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    Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications

    eivind80 Community Member

      Hi,

       

      Can anyone tell me why color tends to appear different on screen in different Adobe applications, even if I have synchronised the color settings for CS5 applications?

       

      The following image provides an example, where you can see the same image viewed in InDesign (top left), Bridge (top right), Photoshop (bottom left) and Acrobat (bottom right).

       

      Skjermbilde 2012-01-31 kl. 15.51.05.png

      All the CS5 applications are set to the "Europe General Purpose 3" color setting, and the image has the CMYK profile Coated FOGRA39 (from "Europe General Purpose 3"). The PDF was exported from InDesign with the "Press Quality" preset.

       

      As you can see it appears quite similar in InDesign and Bridge, but really different in Photoshop and Acrobat.

       

      Thanks,

      Eivind

        • 1. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
          D Fosse Community Member

          This makes no sense to me.

           

          What I do know is that Bridge previews are converted to sRGB and FOGRA39 has a larger gamut. So there might be gamut clipping - but nothing on this scale. Export to PDF with press quality will convert to destination (your ID working CMYK) but again that shouldn't matter if the file is FOGRA39 to begin with.

           

          The only thing I can think of is that old culprit, the monitor profile. So what is it and how was it made, or where does it come from?

           

          I think you need to post screenshots of relevant color settings, export settings in ID etc. Perhaps someone will spot something.

          • 2. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
            eivind80 Community Member

            CS5 color settings:

             

            Skjermbilde 2012-02-01 kl. 15.13.25.png

             

            PDF export settings in InDesign:

             

            Skjermbilde 2012-02-01 kl. 14.41.26.png

            • 3. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
              eivind80 Community Member

              Acrobat color settings:

               

              Skjermbilde 2012-02-01 kl. 14.43.45.png

               

              Monitor color profile (in Norwegian as my OS i set to that language, but I'm sure the categories are similarily placed in English language versions):

               

              Skjermbilde 2012-02-01 kl. 14.46.25.png

              • 4. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                D Fosse Community Member

                OK, Dell 2711 is a wide gamut monitor, so that's something. Did you calibrate with ColorSync, or do you have a calibrator? Someone else will have to step in on Mac stuff.

                 

                I see the FOGRA39 profile is consistent throughout. But out of curiosity, could you test with ISO Coated v2 (ECI) or ISO Coated v2 (ECI) 300% ? In a recent thread some peculiarities were discovered with the FOGRA39 profile. But ISO Coated was clean.

                 

                BTW I'm in Norway too, so...hi!

                I bet most people belive we're so few up here that I must know you, but I don't think so...

                • 5. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                  eivind80 Community Member

                  Hi, I thought you might be Norwegian

                   

                  I just recently bought the monitor, and since it comes calibrated from the factory (according to Dell) I'm sticking with factory settings so far. I do have a calibrator however. The monitor profile doesn't seem to be the problem though. When checking on my MacBook Pro screen it's the same problem.

                   

                  Colors seem slightly more consistent after I flattened the PSD file and saved it as a JPEG, even if the color settings are still the same. Note: I have messed with the color of the image since the last screen grab, but it is the same version of the image in all application windows in the screen grab below.

                   

                  Skjermbilde 2012-02-01 kl. 16.44.06.png

                   

                  Annoying that you can't trust a layered PSD to come out right. When working with the layered PSD it also made a huge difference when I changed the InDesign export option from regular "Press Quality" to "Press Quality" with the PDF/X-4 standard activated. Is there any good explanation for this?

                   

                  Skjermbilde 2012-02-01 kl. 16.58.13.png

                   

                  I'll try changing the CMYK profile settings and see how that turns out.

                  • 6. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                    D Fosse Community Member

                    If you have a calibrator I'd try that. IME the monitor profile is always the prime suspect in cases like this. But try the CMYK profile as well.

                     

                    The Dell factory calibration operates on delta E's around 5 (which is no good), so it can only improve things if you do your own. Which calibrator?

                    • 7. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                      eivind80 Community Member

                      Spyder 2 IIRC.

                       

                      I just don't see how the monitor profile would cause an image to look different on the same monitor when all the applications are native Adobe applications. Surely something must differ between the apps or files themselves (even if the settings are seemingly the same).

                       

                      I couldn't find a color setting that included ISO Coated v2 (ECI) 300% profile, so I wasn't able to change the setting for the whole of the Creative Suite, but I converted the CMYK-settings (to ISO Coated v2 (ECI) 300%) for the PSD and ID-file, which means the profile was exported to the PDF as well.

                       

                      Strangely, unlike before, it now seems that PDF is more similar to the ID-file, but more different from the PSD. In fact the PDF looks pretty much like before (with FOGRA39), but the colors have changed quite a bit in the PSD and ID-file.

                       

                      Skjermbilde 2012-02-01 kl. 23.10.14.png

                      • 8. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                        I just don't see how the monitor profile would cause an image to look different on the same monitor when all the applications are native Adobe applications.

                         

                        Monitor profiles can be improperly constructed.  Not only that, but the standards are changing.  Not every application uses the same color-management code - even in Adobe - and so one app may interpret profiles differently than another.

                         

                        I'm sorry to ask the most basic of questions, and I'm doubly sorry if you already covered this in the thread above and I missed it, but are you SURE you're looking at the same data in all cases?  In other words, you haven't saved a file, edited it some more and saved it in another format/place, right?

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                          eivind80 Community Member

                          Thanks for explaining the monitor profile possibility Noel.

                           

                          100 % sure that I haven't messed around with anything in the ID-file, and the PSD/JPEG was just placed directly into it. The PDF-export settings I used you can see above (Press Qual. and Press Qual. with PDF/X-4 standard).

                           

                          Color settings were set in Bridge for the entire CS5-suite in two first screen grabs.

                          • 10. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                            D Fosse Community Member

                            Noel Carboni wrote:


                            Not every application uses the same color-management code - even in Adobe - and so one app may interpret profiles differently than another.

                            The PS and ID teams are in different cities, so....

                            • 11. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                              D Fosse Community Member

                              eivind80 wrote:

                               

                              Spyder 2 IIRC

                              Hmm. The Spyder2 is risky with that monitor, as it's reported to not work well with wide gamut monitors. Might work, but no guarantees.

                               

                              The Spyder3 OTOH is perfectly safe with wide gamut, it was made specifically for it, and by all accounts they also tightened their quality control considerably. And now Spyder4 is out.

                               

                              It might be a good investment anyway, because in cases like this you can rule out the monitor profile quickly. Or even solve the problem.

                              • 12. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                D Fosse Community Member

                                The PDF/X-4 standard is the more "modern" one, in that it doesn't convert at all. This is for leaving the images in their native RGB space, usually preferred now (and the printer converts as the very last step).

                                 

                                The press quality preset goes by the PDF/X-1 standard. This converts everything to a final destination CMYK. But in your case it's all FOGRA39 anyway.

                                 

                                I think I would take this to the InDesign forum as well. There are some people there who are very good with color management issues, like Peter Spier.

                                • 13. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                  Lundberg02 Community Member

                                  In another thread, it was postulated that this forum's Jive software converts everything to sRGB and then strips the profile. This, coupled with the fact that screen shots are png and png has gamma problems,, plus the oddiities of Color Sync in Safari, and whatever it is that Firefox does, probably means that no one can see what the OP sees. When I look at the four images in the OP, I see three images that appear to be the same and the upper right seems a little grey, except the black border of the upper left image might be creating that.

                                  Another example of the forum defeating its own purpose.

                                  Many times in the past there have been loud complaints from posters who say that this or that app or whatever is grossly mangling the color, but when I look at the posted examples I see very minor differences at best, usually gamma, and none at worst. When I say this, some comment that my setup is very f***** up. But it isn't. The forum sw and Safari/ColorSync combine somehow to present everything as sRGB fresh off the ironing board. I don't trust any Safari blue because I know that ColoSync has trouble with it. I trust my comparison of my screen and my inkjet, which is as near to correspondence as I can get it. When I get Firefox 9 or 10 on my new box, I'll revisit this thread and see if I can discern any difference.

                                  • 14. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                    D Fosse Community Member

                                    For a moment there I wondered if this could be an OpenGL problem. But this would affect PS and Bridge, not ID and Acrobat, which AFAIK don't use OpenGL. So that doesn't fit. Nevertheless, try to disable it in PS preferences and see if it makes a difference.

                                     

                                    So, summing up: All your settings seem healthy to me.

                                     

                                    Leaving OpenGL out of it, that points to the profiles, and there are only two of them: FOGRA39, and the monitor profile. There has to be a problem with one of them, or both. Keep in mind that for display, the document profile is converted directly into the monitor profile. So a problem in one could be amplified in the other.

                                     

                                    I don't know why I didn't say this before (probably had my mind elsewhere), but an easy way to test the monitor profile is to replace it with a generic standard profile. With your monitor that would be Adobe RGB. So if everything displays equally with that, you know it's the monitor profile.

                                     

                                    Although I still don't trust the FOGRA profile.

                                    • 15. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                      eivind80 Community Member

                                      I don't expect you guys to see excactly what I see Lundberg, but I can still see a clear difference between the colors in the different application windows in the PNG image, even in Safari after posting it on the forum. I think others here see the difference too.

                                      • 16. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                        eivind80 Community Member

                                        Changing the monitor profile to Adobe RGB did the trick, in terms of all applications (except Bridge – because the preview is in sRGB anyway I suppose) displaying the colors consistently. At least it worked on my Macbook Pro's native display, and I expect the result will be similar on my Dell monitor, but not at the office at the moment.

                                         

                                        Of course using the Adobe RGB profile for the monitor does not work all that well in the long run, because it is not calibrated to this specific monitor. Everything turns out way too blue on my screen.

                                         

                                        But I suppose a good calibration with a proper calibrator should take care of business. Would this also ensure consistency across applications?

                                        • 17. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                          Grant H Community Member

                                          this is more than a simple answer, it can be many things, from how an image with transparency (for eg) is displayed, flattener presets, colours in the image that are out of printing gamut, separations preview... and so on. perfect colour management is/can be very tricky and is more suited to the advanced user...

                                           

                                          what is the image? PSD, layers? etc... is there a way you can upload it?

                                           

                                          G

                                          • 18. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                            D Fosse Community Member

                                            Wonderful! So once again it was the monitor profile. Why can't the monitor manafacturers get this right?

                                            But I suppose a good calibration with a proper calibrator should take care of business. Would this also ensure consistency across applications?

                                            Yes, yes and yes.

                                             

                                            Do some research, and decide on a budget. The overall best alternative is probably the x-rite i1 display at around 2000 NOK. But the Spyder has a lot going for it too, one thing is that the sensor will work with the standalone ColorEyes Display Pro, which is probably the best software. That means you can start with the inexpensive Spyder3express (about 800 NOK) and upgrade later.

                                             

                                            EDIT: Yes, Bridge is restricted to sRGB, as you correctly observe, so it will appear a little muted.

                                            • 19. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                              eivind80 Community Member

                                              I started out with a layered PSD with adjustment layers and the lot, Grant, so I expect some of the problem was related to the flattening process. The problem was not as apparent after I flattened the image in PS and saved it as a JPEG, but it did not completely fix it.

                                               

                                              You can see the PSD before flattening here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4221200/H-class%20destroyers.psd

                                              • 20. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                eivind80 Community Member

                                                Thanks for the advice D Fosse! I will look into it.

                                                • 21. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                  Grant H Community Member

                                                  if the monitor colour is not calibrated correctly it wont cause the colour to display differently in each application. (although you should calibrate at least once a week - i use pantone eye 1)...

                                                   

                                                  To save a colour profile: In photoshop> edit> colour settings. set the working spaces (adobe RGB, etc) and anything else you want, click save and give it a name. Sync to that in Bridge. But if there are colours drasticaly outside printing gamut viwed in PS will look different than in ID (with cmyk working space)

                                                   

                                                  G

                                                  • 22. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                    Grant H Community Member

                                                    oh: and why it looks closer in ADOBE RGB space, thats becase its gamut is much smaller that sRgb

                                                    • 23. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                      D Fosse Community Member

                                                      You probably know this already, but "consistency across applications" obviously means "across color managed applications". Just so we're clear. There are even Adobe applications that aren't color managed, like Fireworks, Dreamweaver and Flash.

                                                       

                                                      Those that aren't there's nothing to do about, except wait for them to catch up.

                                                      • 24. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                        eivind80 Community Member

                                                        Grant H wrote:

                                                         

                                                        if the monitor colour is not calibrated correctly it wont cause the colour to display differently in each application

                                                        Doesn't seem to be a consensus here on that.

                                                         

                                                        I know how to sync profiles in Bridge. The Europe Prepress 3 setting already has RGB set to Adobe RGB btw.

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        Grant H wrote:

                                                         

                                                        But if there are colours drasticaly outside printing gamut viwed in PS will look different than in ID (with cmyk working space)

                                                         

                                                        G

                                                         

                                                        How can there be colours drastically out of gamut in PS when the PSD file is set to the FOGRA39 CMYK profile?

                                                        • 25. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                          eivind80 Community Member

                                                          Grant H wrote:

                                                           

                                                          oh: and why it looks closer in ADOBE RGB space, thats becase its gamut is much smaller that sRgb

                                                          I was sure the Adobe RGB gamut was greater than sRGB ...

                                                           

                                                          My monitor wasn't set to sRGB in the first place anyway, so this answer doesn't make sense. Please read the whole thread.

                                                          • 26. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                            eivind80 Community Member

                                                            D Fosse wrote:

                                                             

                                                            There are even Adobe applications that aren't color managed, like Fireworks, Dreamweaver and Flash.

                                                            Yeah, that's no worry.

                                                             

                                                            I guess there is no real point in color managing content intended for web as things are with all kinds of set ups anyway.

                                                            • 27. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                              Grant H Community Member

                                                              I'm replying via phone/email...

                                                               

                                                              2 min... ill go online

                                                              • 28. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                Grant H Community Member

                                                                ok

                                                                monitor calibration: that is to correctly display colours (as they should look) on your monitor and needs a device to do this properly. This profile is saved and the graphic card will then adjust accordingly. If this profile is too old or has incorrect calibration info then the colour RED will display incorrectly, but if your colour magnagement is synced , as discussed, it will display that RED the same incorrect way in those apps.

                                                                 

                                                                ... client here... will respond to other in mom...

                                                                • 29. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                  D Fosse Community Member

                                                                  Don't worry, Grant. We have it all figured out

                                                                  • 30. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                    eivind80 Community Member

                                                                    Grant H wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    ... but if your colour magnagement is synced , as discussed, it will display that RED the same incorrect way in those apps.

                                                                     

                                                                    That's what I thought too, which is why I was puzzled in the first place.

                                                                     

                                                                    But Noel Carboni said this:

                                                                     

                                                                    Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    Monitor profiles can be improperly constructed.  Not only that, but the standards are changing.  Not every application uses the same color-management code - even in Adobe - and so one app may interpret profiles differently than another.

                                                                    It also seemed to me that setting the monitor profile to Adobe RGB corrected this and thereby confirmed that statement.

                                                                     

                                                                    But I am on my Macbook Pros native display today and haven't had a chance to check the results on my Dell monitor. Actually things look consistent now on my Macbook Pro even when using another profile for the monitor.

                                                                     

                                                                    Maybe the problem could be connected to working on two active displays at the same time. Obviously my comparisons have been between windows open on the same monitor, but still ...

                                                                    • 31. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                      D Fosse Community Member

                                                                      Noel is entirely right. A bad profile can break one app and work well in another.

                                                                       

                                                                      And manufacturer-supplied profiles are notoriously unreliable, all kinds of weird inconsistencies can and do happen all the time. Sometimes I wonder why they bother at all if they can't do it properly.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                        Grant H Community Member

                                                                        like i said: colour is not simple...

                                                                         

                                                                        .. but if your colour magnagement is synced , as discussed, it will display that RED the same incorrect way in those apps.

                                                                        is correct...

                                                                         

                                                                        but i still think you are confusing monitor callibration profile and working spaces profile (RGB)... ..

                                                                         

                                                                        then gamut on Adobe RGB is wider than sRgb... (thats what i meant but explained correctly... sorry) which means that a colour (lets say bright orange) that can displays "right" with ADOBE RGB will shift to closest matc (if u will) on a srgb set up... and even tho size of gamuts differ so does the shape.. if you know what i mean)... choosing Adobe RGB just allows for more colours and thus wont "convert" as many colours thus looks more consistant...

                                                                         

                                                                        i just want you to understand colour and management properly.

                                                                         

                                                                        G

                                                                        • 33. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                          Grant H Community Member

                                                                          Noel is entirely right. A bad profile can break one app and work well in another.

                                                                          I bad monitor profile is .. well bad... but people confuse the "software/application" calibration for the monitor... with a proper hardware device. Even so, if you set the calibration badly (too warm perhaps) the colour in a correctly synced and setup working space profile should look consistent even if the colour is not correct

                                                                           

                                                                          G

                                                                          • 34. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                            eivind80 Community Member

                                                                            Don't think I am misunderstanding although it is quite complex stuff. My workspace settings are RGB: Adobe RGB, Cmyk: Fogra39. My monitor colour set up which is set in System Preferences (and obviously not in Bridge or PS) were originally set to a factory calibrated profile, but I tested Adobe RGB for the monitor too.

                                                                             

                                                                            I also get the part of different ranges and shapes of gamut, so I see how sRGB dulls the images, and sometimes make different colours more alike because there are fewer options within its gamut. sRGB has only been an issue in Bridge's Preview Images here though.

                                                                             

                                                                            What I don't quite understand is how the workspace profile and monitor profile affect each other.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                              D Fosse Community Member

                                                                              Grant, I've been patient until now, but please stop this. Eivind understands this perfectly. He's not confusing anything. You are.

                                                                               

                                                                              EDIT: sorry, wrong address. I'll repost in case he reads by mail.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                                D Fosse Community Member

                                                                                Grant, I've been patient until now, but please stop this. Eivind understands this perfectly. He's not confusing anything. You are.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                                  Grant H Community Member

                                                                                  Don't think I am misunderstanding although it is quite complex stuff.

                                                                                  thats why i'm conscerned that you may "think" you have solved it and when printed looks a mess...

                                                                                   

                                                                                  sRGB dulls the images, and sometimes make different colours more alike because there are fewer options within its gamut. sRGB has

                                                                                   

                                                                                  ok: sRGB is usually brighter and more saturated than Adobe RGB... this is the confusing part... altho the gamut is bigger with ADOBE RGB... because it is meant for publishing, tightens up the colour range... some monitors you can choose a profile and even be "calibrated" with the software/application. But this is not accurate for DTP. If you calibrate using a device, a profile is saved, and when you boot up the graphics card uses the new profile. and sometimes you can see the monitor change colour/brightness etc when the card adjusts to the saved profile... this is just to get the colour of your monitor as accurate as possible...

                                                                                   

                                                                                  then: then your design software needs to be synced to "X" (project dependent ie. a project for a newspaper will need a different profile to a glossy mag)

                                                                                   

                                                                                  so... the applicationes need to be synced accordingly, this is different to the monitor profile...

                                                                                   

                                                                                  G

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                                    Grant H Community Member

                                                                                    Grant, I've been patient until now, but please stop this. Eivind understands this perfectly. He's not confusing anything. You are.

                                                                                    listen: you are not the OP....

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I dont think he understands completely, and needs to. Or run a risk of a irate client at print time... there is a lot more to colour, profiles and when to use what, and printing then can be discussed here... but some of the advice here is not entirely accurate and may result in him believing the colour to be close to how it will print and there is my conscern.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I'm here to help him... and get him on the right track.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Color appearing differently in different Adobe CS5 applications
                                                                                      D Fosse Community Member

                                                                                      OK, I'm out of here, I don't want to get into an open quarrel with anyone. Been there, done that.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Just get back to us when you have had the chance to try Adobe RGB on the Dell.

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