is OFF Photoshop displays this:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Screenshot_ 03-Feb_02.jpg   Screenshot_ 03-Feb_06.jpg

                                                                                    When it si ON and I select U3011.ICC

                                                                                    Screenshot_ 03-Feb_03.jpg

                                                                                    Photoshop displays this:

                                                                                    Screenshot_ 03-Feb_04.jpg     Screenshot_ 03-Feb_07.jpg

                                                                                    Then when I click on Proof setup- Monitor RGB it gives me this:

                                                                                    Screenshot_ 03-Feb_05.jpg   Screenshot_ 03-Feb_08.jpg

                                                                                    ?

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Color mismatch
                                                                                      Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                                                      shtarkel wrote:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Do I have to ckeck this option (Use my settings) in Color Managment?

                                                                                       

                                                                                      If you want Windows to associate the U3011 color profile with the monitor, the most explicit way to do so is to Add the profile to the list in the Devices tab, set it to be used as the default profile, and check that box, yes.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      -Noel

                                                                                      1 person found this helpful