1 2 Previous Next 51 Replies Latest reply on Feb 6, 2012 2:46 PM by Peter Spier

    Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text

    123hedebenn

      I've noticed that when I select a paragraph rule to run under some text (instead of the whole column) that it runs a little too short if the text has been tracked. If there's no kerning or tracking, the rule runs the width of the text just fine. But soon as the text is stretched out the rule doesn't quite extend the entire way under the text. Is there a way to fix this? I have InDesign CS5 for Windows (ver. 7.0.4).

       

      Ed Hedemann

        • 1. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
          Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I'm using InDesign CS5.5 for Mac. I'm not seeing that problem when I test it.

           

          I'd suggest that you try restoring your preferences.

           

          http://forums.adobe.com/thread/526990

          • 2. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
            123hedebenn Level 1

            Very interesting. I tried it and it didn't work. Fortunately, I followed the step to reload my preferences so I don't think anything was lost in the process.

             

            Just to be clear: the paragraph rules are fine as long as there is no tracking. In the job I'm looking at, I have the tracking set at +250 and the rule comes up about a half character short of fully stretching across the text.

            • 3. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
              33 Steps Level 2

              I have had the same issue with extreme tracking:

               

              My solution:

              I created an underline character style

              And used as a nested style in paragraph style

              • 4. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                And how do you get that to apply to the last line, or last character ( I can see it as a GREP style applied to the last character)?

                 

                I was going to suggest adding a small amount of negative right indent to the rule, but maybe the underline is better.

                • 5. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                  33 Steps Level 2

                  I was assuming this was as an header.

                   

                  But when it is to be the last line you could insert a "special character" (section marker), in nested style add none up to special character

                  • 6. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    If you make a character style to apply an underline of the same weight and offset, you can apply it to the last charater in your paragraph using the following for the query string in a GREP style: .$

                     

                    That just says find the last character in the paragraph and it works on tracked text, too.

                    • 7. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                      123hedebenn Level 1

                      For the publication I'm working in, the paragraph rules vary in weight and offset (and length, of course) depending on the style but, if I'm not mistaken, they all have +250 tracking. Also, the text (usually a header of some sort) can also be flush left or flush right. If it's FL, the right end of the rule is short a half character; if FR, the left end of the rule is too short. Also, if centered, it's slightly short on both ends.

                       

                      I'm not familiar with GREP styles. If this is the solution, how do I create one?

                      • 8. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        GREP Styles are very similar to nested character styles, and you build them in the style definition dialog. That said, the above suggestion for using the underline is only going to work on the last cahracter in the paragraph, so won't help with right or center-aligned rules.

                         

                        The negative indents, however, WILL work, you just need to experiment a little to figure out how much to add on each end and add that to the rule specifications in the style.

                        • 9. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                          123hedebenn Level 1

                          Thank you, the negative indent did work. However, that seems to be a bit of a workaround. In other words, I assume this is an InDesign glitch (I converted the file to InDesign from Quark 8, where this problem didn't exist), at least in CS5. Assuming I'm not the only one to have this problem, was it corrected in CS5.5?

                          • 10. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            123hedebenn wrote:

                             

                            was it corrected in CS5.5?

                            It appears not.

                             

                            Yes, the indent is a workaround, but not too onerous, I think. Perhaps we can add this to the short list of things that Quark does better than ID (radial graidinets being about the only other thing on my list that are better in Quark). Would you go back to Quark over this? I sure wouldn't.

                             

                            At any rate, it looks like this has to do with how the length of rules is calculated. It might be worth filing a bug, but I don't know if really might be "as designed."

                            • 11. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                              123hedebenn Level 1

                              InDesign is far superior in many ways and generally more user-friendly. I certainly wouldn't go back to Quark because of this glitch, which appears to be an easy enough workaround, though I haven't yet applied it to all the styles with paragraph rules. Would be nice if Adobe fixed it, but if I'm the only one who's noticed the problem that might not be enough of an incentive for them to do anything about it.

                               

                              Anyway, thanks again for the negative indent suggestion.

                              • 12. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                You're welcome. I'll try to find the time to file a bug on this, but it won't hurt for you to do it too. Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

                                • 13. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                  123hedebenn Level 1

                                  I just filled out the "bug report form," but not holding my breath.

                                  • 14. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    I filed one through back channels, too. You won't hear a thing, and it probably won't get fixed for CS5.5, l3et alone CS5, but maybe by CS7 or 8 it will get squashed if it doesn't mean rewriting the way rules are implemented.

                                    • 15. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                      33 Steps Level 2

                                      Screen shot 2012-02-02 at 5.42.20 PM.png

                                      Sorry Peter I just had to put this on here:

                                      2 nested style in Paragraph Style

                                      1st nested none up to discretionary hyphen

                                      2nd nested underline

                                       

                                      I manually added a discretionary hyphen before 1st character on last line. I will try the greph and see how that works

                                      • 16. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                        No fair adding the hyphen. That'd not editing friendly, and requires manual intervention on every paragraph. Not, In my opinion a viable solution.

                                        • 17. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                          lilia@ Level 2

                                          To make the rule run the full length of the line of text... it is best to apply the leading to all characters EXCEPT the first and last.

                                          It will work then.

                                           

                                          Cheers.

                                          • 18. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                            Again, this is not a solution that lends itself to editing the document or automation when there is more than one line in your heading.

                                            • 19. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                              lilia@ Level 2

                                              the paragraph rule will only appear on one line... right? so it still works.

                                               

                                              I tested it by applying a paragraph rule to a paragraph of text with the width of the rule set to text and no offest or indents.

                                              I applied the +250 to all character except the last character.. it still works.

                                               

                                              i tested applying to all and the rule was not correct... i then removed the tracking from the last character and it shows correctly.

                                               

                                              Message was edited by: lilia@

                                              • 20. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                lilia@ Level 2

                                                I'll correct my first post... its only the last character that needs to have no tracking.

                                                • 21. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                  lilia@ Level 2

                                                  However considering wanting to use this in a paragraph style, the way it can be done is...

                                                   

                                                  create a paragraph style with a rule with 0 tracking

                                                  create a character style with 250 tracking

                                                  apply nested style through 1 end nested style character

                                                  and place that character (with a shortcut) between the last two characters

                                                   

                                                  perhaps with more thought i can think of something else.

                                                  • 22. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                    Does it work for right and center aligned text? It needs to work there, too.

                                                    • 23. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                      Better, I think, to include the tracking as part of the paragraph style, then use a GREP style to remove it from the last character -- same string as above for the underline. You want to do this in a way that does not require anyone to have to do manual insertions of special characters in every heading.

                                                      • 24. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                        lilia@ Level 2

                                                        yes it does... here are screen grabs.

                                                         

                                                        1.jpg2.jpg

                                                        • 25. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                          lilia@ Level 2

                                                          you may be right... to be honest I havent played too much with GREP... i'm still learning ID (only been using it for 2 years)... but what i have learnt i know really well... i need to, i teach it lol.

                                                           

                                                          forums are awesome... they help you think outside the square

                                                          • 26. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                            lilia@ Level 2

                                                            i guess it really depends on how the line of text is formed... if there is a fullstop at the end or a forces line break or something to nest upto, then applying a para style with +250 tracking upto the fullstop will work without inserting special characters... but i'm guessing most of the time. more info or screen grabs do help.

                                                            • 27. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                              Sounds like your solution might be viable, but I'll have to think about it, maybe play a bit in the morning. I'm concerned that removing the tracking from the last character is going to move it closer than it should be to its neighbor. In my tests, if the full stop is tracked at the end of the line the rule still falls short, but it's not quite as obvious. I think you'll see it if you leave the cursor at the end of the line.

                                                              • 28. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                lilia@ Level 2

                                                                ok i tried something else... slightly different to my first attempt...  it works.

                                                                 

                                                                FIRST ATTEMPT

                                                                create a paragraph style with a rule with 0 tracking

                                                                create a character style with 250 tracking

                                                                apply nested style through 1 end nested style character

                                                                and place that character (with a shortcut) between the last two characters

                                                                 

                                                                REVISED with no special characters

                                                                create a paragraph style with a rule with 0 tracking

                                                                create a character style with 250 tracking

                                                                apply nested style upto 1 forced line break

                                                                • 29. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                  lilia@ Level 2

                                                                  or... if its important to have the style with +250 instead of 0 then how I worked it out is....

                                                                   

                                                                  create a paragraph style with a rule with +250 tracking

                                                                  create a character style with 0 tracking

                                                                  apply 2 nested styles: none thru 1 forced line break and 0 tracking through 1 forced line break.

                                                                   

                                                                  i think it's the forced line break that makes it work, doesn't work with other options.

                                                                   

                                                                  woot woot

                                                                  • 30. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                    @ Lilia,

                                                                     

                                                                    Forced line breaks are special characters, too.

                                                                     

                                                                    But here's the good news. I tested your theory this morning about not applying the tracking to the last character and it DOES work for all alignment options, and it does not move the last character's position, so it is viable, in fact excellent, when applied using the GREP style. So for headings (or any other tracked paragarph that needs a Rule Below set to text width and where the text is tracked with a positive value) you want to create a 0 tracking character style and apply it to the last character inthe paragraph using .$

                                                                     

                                                                    The tracking value should be added to the basic character format of the paragraph style:

                                                                    0Track GREP Style 2.png

                                                                    The character style should do nothing but assign a tracking value of 0:

                                                                    0Track.png

                                                                    And that character style should be applied as a GREP Style like this:

                                                                    0Track GREP Style.png

                                                                     

                                                                    No special characters and comletely automatic, and the text can be edited at will, or the formatting in the style can be changed and it will continue to work.

                                                                     

                                                                    Well done.

                                                                     

                                                                    By the way, welcome to the forum. If you want to learn about GREP, and you should, both as a teacher and an obviously talented user, I highly recommend Peter Kahrel's primer from O'Reilly: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596156015.do which is a real bargain at $9.99 and available as PDF, Mobi or ePub. GREP is incredibly powerful, and actually not terribly difficult to learn (and the Find/Change dialog in ID has most of the commonly used metacharacters in the dropdowns if you have trouble memorizing). There are many users here who will be glad to help you learn GREP, including Peter K, if you run into a stumbling block and post a question.

                                                                     

                                                                    I'm also going to update my bug report from last night to include your workaround. It might point the engineers toward an easy way to fix the code so none of this will be necessary someday.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                      123hedebenn Level 1

                                                                      Very creative workaround. I don't know if this is what you meant, but I found that simply applying the 0-tracking character style to the last letter in the line seems to have fixed the problem, whether the text is FL, FR, or centered.

                                                                       

                                                                      However, I don't know what you mean by "none thru 1" or "line breaks." The texts I'm working with are generally running heads where line breaks aren't an issue.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                        Lilia was trying to use a forced line break to trigger a nested style as a form of automation. In my opinion that's NOT a good solution, but the 0 tracking on the last character is excellent, whether you apply it manually or use the GREP style I illustrated in my last post.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                          123hedebenn Level 1

                                                                          Ah, I see. Well, it does seem simpler just to apply the 0-tracking character style on the last character in the line rather than get involved with GREP styles or nesting. Not sure why that works irrespective of the line alignment but it appears to.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                            The GREP style is an automated solution that prevents you from having to do this over and over to every heading, and because it is built into the style it is not going to get left behind if at some point an editor says "get rid of those rules and tighten up the tracking." Admittedly, setting the tacking as an override may be pretty harmless, but it's bad practice to do things with overrides that should be done in a style instead, and we like to foster good habits here.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                              lilia@ Level 2

                                                                              Thanks Peter

                                                                               

                                                                              I haven't really learnt GREP or the interactive side of ID... I have played with it... but I can't say I'm good at it... certainly not good enough to answer questions on it.

                                                                              I teach for a newspaper company, and the employees are mainly print designers. I will get to it, but ID is not the only product I teach... so there is alot on my plate and I do hope to get to it really soon.

                                                                               

                                                                              The forums are fun and informative... and I do love the challenge of working problems out. Happy to help where I can and learn along the way.

                                                                               

                                                                              Lilia x

                                                                              • 36. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                                lilia@ wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                The forums are fun and informative... and I do love the challenge of working problems out. Happy to help where I can and learn along the way.

                                                                                 

                                                                                You remind me of me. That's exactly how I got started here. Amazing what you can learn, even when you think you know the answer. You gave me my lesson for the week yesterday.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                                  123hedebenn Level 1

                                                                                  Very good point about using GREP. Since I hadn't used those styles before (or even knew what the acronym stood for), I was unclear about the advantages. Yes, I quite agree that setting the style correctly rather than resorting to overrides is good practice. I'm about to begin my new job with the convert Quark file and, so far, all the paragraph rules look good. Now, hopefully, there aren't any other "issues" from the conversion that'll suddenly appear.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                                    Coverted files can sometimes do strange things unexpectedly. Best practice is after conversion immediately (or now) export the file to .idml (or .inx pre-CS5) and open that, save as a new .indd and use that. It can clear out little problems that turn into big ones later.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Paragraph Rules Run Too Short Under Text
                                                                                      lilia@ Level 2

                                                                                      123hedebenn wrote:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I'm about to begin my new job with the convert Quark file and, so far, all the paragraph rules look good. Now, hopefully, there aren't any other "issues" from the conversion that'll suddenly appear.

                                                                                      there will be issues... and the main one is that ALL of your text boxes with automatically have runaround switched on or text wrap on text frames as it's called in ID. good luck with that.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Message was edited by: lilia@ ... unless that bug's been fixed...

                                                                                      1 2 Previous Next